God is all-good, and there's no room for hell, in heaven.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


The problem with universal salvation is that it is a dangerous doctrine to teach. Yes, it may be the case, and there are those, like Rob Bell or Father Hans Urs von Balthasar, who believe that there is evidence in scripture for it, but there is also evidence in scripture that it is NOT the case. With eternity in the balance, I think it prudent to err on the side of intentional salvation, rather than on the hope that, in the end, everyone gets in. If that happens, great; if it doesn't, preaching it may be leading people to a condemnation that they otherwise might have avoided.

By the way, the works of C.S. Lewis are not in the public domain, so anyone who provides "free copies", while they think themselves doing a service, are doing so illegally.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I disagree that the universe is mortal. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, even matter is a form of energy at a certain vibration, so while the material world you see may not stay in its current form it will exist forever in one form or another, meaning it too is immortal.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, the universe is just a whole bunch of energy in different forms which means the universe cannot be created or destroyed and it is eternal as well.

reply to post by adjensen


You may note that I preached no such doctrine.

Our supreme hope and desire in our love for God and neighbor as self, however, is that none will be lost.

Exclusivity and being part of an inner circle which in some way takes pleasure or comfort in the idea that the other is outside of it (or many others), and will never get in, isn't Christian love if I might be so bold as to point that out. That's not the way it works. Heaven's joy and pleasure is it's own reward. And like I said before, were we ourselves not at one time on the outside?

It's like the desire to share C.S. Lewis' writings - the more the merrier!

You can't frown upon the heartfelt hope and desire, and rationale, for heaven to grow, and hell, to diminish, can you?

And surely we as Christians cannot use the cross as the point of a sword at the throat to win converts under threat of hell based on a misunderstood exclusive doctrine of salvation?!

No, we must learn that the nature of the invitation is truly universal and all-inclusive according to the love of God in Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean that everyone will have the good sense to accept it because as Lewis has pointed out, freedom reigns, so we won't hear the weeping and wailing, unless we press our ear to that door (the wrong one) in the hope of hearing it in which case we might just fall right through it and end up joining them.

Anyway, please save the assumptions and judgments on what you think I know and am saying. It's hurtful, especially coming from a Christian brother or sister as the case may be. Thanks.

Edit to add: Isn't the very meaning of the word "Catholic" - Universal?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

You may note that I preached no such doctrine.

Well, my apologies for misconstruing what you are saying, then. It comes across as being in the vein of universal salvation, but if that's not what you mean, then I guess I don't understand your premise.

Though Lewis is one of my favourite authors and The Great Divorce is my favourite work of his, it is a theologically shaky work, because he is maintaining that the decision to accept or reject salvation is one that everyone gets to make after death, after they know that God is real. Some people think that it is about Purgatory (and there is a bit of that, in the man who has the lizard removed from his shoulder,) but it doesn't mesh with the Catholic notion of Purgatory and, so far as I know, it doesn't really mesh with any Christian view of the afterlife, either.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You may be right, that even if the law of entropy results in a heat death for all matter, that somewhere, everything that's ever happened and will ever happen is stored up whereby the wheat is separated from the chaff or what is of value is held in reserve and what is of no value, bound up and thrown away. For more on that, look up The Akashic Record/Field aka The Zero Point Field.

Perhaps too, the resurrection into the new creation, when everything is made new, is woven right into the very fabric of the universe, as an inevitability.

Many believe that the laws of physics support both ideas ie: Frank Tipler, Bernard Haisch, Ervin László, Amit Goswami, and others.


I too used to have a real difficulty with this idea of a heavenly domain outside of our present experience, until I read C.S. Lewis and realized in a sudden epiphany how such a thing, if there is to be a real and authentic truth, and justice, is an absolute necessity.

But it sure is nice to know that nothing of value was lost and that all the treasure of heaven has been protected and preserved, whereby the very essence and nature of that treasure is the love of God in Jesus Christ made manifest or made real.

Thus, given the root of our human desire and the way that it's object continually suggests itself in our experience but does not make it's full appearance, it is safe to conclude that the day will come when our innermost heart's desire will meet that object or in other words that heaven, even though we cannot fully perceive it's reality, according to our subjective, sensory perceptions, is real, perhaps even more real than this world/reality.

But there is no need to try to eliminate heaven, for fear of hell.

reply to post by adjensen


It's smarter and more intelligent and more insightful than the Catholic notion of Purgatory and any Christian view of the afterlife; the kind of thing, once understood and comprehended clearly and distinctly, that is capable of causing heaven to grow and hell to begin shrinking rather dramatically.

