Is even half of this true? Cause if it is how can the USA even call itself a "democracy" or a rep

Act1Scene1

Carreau
reply to post by crazyewok

 

I read your link and that OPINION piece was so simplistic and full of half truths I don't even know where to begin. I don't start threads complaining about British politics for a couple of reasons.

1. I don't care

2. It's none of my business and

3. I clean up my own yard before looking over my neighbor's fence.

Why don't you try giving any/all three of those a whirl?

edit on 15-11-2013 by Carreau because: (no reason given)

So, your whole argument is: "You can't talk about our politics because you are a foreigner.".

Hahaha. Good luck with that one.

Aprrently free speach only exists in the USA

reply to post by crazyewok


If your country is under the thumb of another all the more reason for you to get off your ass and fix yours first.

Carreau
reply to post by crazyewok

 

If your country is under the thumb of another all the more reason for you to get off your ass and fix yours first.

The whole world is under the thumb of the US.

If constantly reminding US Citizens that they are loathed the world over, every single second of every single day, it might convince them to leave us alone. That would sort the world out.

However, I am inclined to go with another view given here, we have free speech, to talk about your country, and if you don't like it, you can swivel on it.

Carreau
reply to post by crazyewok

 

If your country is under the thumb of another all the more reason for you to get off your ass and fix yours first.

who says Im not?

But I still have free speach!

And Im still intrested in other countrys. I mean I dont want to fix the UK to mess have it turn out a turd of a US system

***ATTENTION***

The staff have this thread under close review. Please be mindful of the Terms & Conditions. Discuss the topic, not each other. Further violations may result in post removals or posting bans.

~Tenth
ATS Super Moderator

reply to post by Act1Scene1


Rant all you want about the US and it's citizens and your opinion amounts to nothing. There's nothing you can do about the US, nothing.

Instead of fixing your own country you look for a scapegoat, fine with me.

Carreau
reply to post by Act1Scene1

 

Rant all you want about the US and it's citizens and your opinion amounts to nothing. There's nothing you can do about the US, nothing.

Instead of fixing your own country you look for a scapegoat, fine with me.

We are fixing our country. Our politicians have never felt the wrath of the public as badly as they feel it today. Can you say that about your country? Nope.


As for nothing I can do? I can't stop your country alone, but I can make my people far more aware of the wrongs and slights you have committed against us, to the point where no US citizen ever wants to come here because they are unwelcome.

reply to post by crazyewok

#1 Filibusters--yup, true.

#2 is definitely true and over the last several years, there have been quite a few cases where judges should have recused themselves due to conflict of interest but have not. The Supreme Court can find any law unconstitutional if it should make it up to them (though they can also sometimes use original jurisdiction). That was established in the Constitution as they are intended to be a check against both the executive and legislative branches. Problem is, the Founders at the time believed that the Supreme Court would be so remote from persuasion and more that they would not succumb to outside influence.

#3--State secrets--true. Additionally, there are limited powers as to who can sue the US government as well. It has been ruled in the Supreme Court that military who, even if they were experimented on without consent, cannot sue the Federal government. On my more jaded days, I tend to think that there are no two other words that have done more to damage this country than "national security".

#4 Two parties--absolutely true. As an example, during the 2012 election, there was something like 14-17 presidential candidates that were not democrats or republicans. If I recall correctly, the candidate who was "allowed" to be on the ballot of most states was Gary Johnson and he was on a phenomenal 47 states' ballots--a victory in itself. Dr. Jill Stein was on the ballot for 38 states. So at the presidential level, a non-democrat/republican is going to take a hit in electoral votes by default. So much for democracy, eh? en.wikipedia.org...

Another two party grotesqueness is that the invitation to participate in debates is privately held by the host. That's why you only see the two parties. Can't rock the status quo. Stein was arrested outside of the 2012 presidential debate after attempting to gain access to it as a presidential candidate.

