When was the Fall of Satan?

satan means adversary...lucifer is in the scriptures all of one time and is not a proper name and either is satan.

Rex282
satan means adversary...lucifer is in the scriptures all of one time and is not a proper name and either is satan.

Exactly -- "Lucifer" refers the the King of Babylon, not the devil. Confusing Lucifer with the devil is a fairly recent phenomenon.

I'm personally not big on the whole "Satan is a real entity", but if he is, then his fall took place outside of space and time, so there really is no "when did it happen" to be answered.

reply to post by Belcastro


Satan's fall occurred b4 creation of mankind.
God was planning on creation of mankind and told
the Angels that, they should serve mankind.
Satan being the most powerful and proud refused
and so God cast him out together with all the other like minded angels

Belcastro
When did satan fall? was it before or after the creation of mankind?
What does the Apochryphic texts say about Satan?
(ive never read any apochryphic texts.)

In the book of revelation satan known as the devil and serpent is cast down to earth.
But is this a vision of the future that st. john had recorded and it hasnt happened yet,
or was the war in heaven in ancient past?

The bible clearly talks about 3 ages. The world that was, the world that is, and the world that is to come meaning ages or aeon in the Greek. There was an entire civilization before the creation of man in which God completely and utterly destroyed every man and creature creating darkness and a void. Then God created this age, and we read of this in Genesis chapter 1. The verse Genesis 1:1-2 is packed with information.

There is an excellent study on this, but here is part:

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Note carefully what that verse said, yet didn’t say. In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth, period. The word "beginning", is the Hebrew "reshiyth", which means, first in place, time, order or rank.

The creation here was the First Earth age. What happened to it? That is fully and accurately described by the next verse. Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Now, to read this at face value, it says that the earth was without form. Which must mean it was created without form. However, when you look at the Hebrew, you see something totally different. "Was" is "hayah", which means, became, come to pass.

The word "Hayah" is always emphatic. That is to say, put the emphasis on the word "became". This same word was also used in Genesis 2:7. Check it out and see how it is worded there. "Without form" is "tohuw", which means, to lie waste, a desolation. "Void" is "bohuw", which means, a vacuity, an indistinguishable ruin. It will do you good to remember those words. We will see them again.

Nevertheless, what is being said here is that the Earth was created. Then, it became a desolation and an undistinguishable ruin. It was destroyed. Then through the rest of chapter one in Genesis, the second Earth age was created.

You see, Genesis 1:1 is timeless. There are no restrictions in the Bible for how old that age was. How about we take a look at this in a different place in the word?

Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited; "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

The word "vain” here is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:2. It is "tohuw", a desolation. God did not create the world as a desolation. It became one. God created this world to be inhabited, and it was inhabited. In spite of this, it is taught that the world was created void. That is a false teaching devised by the imaginations of man.

The Word clearly states that the Earth was created, destroyed, and refashioned in the form you are living in today. This is not that hard to understand. However, you do have to study the original languages to understand it. Let’s examine this in yet another place.

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water." People are willingly ignorant of this, because they don’t study the Word. "Willingly" is "thelo", which means, to choose or prefer. They choose to believe what they are taught, and prefer to be ignorant of the truth. These are not my words. They are God’s.

The Heavens are of old or better said, ancient. The Earth standing in and out of the water would be continents and oceans. Again, the Earth was created to be inhabited. We will get to who inhabited it later.

Many people want to say the world that was refers to the pre-Noah time, but Jeremiah clearly says otherwise:

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Not one man or animal survived and yet we know in Noah's flood at least 8 survived (I believe it can be shown as many more for reasons I won't go into here) and many animals. That is the same wording as Genesis chapter 1 before the creation. It is not after creation of Adam and Eve.

Thus to answer your question, Satan fell before this age and caused the end of an age, and some by their actions at that time were chosen before the foundations of this age to fulfill a plan God has for their life here in the flesh.

You can read much more in detail on that study I linked to, and I wish you well on your search.

adjensen

Rex282
satan means adversary...lucifer is in the scriptures all of one time and is not a proper name and either is satan.

Exactly -- "Lucifer" refers the the King of Babylon, not the devil. Confusing Lucifer with the devil is a fairly recent phenomenon.

I'm personally not big on the whole "Satan is a real entity", but if he is, then his fall took place outside of space and time, so there really is no "when did it happen" to be answered.

I agree.The lucifer is satan myth has been propagated with zero evidence from the scriptures.The same with satan being an archangel that fell.There is zero support for that in the scripture .The only theology that fits that is the twisting of the scriptures to make "if a fact doesn't fit a theory...change the facts.

