CERN: Higgs-Boson decays to two fermions!

The Higgs-Boson has been split into two once again! Two Fermions, that is.

(EDIT: This seems to be quite major news. Please read Snoopy11's post, the seventh one under the OP, for a description/definition of what this means. He/she made it clear to me - I didn't realize it when I posted this thread but suspected it might be, but not this major. Thanks Snoopy!)

Source, CERN itself:

home.web.cern.ch...

The ATLAS experiment at CERN has released preliminary results that show evidence that the Higgs boson decays to two tau particles. Taus belong to a group of subatomic particles called the fermions, which make up matter. This result – measured at 4.1 sigma on the 5-point scale particle physicists use to determine the certainty of a result – is the first evidence for a Higgs decay to fermions.

And

This important finding was made possible through careful analysis of data produced by the LHC during its first run. Only with new data will physicists be able to determine if the compatibility remains or if other new models become viable. Fortunately, the next LHC run, which begins in 2015, is expected to produce several times the existing data sample. In addition, the proton collisions will be at higher energies, producing Higgs bosons at higher rates.

Here's a link to the original paper and not the news article:

atlas.ch...

...which includes a picture of one of the events which caused this commotion:



From the original paper, in a section on "why this is important":

The Higgs boson lives only for a short time and disintegrates into other particles. The various possibilities of the final states are called decay modes. So far, ATLAS physicists had found evidence that the Higgs boson decays into different types of gauge bosons (see Box), the kind of elementary particles that carry forces. The other family of fundamental particles, the fermions, make up matter. The tau (represented by the Greek letter τ) is a fermion and behaves like a very massive electron.

The Wikipedia page on the ATLAS experiment, which discovered this new data:

en.wikipedia.org...

Explain to a non-scientist what a Fermion is and why this is important. I'm guessing that it means....Well, I have no idea what it means. However, I am very curious.

Let my non scientific mind give it a shot as I understand it.

The Higgs-Boson particle is called the God Particle because (as they just proved) it creates matter.

We are currently accepting applications to the Church of The Particle. Tax exempt status to follow shortly.

the billions of dollars in construction costs, along with the tens of thousands of man hours by scientists and engineers over the span of ten years and this is what is important??...I've always thought there is more to this, but, aside from scientific curiosity, I have heard nothing that justifies this amount of treasure and toil.

lostbook
Explain to a non-scientist what a Fermion is and why this is important. I'm guessing that it means....Well, I have no idea what it means. However, I am very curious.

As another non-scientist, I take it that Femions make up matter. They include all the quarks, the leptons, and other very physical particles.

Here's the Wikipedia page on fermions:

en.wikipedia.org...

___________________

So, to ask the scientists among us, if the Higg-Boson gives substance to matter, but splits into two particles which make up matter, then what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

And this news, which seems fairly major, is one of those things lost in the focus on ISON, sort of like after a major event like the JFK assassination news came out that, oh yeah, Aldous Huxley died the same day.

reply to post by jimmyx


There is more to this. 99.9% of Scientists are atheists. They are working hard to prove they are right. Personally I think that proof of no God is way overdue. Religion is truly the root of all evil. Until it goes the way of the dinosaur people will always fight.

reply to post by Mamatus


The name "The God Particle" was just a nickname created by Leon Lederman, who then wrote a book with that title. It is not a literal pushing of the Higgs-Boson into the realm of religion. Goddess bless you.

This is important because the Higgs when it is attached to force carrying particles it decays to those force carrying particles.

Fermions are the subatomic particles which make up real matter.

While it was known that Higgs bosons gave mass to force carrying particles.

There was no proof that it gave mass to ordinary matter particles, until now that is.

Proof of Higgs decaying to fermions means it gives mass to fermions.

It seems the Higgs is indeed responsible for how things gain mass and therefore inertia and all that kind of stuff.

We still have a lot to learn about Higgs....

reply to post by Aleister


I did not intend it to be literal.

May the wood fairies dance around the fire with you. (same thing to me as God Bless you)

snoopy11
This is important because the Higgs when it is attached to force carrying particles it decays to those force carrying particles.

Fermions are the subatomic particles which make up real matter.

While it was known that Higgs bosons gave mass to force carrying particles.

There was no proof that it gave mass to ordinary matter particles, until now that is.

Proof of Higgs decaying to fermions means it gives mass to fermions.

It seems the Higgs is indeed responsible for how things gain mass and therefore inertia and all that kind of stuff.

We still have a lot to learn about Higgs....

Thanks, that explains it nicely.

So if this is at least tentative proof, and is a factor in inertia, the dragging image we see of the Higgs in public consumption cartoons is more literal than metaphorical?

Mamatus
reply to post by Aleister

 

I did not intend it to be literal.

May the wood fairies dance around the fire with you. (same thing to me as God Bless you)

edit on 30-11-2013 by Mamatus because: added content.

I like that, and is close to what I said, Goddess Bless You. I actually saw the flower fairies once, but that is quite off topic when talking about the building force of the entire physical universe.....or is it?

On topic: So this discovery will be one of the things the CERN scientists will be anxious to doubly confirm once the LHC gets whirling again. Counting the days until it's up and running in '15.

What's the end game? There is no endgame just questions we don't even know to ask yet. Maybe Merlin built a mini hadron collider and harnassed the power of wizardry and all things hairy potter.

