Tired of Anti-US Americans

Bush won the election, get over it..You are still an American, aren't you?

Diebold GAVE the election to Bush, he didn't win anything.

The only thing to "get over" is the fact that we no longer have control of our nation, as the voting process is corrupt, and unaccountable, and largely in the hands of a private, and republican-run company.

All that aside though...yes, I am still an American, and yes, I support our troops. Despite any ill feelings towards our Moron in Chief, our soldiers are doing more than any other force in history to minimize casualties. We gave ample warnings to those in Fallujah to go to a safer place...through leaflets, drive around loudspeakers, and utilization of speakers usually used for prayer calls. I regularly correspond with several soldiers our workplace have "adopted" in a sense, and participate in care packages for them. I have close friends in nearly every branch of service (many of whom are over there), and I want to see them all come home...and I hope the Iraqis get a stable government, whether US puppet state or not, soon...

Originally posted by Frith
There are no attacking armies in Iraq other than the U.S./coalition/INC forces at this point in time. By that fact alone its 100% evident that the soldiers are purposefully targetting civilians. Now whether they are purposefully targetting non-combatant civilians is a different matter, but its a reality that civilians ARE the targets of the coalition's attack.

'By that fact alone its 100% evident that the soldiers are purposefully targetting civilians' - This makes no sense. Americans are in the
area so therefore that equates with them purposefully targetting
civilians? That doesn't make any sense at all. Sorry Frith, but
your 'it's a matter of reality' makes me wonder what reality you
are seeing??

Either someone is a civilian, or they are a combatant.
Americans do not purposefully target civilians. THAT
IS THE FACT. If we didn't care about civilians, we wouldn't have given
them time to get out of Fallujah. We would have just nuked the
whole vermon infested city.

I do not want the United States engaged in illegal and unnecessary wars. So I do not want the United States to "win" such wars.

[edit on 18-11-2004 by Frith]

I'd just like to know where you get illegal war out of the whole thing, the UN approved the final resolution, congress and the senate appoved the use of force, The Iraqi's spent the last 12 years doing everything they could to skirt around the treaty they signed when they lost the first time, shooting at our planes in the no fly zone. Then Koffi Annan calls the war illegal and the French/Germans/Russians opposse the war, well I guess I would too if such a personal cash cow, making me billions of $$$$$ on the oil for food was going to be cut off, but thats a whole different story.

You all say you support the troops which is fabulous, but how many of you are just as quick to condemn that Marine for doing what he did??

Originally posted by Frith
the UN with its resolutions did not sign off on this attack,
so its 100% illegal.

The UN doesn't run the world. That corrupt cesspool likes to
think it does, but it doesn't. There is no such thing as
an illegal war just because the UN doesn't like the way things
are going.

Considering the FACT that the UN security council nea-sayers
(France, Germany, Russia) were BOUGHT OFF by Saddam with
stolen Oil for Food $$$$ - that pretty much kills any discussion
on relevance of the U.N. to anything.

BTW - According to your logic, Bill Clinton waged an illegal war
in the Balkins when he went in (without UN 'approval' and without
a coalition of any kind) and got Slobo out of the Balkins.

Originally posted by Gazrok
our soldiers are doing more than any other force in history to minimize casualties.

and I hope the Iraqis get a stable government, whether US puppet state or not, soon...

I'm glad you said these things. Our soldiers absolutely DO try to
minimize casualties. That's common sense. And I totally agree
with you, I too hope the Iraqis get a stable government soon.
It will take some work, but I'm sure it can happen - DESPITE
the fact that France, Germany, and Russia didn't want the Iraqis
to be free.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The UN doesn't run the world. That corrupt cesspool likes to
think it does, but it doesn't. There is no such thing as
an illegal war just because the UN doesn't like the way things
are going.

Laws exist to be abided by. If you do not follow the currently accepted laws of conflict engagement, then those laws should not exist. Since the United States won't even pay attention to world law that it agreed to, then it either needs to be punished for disobeying rules it agreed to or divest itself of world law altogether and be treated as a country that does not follow such rules.