Belcastro
When did satan fall? was it before or after the creation of mankind?
What does the Apochryphic texts say about Satan?
(ive never read any apochryphic texts.)

In the book of revelation satan known as the devil and serpent is cast down to earth.
But is this a vision of the future that st. john had recorded and it hasnt happened yet,
or was the war in heaven in ancient past?

In AD 33

"Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out" (John 12:31)

The same year Christ became the ruler

"Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matt 28:18)

Not even the Christians really understood this before AD 67 - 70, when the first big change occurred (fall of Jerusalem) followed by the fall of Rome AD 190 - 476

BTW: Christ rules from the cross, it's the the power of the cross, that's gradually transforming the wicked world.

The fall of satan never happened. Satan is a metaphor for the evil that exists in human's hearts. Plenty of that still exists.

TKDRL
The fall of satan never happened. Satan is a metaphor for the evil that exists in human's hearts. Plenty of that still exists.

The fall happened and is still happening, satan is the wicked human Ego falling, when ever Christ comes in to the heart.

BTW: evil and hell will always exist outside the kingdom of heaven (paradise)

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood." (Rev 22:15)

TextWhen did satan fall? was it before or after the creation of mankind?
What does the Apochryphic texts say about Satan?
(ive never read any apochryphic texts.)

In the book of revelation satan known as the devil and serpent is cast down to earth.
But is this a vision of the future that st. john had recorded and it hasnt happened yet,
or was the war in heaven in ancient past?

reply to post by Belcastro


Did you know that evil is a creation? (Isaiah 45:7) - Lucifer did not invent evil. Where did evil start? Evil started in the celestial realm. There are at least two creations that we have had revealed to us and that is the creation of the celestial realm and our terrestrial realm. According to Moses and his writings and traditions, we are taught that when this universe was created that God saw that all that He created was very good. (Genesis 1:31) - Ezekiel tells us that Satan (Lucifer) was a perfect creation of God till sin was brought forth from him. Ezekiel (28:15) - The ancient scholars tell us that it is true that the universe was perfect at the time that God created the universe and that sin had not corrupted the world at this time.

Most Christians are taught that sin was introduced through the tree of knowledge to Adam and Eve but to understand the truth we should realize that sin was in the serpent before Eve sinned. So to be fair we should understand that knowledge was introduced through the tree in Gan Eden and not the spirit of evil (sin). Eve sinned before she had the knowledge of the spirit of sin. The tree of knowledge made her aware of that sin after the fact and not before the fact. As Satan was cast down from the celestial (Luke 10:18) we find that this same spirit was also in Satan but we must all learn that this spirit only enters a creation by the choice of that creation. We assume many things through teachers but we must learn to think and read carefully. Lucifer embraced the spirit of disobedience before Eve embraced this same spirit.

God created the spirit of disobedience and with His foreknowledge He presented it to His creation. Now that sounds like I am accusing God but let me finish this before you realize that clergy has not really told you the whole story. God never has to apologize for mistakes because He never makes mistakes. His intention for this creation was that He built a school house and then created us as the pupils. That makes God the principle, Jesus the teacher and people the pupils. Real simple to understand and nothing complicated. Even some children have no problem understanding this.

As Ezekiel tells us that God created Lucifer (Satan) he is also saying that God did not create sin in Lucifer. Lucifer embraced sin and sin then dwelt in Lucifer. Sin had already existed in the celestial creation as Lucifer was perfect. Why then would God create sin? Simply because when God created the celestial creation He had to also create all opposites that would exist in order to show knowledge. One cannot show wisdom without showing knowledge because wisdom comes from knowledge. To show love you must show hate and to show hot you must show cold. That is knowledge. Just as wisdom comes from knowledge so good and evil also comes from knowledge. To understand wisdom you must therefore understand that all things are given an opposite to show truth..

We cannot sin today and not be aware of sin because that spirit of disobedience has now been revealed. That is not to say that Eve was not aware of disobedience because she even admitted to the serpent that God said not to eat of that tree. Eve chose to believe the serpent over her Father without the knowledge of whether it was good or evil. That does not mean that because Eve was not aware of the ramifications of her choice that it was not sin. It was still sin. Do you see the difference in word play? She had no idea of the results that lay ahead of her actions but she still chose her own mindset. But also remember that this tree was the tree of the knowledge or being aware of what good and evil was. It was not a tree of evil because that spirit is not just a tree.

