Should venues deny services to people based on their race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

Gay Weddings Flower Case: Dispute over Washington Florist Refusing to Serve Couple Goes to Court

The Washington state attorney general's office sued the shop owner, Baronelle Stutzman, saying she violated consumer protection law by refusing service in March to longtime customers Freed and Robert Ingersoll.

Under state law, it's illegal for businesses to refuse to sell goods, merchandise and services to any person because of their sexual orientation.

Stutzman says she has no problem with homosexual customers but won't support gay weddings because of her religious beliefs.

My mom is a religious person, and we have had quite the dispute about this, she refuses to understand the concept of the Golden Rule or the whole point of Christianity, in my opinion - how could you support discriminating against people? How could you support judging and hating people as a Christian?

However, it was through arguing with my mom about the case that I was finally able to articulate a good answer to the question - why don't businesses have the right to refuse service to people they are prejudiced against?

If the reader looks at Washington State Law, they will find that the business clearly violated the law. My mom asserts that the business owners had the right to refuse service to the gay couple because they didn't agree with gay marriage.

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Well, the thing is, that would set a precedent - now all businesses would be allowed to refuse service to gays. And that is not okay - refusing services to someone because of their political beliefs or such nonsense crosses a very different line than disagreeing with them.

If that doesn't convince the reader, think of this - the precedent would then be set (by law) for businesses to refuse service to blacks, whites, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Democrats, whoever - and that would make going shopping as much about knowing the political orientation of your venue than anything else.

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I think in our society, that is the United States, White people are forgetting that they are going to be a minority within 30 years or less - that means, for the first time in this country's history, any kind of action they take regarding discrimination would set precedents that would affect them - and yes, unfortunately, that is what it takes to have empathy for many people. But is empathy so bad?

I don't agree with certain folks turning certain other folks away and refusing to do business with them.... but I do live in America. I believe that if you own a business then you should have the absolute right to serve who you want, how you want, when you want, etc.

The decision would then be made by the people. Oh, Rob down the street isn't selling to so and so... we won't shop there anymore either. That is the way it should work. I know it won't be a popular opinion, but it is mine nonetheless.

If I want to open a shop that only caters to ginger people (I jest), then I should be allowed to do it. Would it be a little ridiculous? Yes. Would I miss out on a lot of other business? Yes. Businesses are built on more stupidity than that all the time it seems.

It isn't the way I would run my business.... but if it is the way Joe Jack runs his? Who am I to tell him he can't?

Is it ok to refuse service to a bunch of skinhead nazis ? Because they have just as much right as the gays. But only when we think it's acceptable do we agree.

Private business owners should be allowed to deny service to whoever they want, for whatever reason they have.

You are not entitled to be able to purchase goods. It is not your "right" to buy from whomever you wish without condition. The stuff isnt yours, you have no say over who it goes to.

It would be a lot more truthful world if we all just dropped the pretense and PC bull#. Some people dont like other people, get over it. Its been that way since the dawn of humanity, and will surely be that way during its twilight.

If you are denied service one place, instead of throwing a temper tantrum and screaming and stomping your feet, go to the florist thats 3 minutes away and be done with the whole issue.

I wonder if the State's Attorney Generals are SO caught up on fraud, abuse and the wide range of other cases, that they have absolutely nothing better to do than start assigning manpower and resources over who a shop will or will not sell flowers too?

People are hurting, food stamps are cut right before most needed into the Holiday season, Obama Care rates and uncertainty has everyone on edge, while fraud by phone, mail and direct solicitation by scammers and con-men seem to be the among the only truly booming businesses going.

Amid all this....a sale or refused sale of flowers is the priority? REALLY?!

They fist fight on the deck of the Titanic while it's in it's slide down toward the depths...hoping we'll stay pleasantly amused and engaged in the side show long enough not to notice the big picture.

We're going to be the most politically correct 3rd world nation in history when this crap is done.

I like how a lot of fellow Americans complain about rights, yet in our constitution, it states that every man is equal. So, if every man were considered equal under our constitution, why is gay marriage still outlawed? You can't simply pick who gets what right, and who doesn't. It's clearly unfair.

And from a Christian perspective, one of the ten commandments is love thy neighbor. And suppose for the sake of argument, that all of the neighbors around you were gay, you would be violating that commandment, which would be considered a sin. The commandment doesn't make any exception to gay people at all.

The whole gay debate is getting so pathetic. It always comes down to a religious 'violation.'

You can't get a good enough reason as to why gay marriage is wrong unless it involves religion. Because other than going against a religious faith, you can't come up with a solid reason as to why gay people shouldn't be around, or be married for that matter.