#5--Gerrymandering is very real and very true. Part of what plays in this is that the US is basically a 50% +1 country where all they need to do is take prior votes into consideration and redraw the districts so that the majority within them is favorable. My poli sci prof spent a whole lot of time talking about gerrymandering. Both parties do it but the most recent one to do it was the GOP. As would be expected, there's fights about whether or not gerrymandering has an effect on democracy or not. My prof said absolutely yes but another prof might dismiss it. en.wikipedia.org...

Act1Scene1
[y. Can you say that about your country? Nope.

Exactly. The USA population seem to be like sheep at the mercy of thier huge faceless bureaucratic goverment with little hope of voteing change.

The whole developed could reform but if the USA doesnt its useless.

Maybe it time to get those guns out?

crazyewok

Act1Scene1
[y. Can you say that about your country? Nope.

Exactly. The USA population seem to be like sheep at the mercy of thier huge faceless bureaucratic goverment with little hope of voteing change.

The whole developed could reform but if the USA doesnt its useless.

Maybe it time to get those guns out?

edit on 15-11-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

I can only hope that we never have to hear of this country ever again following the collapse of the global economy.

To all those lauding America as a Republic, perhaps it might be an education to read Plato on the subject. There's a book called 'Republic' authored by him which details what Socrates thought a republic should look like and, since I'm currently re-reading that book at the moment, I thought it a good point to bring up seeing how this thread is developing.

Fair warning, though, that Plato wrote this book around 380BC and that ancient Greek's initial Republic might have changed in people's minds just a little during the intervening two and a half millennia.

reply to post by crazyewok


see? this is why i'm an independant

rockoperawriter
reply to post by crazyewok

 

see? this is why i'm an independant

But if what I read if even half right then your vote is wasted and even if enough independants got together the two mains can shut you down.

reply to post by crazyewok


You keep using terms to indicate you see this as a problem you're entirely removed from and it's our suffering you almost pity?

The United Kingdom is absolutely not superior to us on any level, in any way, whatsoever. In some ways, for the many hundreds of years of experience doing the same dirty tricks we're fairly new at here, they're worse.

In terms of our own nation, America has serious problems right now. No one in their right mind could deny that. Show me another system...ANY other system..which does or has ever been shown to work BETTER across a large and diverse population? The Socialism of the Scandinavian nations don't really count here, as they've said themselves at times. They are neither diverse for like minds, as the U.S. is, nor are they large by ANY stretch..and therein lay the doom for the only other system I know of which has worked half way decent over the long term.

The strength in our system isn't that it cannot get screwed up. EVERY system man has devised back to Hammurabi's Code has wound up screwed up to one degree or another. The strength in "Democracy" as so many insist to call it, is that within that screwed up system are the tools, pre-programmed, to FIX it.

Most systems require guns and bloodshed without exception or ANY options, to correct bad outcomes. Ours MAY come to that, but only by the pure apathy of people. A concerned populace COULD FIX what we have ...and that is what sets our system apart. Not ABOVE....anyone else, but apart. Indeed.

Wrabbit2000
The United Kingdom is absolutely not superior to us on any level, in any way, whatsoever.

Except for the fact that the United Kingdom's economy is growing whilst yours is sinking rapidly.

Except for the fact that people in the United Kingdom have the right to vote for their governments, whereas your vote is decided for you by the Electoral College.

Except for the fact that people in the United Kingdom get to choose between more than 2 parties.

Except for the fact that the United Kingdom values culture, and has attained global recognition for it's culture whilst you have to shed out vast sums of money to carpet bomb the world with your Hollywood Dross and #e like Lady Gaga.

Except for the fact that anyone can get seen by a doctor, unlike in the US where people die from things people in civilised nations can get treatment for without mortgaging the house.

Except for the fact that people in the United Kingdom can send their kids to school and not have to worry about them being shot.

Except for the fact that half your population are on antidepressants, whilst governments like the United Kingdoms (and other European governments) and conducting further research into their negative effects.