Who knows maybe with the application of fermions we can finally do away with breast implants and grow em for real.

Very interesting findings. I've been following this research (as far as I can understand it) for awhile now. I'm sure in the near future, there will be some pretty advanced matter-related tech coming from where this research is going.

Mamatus
reply to post by jimmyx

 

There is more to this. 99.9% of Scientists are atheists. They are working hard to prove they are right. Personally I think that proof of no God is way overdue. Religion is truly the root of all evil. Until it goes the way of the dinosaur people will always fight.

That's pretty baseless. Ever heard of Mao Zedong? So much for peace loving atheists (unless you count 40–70 million people dead as peace).. Let's not turn this into yet another anti-religion/anti-atheism debate thread, if you want to talk about religion, go find one of those threads, there are tons of'em.

reply to post by kx12x


A bit off topic: Atheists have become a religion unto themselves......

What I hate about all this is it's not improving our world, it's just reaffirming what we thought we already knew. Its not allowing us to live more comfortably or to live longer or to save the children. You see what I mean? It's just something for physicists to pass around and boast about when being interviewed.

If this knowledge is used to make a real difference, THAT is news.

Aleister


Thanks, that explains it nicely.

So if this is at least tentative proof, and is a factor in inertia, the dragging image we see of the Higgs in public consumption cartoons is more literal than metaphorical?

I should probably clarify further.

The Higgs field is only responsible for the rest mass of elementary Fermions in the standard model. Thus the Higgs is what gives electrons, quarks and other elementary Fermions their rest masses. So Higgs is what gives particles or matter in this case their initial inertial rest mass.

The picture gets cloudier with masses that move and also gravity comes into the picture, we have no proof of particles of gravity or gravitons as to produce a graviton would require a huge amount of energy that we concievably will never produce.

snoopy11

Aleister


Thanks, that explains it nicely.

So if this is at least tentative proof, and is a factor in inertia, the dragging image we see of the Higgs in public consumption cartoons is more literal than metaphorical?

I should probably clarify further.

The Higgs field is only responsible for the rest mass of elementary Fermions in the standard model. Thus the Higgs is what gives electrons, quarks and other elementary Fermions their rest masses. So Higgs is what gives particles or matter in this case their initial inertial rest mass.

The picture gets cloudier with masses that move and also gravity comes into the picture, we have no proof of particles of gravity or gravitons as to produce a graviton would require a huge amount of energy that we concievably will never produce.

Yes, but the graviton would mirror a shadow into the Higg's furthest outreach, and would leave an impression of some sort (I don't know what I'm talking about, and have some attention on the Ohio-Michigan game, which is turning into a classic of some kind which I also don't understand). The Higg's only new addition to the graviton involves time.

Oh, by the way, I want to mention your post explaining the discovery to the top of my first post, you've made it clear to me how big of a deal this is, and it's very interesting. Thank you.

reply to post by Aleister


This is very interesting.. and I follow this particle closely.

However what's 'funny' I guess, is that the Higgs refuses to
provide hints to things such as supersymmetric partners,
extra dimensions or why the dissymmetry between matter
and antimatter in the early universe.

So this fundamental research is critical and important and
in fact we need more of it, not less of it.. so that SOMEDAY
it might lead to food for children and all the goodies
which technology CAN provide, but often does NOT provide
because the humans in charge don't care. But eventually
technology might be overwhelming enough, that the 1%
will let some crumbs fall to the children under their
table, because it costs them basically nothing.. that's
the 'Star Trek future'.

KPB

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by Aleister

 

This is very interesting.. and I follow this particle closely.

However what's 'funny' I guess, is that the Higgs refuses to
provide hints to things such as supersymmetric partners,
extra dimensions or why the dissymmetry between matter
and antimatter in the early universe.

So this fundamental research is critical and important and
in fact we need more of it, not less of it.. so that SOMEDAY
it might lead to food for children and all the goodies
which technology CAN provide, but often does NOT provide
because the humans in charge don't care. But eventually
technology might be overwhelming enough, that the 1%
will let some crumbs fall to the children under their
table, because it costs them basically nothing.. that's
the 'Star Trek future'.

KPB

So you're talking the end game that one of the posters aboves asks. What is the end game of this news. That the top 1 percent (or much less actually) will let more of their crumbs fall off the table (or maybe even give a sit-down feast a few times a year) due to how it will make the concept of money either obsolete or much lessened in power control? So that everyone gets to play some of the time, and all of the things that Christ was talking about concerning the poor - who are always with us, apparently, both the poor and the stuff that Christ and all the rest of them went on about, because it's been almost proven that the Higgs boson gives mass to matter? You may have that right.

jonnywhite
What I hate about all this is it's not improving our world, it's just reaffirming what we thought we already knew. Its not allowing us to live more comfortably or to live longer or to save the children. You see what I mean? It's just something for physicists to pass around and boast about when being interviewed.

If this knowledge is used to make a real difference, THAT is news.

edit on 30-11-2013 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

I hope it does too, the one poster was pretty optimistic that it would, the "Star Trek universe on earth" which is where society has to head someday, and for all we know maybe this news somehow is the pebble that was loosened that eventually turned into some kind of peaceful bunch of pebbles.