Considering the FACT that the UN security council nea-sayers
(France, Germany, Russia) were BOUGHT OFF by Saddam with
stolen Oil for Food $$$$ - that pretty much kills any discussion
on relevance of the U.N. to anything.

Considering the FACT that neither the UN nor the United States found anything concerning WMD, the relevance of the UN not joining in this invasion seems to be quite based upon logic. All allegations of bribery to conclude why the UN didn't join in the invasion fail as a result.

BTW - According to your logic, Bill Clinton waged an illegal war
in the Balkins when he went in (without UN 'approval' and without
a coalition of any kind) and got Slobo out of the Balkins.

Sure, why not? Somebody somewhere has to follow the rule of law. I didn't vote for the man either just so you know.

Originally posted by redpig01
I'd just like to know where you get illegal war out of the whole thing, the UN approved the final resolution, congress and the senate appoved the use of force, The Iraqi's spent the last 12 years doing everything they could to skirt around the treaty they signed when they lost the first time, shooting at our planes in the no fly zone. Then Koffi Annan calls the war illegal and the French/Germans/Russians opposse the war, well I guess I would too if such a personal cash cow, making me billions of $$$$$ on the oil for food was going to be cut off, but thats a whole different story.

I do not need explain the legalities of why the invasion of Iraq is illegal. You can read for yourself why this is so here.

You all say you support the troops which is fabulous, but how many of you are just as quick to condemn that Marine for doing what he did??

I don't support the troops nor the actions of invdividual troops who commit additional crimes. Soldiers, IMO, are as culpable for engaging in illegal actions as those who force them to do it. The only soldiers I could consider supporting are those who disobey their orders and get court martialed/jailed for doing such.

This Iraqi war is unconstitutional. The Constitution forbids meddling in other countries' affairs...like "regime change," "install democracy," and all that crap.

Not to mention that democracy is not a good form of government. The USA is NOT a democracy; rather it's supposed to be a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

Saddam wasn't a real threat. He's not a cuddly, lovable guy, but he wasn't a threat to us.

Now I love America. I just don't like when people think the Constitution is only good for toilet paper and just do whatever they want for their own gain. Like oil.

So I guess my country should jump and say "ruff" like a good doggie next time the USA presents us with faulty evidence of WMD's?

Fine. Don't come and help us. See if I care.

I totally agree with you.
I can't stand Bush and his Neo-christian ultra conservative agenda.I dont think the Iraq sitiation was handled correctly but TS, thtas the way it is. I can deal with it.
It is a soldier's job to kill the enemy. Why do we have to nail them to a tree everytime it happens. Could any of you do a soldiers job better? What with all the political BS adding to the strain of combat? I DONT THINK SO!

People need to air their feelings about being scammed--

...lied to--

...deceived--

...tricked--

...cheated--

...talked over---

...patronized--

...ignored--

...bamboozled.

... We're >ALL< sick of what we are seeing; and what we hear from the lap-dog lackey media doesn't adequately FILL IN THE INFORMATION that comes to us in photos.

... It's just more horrible than we can imagine; and we don't know how to stop it.

... I just keep wondering: If the CIA is supposedly protecting the Constitution and the peoples' interests, what the flock are they DOING--sitting on their hands?????????????????????????

Originally posted by edsinger
Oil = With the money spent, we are looking at a 10+ year payback at $50 a barrel........Not a wise investement.......Oil is involved, but not for the US it is the World price that might be part of it and what saddam was doing with his ill gotten goodies.

Laws exist to be abided by!!!!!

What a load of tosh...

Laws exist because they reflect a particular popular piont of view at a particular time, remember laws are made up by politicians/diplomats according to what suits them and their ambitions.

When the prevailing opinion changes, so often do laws...

As an outsider it amuses me to see Americans seeing someone like Micheal
Moore as being un American, when freedom of speech (1st Constitutional Amendment no less) is so much a part of the American Ideal.

There is an Australian, David Hicks, being held at Guantanemo Bay. He has been held for over a year without formal charges being prefered against him, he is neither being treated as a criminal nor a prisoner of war. His treatment would have men like Thomas Jefferson spinning in their graves...

If the founding fathers of America could see today what Justice in their country has become they would remove George Dubya themselves...

