On the Origin of Morality: The Sam Harris v Wm Lane Craig debate pt 2

reply to post by WarminIndy

I wonder, would Sam Harris think I am a psychopath and delusional?

No.

And, it's not that I just 'know about' or 'heard about' The Horse Whisperer (and all the other 'whisperers'), I WAS a "Horse Whisperer."
And am also a "Kid Whisperer."

The point of The Horse Whisperer is how traumatized Pilgrim (the horse) was after his rider (Grace) was injured in an accident, and his friend 'Gulliver' and Gulliver's rider (Judith) were killed in the same accident.
Pilgrim tried to save them all from a semi that hit them on an icy road.

He was devastated. Only the 'whisperer' could discern how traumatized, how compassionate and heroic, and devastated Pilgrim was that he'd "Failed" to protect his girl and the others.

It's a wrenching, tragic story.

I'm also reminded of the WILD dolphin seeking out the human diver for help with a fishing hook and line caught on his fin...and other dolphins who KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS PREGNANT.

I spend all day with my pets, have done so for years. I KNOW what they want, when they want it. I SEE them acting in selfish ways, and in compassionate ways...I UNDERSTAND them. People don't have to believe me, but it's true.

reply to post by wildtimes


you should have took it to the dealer eh? cheapo maybe...

I am sorry the warehouse does not stock parts for your ashtray or your specific model disposable Bic lighter vehicle, there are aftermarket choices available though.

if you need a new engine, give is a call back...

reply to post by adjensen


You and I agree that rape, among other things are wrong, but only from a modern human viewpoint, I think.

When the Hebrews "raped" the virgins who were considered booty from their conquests, they didn't think that they were doing anything wrong. Apparently, their God said it was "good". Were they wrong or was objective morality temporarily suspended on their behalf, or were we not ready to receive God's divine commandment on that particular aspect of morality at that time in our human development?

reply to post by SisyphusRide


It's a HONDA ACCORD! Not a Bic disposable vehicle.
And the problem was diagnosed by removing the ashtray and accessing the computer port that lies behind it.

You just aren't very good at this stuff, Sis. lol

reply to post by SisyphusRide

I don't respond well to attacks, I'm working on it though.

But you're GREAT at dishing out the attacks!!

when I surround myself with intellectuals I become one them...

You ARE surrounded by intellectuals; and have not indicated you've "become one of them". You said you felt "gang-banged"!!

You're so out of your league here, dude.

reply to post by wildtimes


it's a disposable vehicle... I love Honda and Toyota though so you made a wise choice.

you'll still be blessed with that check-out fee trust me, if you decide to pick it up without them ordering the part for you.

btw, they mark up 30% above list price, it's allowed by law... and they get it for 30% under list price... that is the dealer discount for businesses.

they will make 60% profit on mark up off of you... you should get it at the dealer yourself and have your bf install it.

that's simple stuff... I wished that's what being a mechanic meant, it's a belssing when I get to do brakes! I get the heavyweight stuff.

SisyphusRide

AfterInfinity
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

List your points one by one. Put 'em up. Let's have it all.

edit on 5-12-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

maybe we should do a new video and new thread... of the oppositions choosing?

this thread is already torn to hell thanks to your gracious appearance in it

I don't respond well to attacks, I'm working on it though.

when I surround myself with intellectuals I become one them...

but when I surround myself with atheistic "do what ever we wanters" I stoop... its a fact of life.

survival of the fittest eh?

You need other intellectuals surrounding you before you are intellectual???

As a rational, thinking, intelligent, intellectual person, I find that I am intellectual all the time.

And this forum has descended to Ad Hominem, like every thread does eventually.

Let me give you a little advice, before you take on the other side's arguments, at least know what they believe in first. That way you can know where to rebut without sounding like attacking. AfterInfinity might sound like he's attacking, but really what he is doing is just forcing you into a corner to get you to open a loophole. You should realize he is using strategy.

Think of debate as a chess match. When you make a post comment, consider whether or not your words will have an open, because if they do, someone else will catch it. I did, and I'm supposed to be on your side.