Don't forget too that the Church including the RCC, used to be in the hell business and saving people from it, not by teaching and inviting entry into heaven based on reason but by absolution and the avoidance of hell within the context of church hierarchy ie: not by a free will choice on the part of the individual, but by something that's done for you on your behalf, and in some cases, even in exchange for money, of all things.

The love of God makes perfect rational sense, which doesn't mean that there isn't a place for "faith", but we can come to actually understand and comprehend something of the magnitude of God's love in/through Jesus, and we are ready now to receive that teaching. People are smarter and more capable than the church has given them/us credit. We must place our hope and trust in God, who we cannot fully fathom of course, but it sure would be nice if the church started trusting the people with the logos (logic) of Christ.

10 "hail Mary's" and an "our father" with a sign of the cross just doesn't cut it. People must be given to understand the rational basis for their faith/belief.

Sometimes I get the impression that the knowledge is present and resident in the church, but that they prefer not to share it, to keep hell alive and themselves in the business of saving people from that terrible place ie: "the hell business", and it's big business and has been for a longgg time. Wouldn't that be sad, absurd, and ironic?!

We must not concern ourselves with trying to win brownie points in the sight of men even "holy" men, but instead with pleasing God and leading more people to God whether within or without the doors of the Catholic church because God loves individual people over institutions, and simply cannot be contained exclusively within the confines of a sealed stained-glass bottle but who (as Spirit) like the wind is radically free and thus may blow wherever he pleases and visit with whomever He wishes.

Best Regards,

NAM
Your brother, in Christ (not a false prophet). And no I don't have ALL the answers and don't know everything there is to know, yet.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I'm not trying to eliminate heaven at all brother. I believe we reach the "new creation" when we are reincarnated onto another planet. Even Earth was a "new creation" when we were born onto it. The only thing is, the inhabitants of this creation do not respect it and destroy it all while they kill and lie to one another.

This Is the proverbial hell and it is because of man's ego (Satan) that it is this way. We are already in the promised land, but we are destroying it.

Check out this guy's experience of going to hell and heaven and back to earth again.

Ian McCormack was night diving off the island of Mauritius when he was stung multiple times by Box Jellyfish, which are among the most venomous creatures in the world. His testimony relates how he clung to life while getting to hospital, was declared clinically dead soon afterwards, and how during this time he had an encounter with Jesus, which radically changed the direction of his life. Link

And note that "the new creation" is something that while Jesus as God held in reserve, that He nevertheless invited Ian to return from, for the sake of his love for his mother. I think that's telling.

The implication of this may be that while heaven awaits, God is also interested in perfecting this world according to his, and our, love, both for God and for one another, including our family of origin and extending from there perhaps eventually even to the point of a global salvation and thus, to a "new heaven and earth", even from this earth-plane, which God doesn't consider disposable or a throw-away world.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I used to think as you did about other planets, but then after extensive research including the curious nature of our own earth-moon-sun configuration (with the reflecting sign), among other things, including the sent-calling of Jesus, I've come to the conclusion that this earth-plane may be the jumping off point to immortality (eternal life), as per the promise, which might not in and of itself preclude, necessarily, the possibility of a freely chosen reincarnation, whether here or elsewhere.

But it's only by the work of Christ that such things may be possible.

Of course all of this puts great pressure, from the POV of heaven and the "weight of glory", on those in positions of "power", to reverse and undo all manner of corruption and exploitation within the "world system" as it is.

“No, there is no escape. There is no heaven with a little of hell in it - no place to retain this or that of the devil in our hearts or our pockets. Out Satan must go, every hair and feather.”

― George MacDonald

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I agree that reincarnation is only possible through Christ, except I don't see Christ as someone who lived 2,000 years ago, I see Christ as something we all have called consciousness, or the "Son" of God.

The Son is the perceiver aspect of God, the Spirit is the Father and physicality is the Mother. Father, Mother, and Son, when the spiritual (Father) meets the physical (Mother), or they are "married", they create consciousness (Son).

I see the Earth, moon, sun alignment as pure coincidence. With the number of planets within the universe (infinite), the alignment is bound to happen at some point. It just so happens we are on this particular planet with said alignment. We are all immortal by default, the fact that energy cannot be created or destroyed attests to that fact in my opinion. Our bodies are energy and so is our Spirit, meaning we can neither be created nor destroyed, meaning we are immortal.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Bear in mind that without said alignment, we would not be here, and that it's only in the midst of the epoch during which the moon eclipses the sun and the shadow of the earth, the moon, that there just so happens to be sentient observers/measurers for whom it could be meaningful or significant, to notice it.

And all indication is that Jesus the Christ, made use of a lunar eclipse to perform his Great Work, so for him it was significant.

And as an allegory, could it not be said the moon reflects the sun as the Son does the Father, and is not Christ a light in the darkness? Just something to consider.