So God could not create our terrestrial realm without showing these same opposites. In order to show righteousness (good), God must also show unrighteousness (evil). This is what He meant when He said that He creates evil. Not that God created evil in malice but He showed us evil in His wisdom for our understanding. Now imagine what the result would be if you never had knowledge of unrighteousness (evil). You would also have no knowledge of what righteousness (good) is. You would simply be a robot with no purpose whatsoever. Lucifer was perfect in wisdom and it was when Lucifer embraced evil as free choice that he became part of the spirit evil. Exactly the same as when you or I embrace evil we have that same free will to do so and the results are identical.

Now the animals were also involved in all of this. Who taught the serpent evil? Did the serpent choose evil such as Lucifer did? The answer is that YES the serpent sinned also by free will. As you start to understand more of this thing called sin then you will realize that it has to exist in order to show righteousness. The serpent was not Lucifer nor was Lucifer mentioned in the punishments of the Gan Eden. The perpetrators were the Serpent, Eve, and Adam and not Lucifer. All three of the guilty party chose to disobey the command of God and all three did this by choice. All three embraced this same spirit of Evil that God created.

Now what does that have to do with your question as to "did Satan fall (embrace evil) before or after creation?" Well we know that evil was created in the celestial realm and that Satan with one third of the heavenly host did embrace evil and were thrown out of the celestial realm (Jude 1:6). This act has already happened because Jesus said that He saw Satan cast down to this earth.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If everything was very good then Satan could not have been on the earth at the end of this creation. Good is opposite of evil and God would not say that the creation was good if evil existed in the creation. That and the fact that Jesus saw Satan fall as lightning would suggest to me that the fall was after creation of this universe.

Good question op, I am by no means a biblical scholar but have done a good bit of reading on the topic and although there seems to be no clear cut date I am inclined to believe it was after the pre-adamic era and slightly after the time of the first 'man'. I believe it was the 'man' created in God(s) image that Satan had objection to taking a back seat for and thus spurred what we understand as the fall.

The word "lucifer" is in the scripture just one time yet a whole genealogy and history(mythology) has grown up from it.The fact that the lucifer myth is a lie should be ample proof that those that believe in it are self deceived or have a hidden agenda.

Isaiah 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

The word "lucifer"is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word heylel from the root, hâlâl…which means shining one,or morning star or bright star., “to shine” or “to bear light.It modifies a noun because in Hebrew it is not a proper noun yet Jeromes Latin Vulgate translation made it into one.

In Greek the Latin Lucifer is translated into" phosphoros" which is also used as Yahoshuas title in 1 Peter 1:19 as "day star" and in Rev 22:16 as bright morning star".

These translations are in complete contradiction to each other if they are the same "being'". However Isaiah 14 says it is the king of Babylon.The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to “take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!’

The doctrines of men are extrapolations of the scriptures to make something that is not there.. fit "their" theory of theology.The fact is scriptures says nothing of satan being lucifer or of being a "perfect" archangel who fell from heaven because of pride and jealousy of mankind and 1/3 of the angels of heaven fell with him in rebellion and became demons or any such foolishness of the carnal religious minds.That is a false genealogy of something that is not written and is an invention of the religious carnal mind of man of a horrific fantasy built upon fear and perversion.

Yahoshua said many will come in my name saying they are christ and deceive many...aAnd that is exactly what they have done.They propagate lies like lucifer is satan and is the ruler of this world and God is going to punish the majority of mankind (but not them) in the eternal punishment of hell and call it the "good news".

I don't judge those that do this out of their great ignorance.They don't know any better.They neither know God or the power of Gods living word(which is not the bible).Out of the abundance of their "heart" their mouth speaks.It is their nature to be at enmity with God and to believe a lie that they have done great works and miracles in his name yet Yahoshua will say to them I never knew you.

reply to post by Rex282


OMG I'm in love!

KPB

Rex282

The word "lucifer" is in the scripture just one time yet a whole genealogy and history(mythology) has grown up from it.The fact that the lucifer myth is a lie should be ample proof that those that believe in it are self deceived or have a hidden agenda.

Isaiah 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

The word "lucifer"is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word heylel from the root, hâlâl…which means shining one,or morning star or bright star., “to shine” or “to bear light.It modifies a noun because in Hebrew it is not a proper noun yet Jeromes Latin Vulgate translation made it into one.

In Greek the Latin Lucifer is translated into" phosphoros" which is also used as Yahoshuas title in 1 Peter 1:19 as "day star" and in Rev 22:16 as bright morning star".