Why would you want to live in a world full of discrimination?

people want small Government and they want their constitution upheld but only when it suits them and their "way" they want the government out of their business but they want the government to grant them laws to discriminate, they don't want you to touch their amendments, but we can forget the other ones...

i have been discriminated against multiple times for being Gay and it continues and you will always hear me claim that i would fight for anyone's right to freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of expression etc but why would we actively allow discrimination of any kind?


if you start a business that is open to the public it should not discriminate against anyone, regardless of your beliefs

Wrabbit2000
Amid all this....a sale or refused sale of flowers is the priority? REALLY?!

They fist fight on the deck of the Titanic while it's in it's slide down toward the depths...hoping we'll stay pleasantly amused and engaged in the side show long enough not to notice the big picture.

We're going to be the most politically correct 3rd world nation in history when this crap is done.

Well Wrabbit... I'm more of someone who is interested in laying down a good argument than keeping the same set of opinions. That made me laugh. And it's a legitimate argument.

As for Lingweenie, you do a good job of showing how Christianity has morphed into some very dark, non-Christian force lately. Just like your status says, I'm disappointed as well.

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Caticus, I used to agree with you, but I don't anymore - black people used to suffer the same fate, and still do in some states, and it affects / affected their ability to get services and equal protection under the law. Denying commerce to someone based on their political beliefs is a way to circumvent Democracy.

In some cases, it could go so far that a gay couple would not be able to live in a certain city or state because it would be so prejudiced that they would not be able to get basic services like food, shelter, transport, health care and water.

I don't see how promoting a society that doesn't even provide those basic services to all people regardless of their political views is an acceptable one in a 1st world country.

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I will give you a shout-out though, I used to think it was okay because they could find services elsewhere, but I actually just remembered this picture.



I used to joke in history class that the black water fountain was running off the runoff of the white one - but it's not so funny anymore that we've gone backwards as a society to where we have to worry about this kind of thing again.

As Wrabbit argues, our country might be losing our first-world status, and I think he has as pressing of a point as any of us. But I don't think any one of you or I should be proud of it, and we're certainly not going to be able to fix the problem if we are so divided.

alphaTango
Is it ok to refuse service to a bunch of skinhead nazis ?

Yes, if the Skinhead Nazis are being nice enough to send flowers....

And OP; tell your mother that God invented gays as a form of population control. S/He works in Mysterious Ways and it's not up to her to judge.

Funny how often Bible Thumpers use their 'Holy Book' as an excuse to hate.

(Devil's advocate, don't shoot)

I believe that we should go with the old standby that its a private business and nobody can tell them what to do with it- they can exclude anyone they want for any reason because that's freedom.

Then we'll just buy all the grocery stores, stop selling food to Christians, and this whole mess will be settled forever in about 2 weeks.

darkbake

Caticus, I used to agree with you, but I don't anymore - black people used to suffer the same fate, and still do in some states, and it affects / affected their ability to get services and equal protection under the law. Denying commerce to someone based on their political beliefs is a way to circumvent Democracy.

Well Im not sure about that... if 51% of the the mob agrees that person of type X should be denied, type X person being denied is totally inline with democracy.

People want others to conform to a standard for their own personal convenience. Thats what all this is about, at its core. Its not about "rights", ethics, morals, democracy, or freedom at all to most people. To most people its about getting others to act in a way that is convenient for them personally, and theyll slap any concept that works into the "in the name of [blank]" field to get it done.

The push of PC culture and all the superficial niceties that go with it is a suppression of human nature, which is discriminatory, prejudice, and segregative. When you want a not preferred trait to stop manifesting, you do not bottle it up and pretend it doesnt exist. That NEVER works, ever. It only gives you the flimsy illusion that that trait is no longer present.

When you want to resolve an undesirable trait, or memory, or habit, or addiction, or whatever it is, you confront it, you be truthful about it, and you stop bottling it up and pretending its not there.

We live in a fake society. I dont care what world level it is; its fake. Its not real. The people in it are liars to themselves and to their kin. Its a fantasy land thats neither amusing nor convincing.

Outlawing a behavioral trait doesnt make it go away. It just suppresses it, and allows that trait to fester in resentment of being suppressed, rather than to resolve naturally by being allowed to express and work itself out.

I don't see how promoting a society that doesn't even provide those basic services to all people regardless of their political views is an acceptable one in a 1st world country.

I promote a society of truth and honesty. If the truth of an honest people is that they dont like other people, then so be it. Theres nothing I can do to change that, nor would I try. The truth is the truth, whether its liked or not, whether it is in my personal favor, or not.

But whatever the truth is, I would choose it any day over the fiction we live in now.

a) businesses are private property

they have the right to refuse service to anyone they want.. You can be denied entry to private property and trespassed

otherwise,
Clubs cant be made to make people wait outside or deny entry

(really sucks when a friend cant get in but you did.. )


b) each business is free to an extent to run its business

no need to have the government get involved here..
IMHO it is a stupid business decision.. Because the margins are so THIN in that line of work..