Except for the fact that the United Kingdom doesn't impose draconian 3 strikes laws, resulting in people committing misdemeanors ending up in jail for the rest of their lives

Except for the fact that the population of the United Kingdom don't hang on to myths and superstitions, and then use these superstitions to abuse and discriminate against it's own citizens such as gay people.


You are a third world country in all but name and attitude.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


If Americans wish to see how truly screwed up variations on the British Parliamentary System can get, all they need do is look to the north (Canada) and see how easily the current populist government (read: elected through democracy) is able to threaten the very existence (of) that establishment, demolishing it bit by bit. 'Contempt of Parliament' is a very apt term, imho.

Wrabbit2000

You keep using terms to indicate you see this as a problem you're entirely removed from and it's our suffering you almost pity?

Unfortunatly no. I know im not removed from your problems sadly as much as I want to be. I know a messed up USA mean bad for us all

Wrabbit2000
The United Kingdom is absolutely not superior to us on any level, in any way, whatsoever. In some ways, for the many hundreds of years of experience doing the same dirty tricks we're fairly new at here, they're worse.

Let not go down that route....I thought you were above that dude. Above the "were Number1 ! Were number one!" crowed The UK has many things its Excells at over the USA......politics is not unfortunatly one and we are a screwed up system too. But one at least that allows thrid partys.

Wrabbit2000
In terms of our own nation, America has serious problems right now. No one in their right mind could deny that. Show me another system...ANY other system..which does or has ever been shown to work BETTER across a large and diverse population? The Socialism of the Scandinavian nations don't really count here, as they've said themselves at times. They are neither diverse for like minds, as the U.S. is, nor are they large by ANY stretch..and therein lay the doom for the only other system I know of which has worked half way decent over the long term.

But maybe a key sill lies there somewhere? Maybe give states much more power of autmonamy? With the fedral govemnet only be there for defence and enforcemnet of the constitiution as your weakness it seema is a vast faceless detached bureaucratic govemnet.

reply to post by Act1Scene1


Well, I will say that your post illustrates an outstanding example of why bashing other people's nations that the speaker doesn't live in and/or has never lived in, is a real bad idea. (I'm assuming by your focus on England, you've got more than a passing relation to it. )

I made my comment about the United Kingdom by the scope of history as I know it to be across centuries of time, not within any one lifetime or recent time as a standout from the rest. I'll leave it there too, as specifics are something I don't live with to know in context of day to day nuances.

Likewise, America is so highly nuanced on almost every aspect of life, it's much like what I hear non-native speakers talk about for learning the language at all. Unlike most languages of the world, the very same word with the very same pronunciation can have totally different meanings for use. The difference? Nuanced tone and context it's used in. Miss either one, and you've missed the usage/meaning all together.

Much like examining pieces of the U.S. Culture in isolation, as chunks to condemn. There is a greater whole they come from that surpasses the importance of even the worst turd in the swimming pool.

reply to post by crazyewok

Let not go down that route....I thought you were above that dude. Above the "were Number1 ! Were number one!" crowed The UK has many things its Excels at over the USA......politics is not unfortunatly one and we are a screwed up system too. But one at least that allows thrid partys.

You're right in that the 'we're #1' is unfounded and foolish. That's not where I'd go at all. In some ways, the US is better. In some other ways, I really envy British life and culture. Ditto France, Germany and even Russia in some aspects of how they function. It's been a slow realization to come to for me, but the U.S. isn't better, overall, than any one other nation. Not when overall is the term brought into it.

Heck, anthropology is something they ought to teach in high school. It's an epiphany to learn that other "primitive" cultures, perhaps at about the same level as your Avatar's fictional existence for how the West sees it, are wealthier and happier than most of us will ever know. It's not that they don't know or even fully understand what they're "missing", either. They definitely DO know all that at times, and are even happier to have none of it, for what it's worth in their world view.

So... It's all relative, isn't it?