But think of AfterInfinty as a chess opponent rather than the enemy, you might get further in your debates. And as far as you tearing Sam Harris up, I really don't think you have the ability to just yet. That's my Christian advice, AfterInfinity is not your enemy, so don't treat him like that. AfterIfinity is just working through a lot in his own mind, as we all are.

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

You and I agree that rape, among other things are wrong, but only from a modern human viewpoint, I think.

When the Hebrews "raped" the virgins who were considered booty from their conquests, they didn't think that they were doing anything wrong.

And with your subjective morality, you would have to agree with them, that they weren't doing anything wrong, because they thought it a moral act. I, on the other hand, can point to objective morality to say that it was wrong, regardless of what they thought of it.

That is the deficiency of subjective morality -- you have no basis to judge the actions of anyone else, ever. You can't even say that rape today is wrong, because to you, it is nothing more than opinion -- to you, and to the person being raped, it is immoral; to the rapist, it is moral, and you have no basis for telling him that it is not.

WarminIndy
You need other intellectuals surrounding you before you are intellectual???

As a rational, thinking, intelligent, intellectual person, I find that I am intellectual all the time.

And this forum has descended to Ad Hominem, like every thread does eventually.

Let me give you a little advice, before you take on the other side's arguments, at least know what they believe in first. That way you can know where to rebut without sounding like attacking. AfterInfinity might sound like he's attacking, but really what he is doing is just forcing you into a corner to get you to open a loophole. You should realize he is using strategy.

Think of debate as a chess match. When you make a post comment, consider whether or not your words will have an open, because if they do, someone else will catch it. I did, and I'm supposed to be on your side.

But think of AfterInfinty as a chess opponent rather than the enemy, you might get further in your debates. And as far as you tearing Sam Harris up, I really don't think you have the ability to just yet. That's my Christian advice, AfterInfinity is not your enemy, so don't treat him like that. AfterIfinity is just working through a lot in his own mind, as we all are.

we are all only a product of our environment...

maybe we can start off with a shorter video? 30mins or an hour?

atheists in these debates are good at only one thing, and that is making people giggle or laugh when they start to speak and before they get to their point.

this doesn't mean you are a good debater or an intellectual... it means you are a comedian, and a joke!

wildtimes
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I wonder, would Sam Harris think I am a psychopath and delusional?

No.

And, it's not that I just 'know about' or 'heard about' The Horse Whisperer (and all the other 'whisperers'), I WAS a "Horse Whisperer."
And am also a "Kid Whisperer."

The point of The Horse Whisperer is how traumatized Pilgrim (the horse) was after his rider (Grace) was injured in an accident, and his friend 'Gulliver' and Gulliver's rider (Judith) were killed in the same accident.
Pilgrim tried to save them all from a semi that hit them on an icy road.

He was devastated. Only the 'whisperer' could discern how traumatized, how compassionate and heroic, and devastated Pilgrim was that he'd "Failed" to protect his girl and the others.

It's a wrenching, tragic story.

I'm also reminded of the WILD dolphin seeking out the human diver for help with a fishing hook and line caught on his fin...and other dolphins who KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS PREGNANT.

I spend all day with my pets, have done so for years. I KNOW what they want, when they want it. I SEE them acting in selfish ways, and in compassionate ways...I UNDERSTAND them. People don't have to believe me, but it's true.

edit on 12/5/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

I think you probably are a good kid whisperer. I never had them, so I don't, but I see a lot of potential in children that others don't. I pick up on those things and do what I can for them.

I had a cockatiel that used to talk to me, answered the phone like I did and even imitated my limp in walking. I was always amazed by him. I know what you mean.

reply to post by adjensen

I, on the other hand, can point to objective morality to say that it was wrong, regardless of what they thought of it.

Thanks, dale.

So, how many of us on this thread believe in objective morality?
I know I do. I believe AfterInfinity does.