Curious. Why don't you recognize anything of value or significance in the cross and death and resurrection ritual of Jesus of 2000 years ago, which for all practical purposes, given the timeless, spaceless nature of universal principals like Justice and Mercy, might as well have been yesterday?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I don't see any significance because I believe the stories surrounding Jesus' life could have easily been fabricated. The alignments of the stars, moon, Earth, sun, etc. are related to paganism. Rome was a pagan empire and they were famous for religious diffusion, that is taking others ideas and manipulating them to fit their needs. They are also the ones who persecuted Christians for hundreds of years then went on to legalize Christianity.

They diffused Greek mythology into their religion and culture, so I see no reason why they wouldn't do the same with Jesus and his teachings. Rome would conquer nearby cities and towns and morph those cities and towns cultures into their own, that's why they were so successful for so long.

Maybe the reason we are here IS because of that alignment, not the other way around? What if the alignment Earth has is a universal constant for life? With the size of the universe and the number of planets within it I don't think this alignment is all that uncommon personally.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Let's forget about the earth, the moon, the sun, the planets and the starry skies then, and talk about what heaven means and signifies, beyond that of merely a sci-fi fanstasy to be born into a sinless world, somewhere else, even anywhere other than here, God forbid! because we cannot stand what has become of the human being.

Let us consider heaven for an actual reason other than an escape from earth, or from hell for that matter, because if heaven is what is true and real and entirely reasonable, even joyful and triumphant, then where is the fear of either hell or escape from earth to be found..?
Where is the fear of death? The fear of insignificance, of annihilation - if we are already included because it pleased God to share for the sake of "we"? Where is it and what is it (our fear) then but an absurdity?

Can we laugh at hell and at the devil? You're damn right we can.

That's the devil's problem with mankind and with Jesus Christ, you see, that ours, even being last or most recent (examines monkey body), is the greater glory and the promise, at his expense really too, because it was what "he" forsook to try to snatch all glory for himself (a very foolish move, when everything is already shared now and forever), if we are to accept that the myth or folklore of "the evil one" whom Jesus himself, in his great prayer in John, did indicate that he was protecting us from, those "given to him" as the Good Shepherd by God via our recognition, faith and love, willingness and sympathetic mutuality and understanding in/with him wherever he is or may have gone, and still exists! The Spirit never changes, you see, but if it's been "processed" for our mutual enjoyment in the form of a human being who is also God, well then that's a "meal" (potential grokking) you can really sink your teeth into, and drink, and be merry / totally enjoy (be fully satisfied with) in whatever form it might take, whether in this life, from life to life in an almost infinite cosmos, or in heaven above (the "waters" above the firmament).

What we are in need of therefore, is more courage, and more passion, and even more desire, more hope, more trust and the willingness to love more and to be loved by God more, loved and fully accepted even in spite of ourselves - then it doesn't matter anymore, and we can say to God "thy will be done" trusting in him for what is best (as Jesus taught us) and that he knows how to unfold the eternal life as it relates to we ourselves as we are; whether to reincarnate here there or anywhere; to resurrect; whereby our every hearts desire has it's authentic expression and in so doing glorify both God, our selves and everyone else; to become an ensconced Saint (not sure how fun that would be..), or an immortal angel of God, without the possibility of another fall, because it's just not in the shape of our innermost heart's desire to belong and to be known and to know, and inter-relate with others in a heavenly society (can you imagine?!).

For God all things are possible.

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'"

~ C.S. Lewis, "The Great Divorce"

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart (imagination) of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:9

Lazarus Short
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

OK, thanks, I'll start the story, and post again when done.

Looking forward to hearing back on what you thought of it...

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Luke 17
21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

We are in the midst of the kingdom right now, only we have neglected it and been blinded to it.

Matthew 6
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

The single eye that Jesus speaks of is right in front of you, it is what you see, the image of God. It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see, which is the light and image of God. What you see is the kingdom of God, the universe around you, your image.

We are made in God's image, and that image is ours. Focus not on what you look at but the light that you see and your body will be full of light.

Psalm 104
1 Praise the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, you are very great; you are clothed with splendor and majesty. 2 He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent 3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind.

You are the Lord, your light and your image is what this passage is speaking of. When you look across a countryside, that is the Lord God stretching out the heavens like a tent. The light you see is the garment that God wraps himself in. His upper chambers are within your mind, where everything you see is created.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


If there is a Heaven there must be a Hell. To deny the existence of Hell is to call Jesus a liar.

P.S: C.S Lewis believed in Hell.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


You are sadly mistaken because I never said any such thing.

It seems to me that you are more into hell than you are, heaven.