These translations are in complete contradiction to each other if they are the same "being'". However Isaiah 14 says it is the king of Babylon.The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to “take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!’

The doctrines of men are extrapolations of the scriptures to make something that is not there.. fit "their" theory of theology.The fact is scriptures says nothing of satan being lucifer or of being a "perfect" archangel who fell from heaven because of pride and jealousy of mankind and 1/3 of the angels of heaven fell with him in rebellion and became demons or any such foolishness of the carnal religious minds.That is a false genealogy of something that is not written and is an invention of the religious carnal mind of man of a horrific fantasy built upon fear and perversion.

Yahoshua said many will come in my name saying they are christ and deceive many...aAnd that is exactly what they have done.They propagate lies like lucifer is satan and is the ruler of this world and God is going to punish the majority of mankind (but not them) in the eternal punishment of hell and call it the "good news".

I don't judge those that do this out of their great ignorance.They don't know any better.They neither know God or the power of Gods living word(which is not the bible).Out of the abundance of their "heart" their mouth speaks.It is their nature to be at enmity with God and to believe a lie that they have done great works and miracles in his name yet Yahoshua will say to them I never knew you.

You're such a party-pooper!

2nd lion

Å99

akushla99

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You're such a party-pooper!

2nd lion

Å99

I can relate to both of those words...without the hyphen...

2nd reppicheep

Blueracer
Pretty recent. 1914.

Incorrect. This is the date Jehovah's witnesses claim Satan was cast from heaven. This date comes from watchtower propaganda. ( a publishing company who is responsible for mass producing a cult. Only 144,000 go to heaven. The rest stay on a paradise earth version of heaven. I am disfellowshipped by the cult.

reply to post by Belcastro


The best theory is that Lucifer fell between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Fact is that everything -earth, sun, moon & the universe, except for life itself was already created in Genesis 1:1. In later verses of Genesis it explains that things on earth were made (changed) to make it habitable for life, not created. We can say re-created. Confusion can set in with later verses.

Between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 could have been a long, really long time. But, we will know for sure, one day. At this moment I try to concentrate how to grow spiritually more than trying to understand those things I cannot while in flesh.

To add - This "theory" is from a group i study with. It is a 3 year course I am doing, and the guys have been studying/researching these things for just under 30 years. Some scary things one learn. Truth hurts and it's tough, but heals.

reply to post by AmberLeaf


I look at this more like the heinous idea of "pre-crime". The Bible's God is omnipotent. He knows what is in your heart, and what you would do in any situation at any given moment. But he is also "fair". You must actually pass or fail the test.

The fall of the angels took place just prior to mankind moving into permanent settlements and beginning agriculture and writing. So that would be 6,236 B.C.

April 19th, in the afternoon.

reply to post by Belcastro


Satan/Lucifer fell prior to the re-creation week beginning in Genesis 1:2; and after the physical creation mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

After God created the physical realm countless millions/billions of years ago, God place Lucifer on the thrown of physical Earth (Earth was much different then). No humans existed at the time of Lucifer's reign in holy righteousness and unity with Almighty God. Millions of years passed in peace.

Then God revealed the awesome plan for the creation of Elohim (God's family) through physical mankind.

Lucifer disagreed with God's plan and rebelled against Him, trying to usurp God's thrown in Heaven.

He failed, and after the war between the angels that remained faithful to Almighty God (2/3rd) and those who joined Lucifer in rebellion (1/3rd) His name "light barer" was removed from him, for he no longer represented the light; and God gave him the name he bares to this day Satan (The Accuser).

There is no specific date for the angelic rebellion recorded in scripture, but if you look at Earth's history there is a moment in time in which life was obliterated (dinosaurs extinction level event) recorded in the Earth mantle (layer of dirt in which no life is present). My guess would be around 65 million years ago.

After this war, the Earth was made void and full of chaos as a result of it, and darkness covered the waters... and THEN (after a period of time) God said "let there be light" as He began re-creating the Earth for mankind to dwell upon it in 6 days.

God Bless,

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Excellent contribution.

Yes, Age prior to destruction (Lucifer ruled in unity with God) then Lucifer rebelled and all life was destroyed.

Age of Mankind's self rule (last 6000 years of Earth's History) according to their desires as influenced by Satan (Lucifer's title was changed to reflect his new profession).

And soon to come the Kingdom of God on Earth (144,001 spirit beings ruling the Earth for 1000 years) after the return of Jesus Christ on a Pentecost.

The only truth missing from your theory is that mankind did not exist before Adam. Your understanding of the ages is well founded.

Thanks,