My country Australia, is a bloody joke, it's constitution is a farce, we have no bill of rights, even freedom of speech is only "implied by extension of English Common law", I've left more worthy marks on a bit of loo paper...

America has about the best constitution of any country in the world, it's up to Americans to live up to its lofty ideals and do themselves proud once again...

Originally posted by edsinger
Oil = With the money spent, we are looking at a 10+ year payback at $50 a barrel........Not a wise investement.......Oil is involved, but not for the US it is the World price that might be part of it and what saddam was doing with his ill gotten goodies.

You said it, WE are looking at a 10+ year payback at 50$ per barrel. WE as in the average citizen. BushCo didn't invad iraq for oil so Americans could profit, he did it so his rich a$$hole friends at Haliburton and the Carlyle Group could. Then there are the reconstruction bids paying out rediculous amounts of money to more of BushCo's buddies. Who picks up the tab?? Dead Iraqi citizens and your average American Joe. Thats who. And the top 2% of the wealthy will be laughing their asses off because they got away with it due to people like you supporting the BS reasons we went there. SAD.

Your position seems to be very clear LogansRun, and you call a spade a spade and engage people of a different opinion to consider the consequences of their blinkered vision. This is all very good.

But I have a question.

Are you over 30?

LOL.

Originally posted by JamesBlonde

I can't stand Bush and his Neo-christian ultra conservative agenda

Conservative in what sense. therir behaviour in overturning commomly held values, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights seems revolutionary in some part. Neo-Christian - what's that apart from a game that 'neo - Christians' would find quite opposite

.I dont think the Iraq sitiation was handled correctly but TS, thtas the way it is. I can deal with it.
It doesn't mean we have to continue the grisly game, ad infinitum
It is a soldier's job to kill the enemy.

Not in a situation of an illegal war , with illegal acts continuing. Post-Nuremberg, it's a soldier's duty to refuse illegal orders
Why do we have to nail them to a tree everytime it happens. Could any of you do a soldiers job better? What with all the political BS adding to the strain of combat? I DONT THINK SO!

They're not Christ like figures. Just regular Joes or Jerks, obeying orders . Yeah, they don't need nailing to any tree, just the controllers who hand down the orders

[edit on 18-11-2004 by dh]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Your position seems to be very clear LogansRun, and you call a spade a spade and engage people of a different opinion to consider the consequences of their blinkered vision. This is all very good.

But I have a question.

Are you over 30?

LOL.

For the record, I am 26. What is the point of your question? How old are you Avatar?

Im sorry, it seems all of you have missed his point. Unless you are or were a soilder you would not understand what he is actually trying to convey. Our soilders are in other countries doing a job, regardless to what there beliefs and thoughts might be on the conflict they are facing. Thier mission is too complete an objective given to them by thier superiors, these young men and women face death every single moment of the day while on active duty. When they get the oppertunity to read or find out how things are at home and they hear how so many are against what they are doing there this makes thier job that much harder. We need to support our troops, which means send a message out to them letting them no "Hey Soilders, we are here, we will always thank you for no matter what conflict you are fighting because you are our brave and few that choose to take the responsibilities that most would not." I no how hard it is, your own politics, religious beliefs tc are thrown out the window the minute you become "Active", your sole mission is to survive and make sure your brothers and sisters survive as well while completeing your objective.

I hope you all come home safe and sound, and what ever anybody else thinks about this conflict, I understand as many of us do, Your just doing your Job..

Charlie Company 2nd 58th

Originally posted by LogansRun

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Are you over 30?

LOL.

For the record, I am 26. What is the point of your question?

The point is to establish your lifespan in the world in which your name exists. You have four years to rebel or meet your fate, it seems.

The PROCESSES and PROCEDURES involved in "doing their job" are not AS IMPORTANT AS the results, effects and outcomes they are creating.

They are destroying another nation--for essentially nothing. Iraq never did anything to the US to warrant this plunder, pillage, pollution and death.

Job, my eye. As human beings, they have the necessity to look at what their JOBS are creating before their very eyes; and they have a responsibility to speak up against omnicide and plunder.