But we must contain "objective" to the human sphere for purposes of this debate; not extend it to all of creation. Humans are deeply social creatures; with reason and intelligence. I simply do not see 'religion' as the only source of morality.

While you have excellent debate skills, and are able to say that Craig "won" in terms of 'formal debate' (and I do not - I took debate in high school, but am still learning what all the terms mean) - what do you think of Harris's points?

on street level... Harris and Dawkins would get slapped in their mouths they tried that crap!

there's professionalism at street level too.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

atheists in these debates are good at only one thing, and that is making people giggle or laugh when they start to speak and before they get to their point.

this doesn't mean you are a good debater or an intellectual... it means you are a comedian, and a joke!

More attacking.
From someone who does NOT understand atheists. The chuckles that Harris got after some of his comments were because he was obviously RIGHT.
Craig couldn't even answer the questions put to him in the Q/A follow-uyp, and outright REFUSED to even entertain one of the first few.

SisyphusRide

WarminIndy

we are all only a product of our environment...

I am going to disagree with this one, very heartily.

I am not the product of the environment I grew up in and neither do I let the internet environment define what I become.

That's a lazy response, that doesn't require intelligence or intellect. Maybe you are the product of your environment. If you get rattled by everything said on the internet, then maybe you don't have a good grasp on what you really, truly say you believe in.

reply to post by WarminIndy


you are a product of the environment you are in now, and you possess the qualities good or bad of the home you grew up in.

PS; street level professionalism is called RESPECT

reply to post by SisyphusRide

PS; street level professionalism is called RESPECT

Oh, and you've been SO RESPECTFUL of other people's opinions. (not)

Like I said: out of your league.

wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

I, on the other hand, can point to objective morality to say that it was wrong, regardless of what they thought of it.

Thanks, dale.

So, how many of us on this thread believe in objective morality?
I know I do. I believe AfterInfinity does.

But we must contain "objective" to the human sphere for purposes of this debate; not extend it to all of creation. Humans are deeply social creatures; with reason and intelligence. I simply do not see 'religion' as the only source of morality.

While you have excellent debate skills, and are able to say that Craig "won" in terms of 'formal debate' (and I do not - I took debate in high school, but am still learning what all the terms mean) - what do you think of Harris's points?

wildtimes

I am still on the fence about it. While I do believe morality does come from God, I also see that morality being tossed aside by His believers.

I never took debate in school, so I don't know all the terms.

Adjensen is a great debater, I went to the Debate Forum and read some of his debates, excellent work.

But notice, I said God, not religion. In my relationship with God, I look for things that are pleasing and displeasing in my actions. So I confer that to what I learn from Him. But it is inward, and some of the things I believe go against religion. So there must be some things that are very God-defined and some things left to us to search out what is right.

I think there is an objective morality for all humans, no matter who or where they are. My brother pointed out the other day that the one moral view for all cultures is "do not kill". That seems to be the one point of morality for everyone, so it must be objective.

But at the same time, there seems to be subjective morality. I don't know at what point an objective morality becomes subjective. It must come when an individual embraces the objective and makes it subjective.

I think my view of God is that He exists beyond just the Judeo/Christian view. Maybe that's why the context of the question is difficult for me.

wildtimes
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

PS; street level professionalism is called RESPECT

Oh, and you've been SO RESPECTFUL of other people's opinions. (not)

Like I said: out of your league.

edit on 12/5/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

bring it on! I am aggressive to AfterInfinity because of their tactics and flawed logic.

you make a joke on somebody in the environment I grew up in (Arl Virginia) you'll get a beating, right in the mouth. That is unless the individuals are friends..

I do not respect AfterInfinity's opinions no... nor do I Dawkins, Dawkins is the bane on my existence, if someone other than myself mentions his name I go ape!

-pun intended

reply to post by SisyphusRide


I'm not attacking you, I'm asking you to present a well-composed argument in favor of your position. Is that too much to ask? I'm sorry, I thought this was ATS. Must be the wrong website.

you make wise crack jokes on someone you don't know or on their personal honor, in some place like Detroit or LA you'll get a cap in your arse!