All it takes is for grown people who do not like that business's operation model to decide to not do business with it.. Money talks BS walks

The only leg they could argue on is what the courts rules over churches firing people because they are pregnant out of wedlock..

c) as for discrimination

They have to have a vaild reason

each excuse has to be measured against other customers and guest at the weddings
if they do not ask if guest or Bridesmaids or Groomsmen are gay
or for that fact if guest are gay

Do they order stuff online.. At restaurants
Do they ask for stuff certified Gay free

yes I feel a case is valid.. in civil court
it goes not to discrimination IMHO but instead libel.. damaging reputations
the jury might consider discrimination as an add on

I am not a lawyer.. my Opinion


Conclusion

If two people want to get married they have the right to make each other miserable.. its in the constitution somewhere right...

It is a bad business decision.. I would want the money..

Prediction.. business might pick up.. but the reputations might just fail..
longterm.. means nothing.. get hitched and invest the money into things couples need .. The JP will do fine

Wrabbit2000
People are hurting, food stamps are cut right before most needed into the Holiday season, Obama Care rates and uncertainty has everyone on edge, while fraud by phone, mail and direct solicitation by scammers and con-men seem to be the among the only truly booming businesses going.

Amid all this....a sale or refused sale of flowers is the priority? REALLY?!

It's perhaps more relevant and important than some people think wrabbit?

This type of restriction or negative freedom is one of the reasons for success of civilisation. As far back as 9000BC these types of laws were used in ancient Sumerian market places. The general understanding was that if you are in the market place you are there to trade and trade fairly. You weren't there to promote politics or war, or draw divisions. This created a busy and welcoming economy.

If the American economy drops to third world levels this type of legislation will be very relevant. Imagine particularly cruel business persons selling food at twice the price or only to certain demographics.

The same logic applies to things like zoning laws. Can you imagine if you bought a house and someone put a sewage plant on the lot next to you, ruining your investment?

In a good economy it's just the loss of a sale, in a difficult economy it can be the difference of life and death.

When I was about 20 me and a few mates went on an improtu pub crawl, we had 1 beer in every pub we walked past on the way to our destination. We were in an area of Melb called Collingwood, we had no issues until we got to 1 pub. We lined up and when we got the door the bouncer told us "not tonight guys".
We werent drunk, we were dressed well so when we asked why we were denied entry they told us it was a gay night and the people inside wouldnt feel comfortable with us there!!!!!

To say we were blown away is an understatement, If the bouncer had of just said "you guys know this is a gay bar right?" we probably would of had a laugh and went to the next pub, what was really ironic for me was that about 2 weeks earlier there was a massive thing in te MSM about 2 gays being booted out of a pub for kissing.

Essential services no one should be denied, but pubs, clubs, restaurants, florists etc etc if they dont want ur business for whatever reason take it elsewhere, simple.

Im neither anti or pro gay, who u shag is ur own business and I dont wanna hear about it regardless of who u do boy or girl but this just pisses me off, this lawsuit just makes the guy look like a whiny little b***h

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


You can deny them for any reason, except if the reason is that they are part of a protected class. Don't want to make a gay wedding cake? Just say "No, I don't like your shoes, they are insulting to me personally, I am offended. For that transgression, you are not welcome at this place of business anymore, leave or I will call the cops and have you escorted out."

reply to post by The Vagabond


May I just comment that I love that your reaction to something that you disagree with politically is to want to essentially starve a good chunk of the people that hold that position.

And that you're willing to risk starving millions of people that actually agree with you in order to prove some point that is completely invalid anyway because it takes the idea to the extreme example.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus

You are not entitled to be able to purchase goods. It is not your "right" to buy from whomever you wish without condition.

But people are entitled to sell goods? That doesn't seem fair. If you want the entitlement to sell a product, that shouldn't give you the right to serve who you want, when it suits you. If your business isn't providing a public service, the public has no need for you.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Last I checked businesses were private property. No one should be forced to conduct business with someone they do not want to conduct business with. If I don't want to work on someone's house, for whatever reason, I am going to work for them, no explanation other than I do not want to work here is needed. Someone calls me for an estimate, I get there and there is nazi memorbillia all over, I am not working there, end of. I am sure no one would find that offensive.

If some dumbass don't want to do business with certain people, their loss aint it. It's not like they are taking their money, then refusing service after or something.

reply to post by Pinke

The same logic applies to things like zoning laws. Can you imagine if you bought a house and someone put a sewage plant on the lot next to you, ruining your investment?

Can you imagine if you had everything tied up in a business and you then had every aspect of it's daily operations dictated to you by people far far away, at the point of a financial gun every bit as real as one loaded with bullets? Do...Obey...Comply..or be run into total financial ruin. In this case? Over who some flowers get sold to.

Again? I really think our nation has FAR FAR more important matters, right this moment, for it's law enforcement structure to be focused on. After all the Attorney's General office of each state is the last and best line of defense (well... It used to be) against predators who would rob people of their savings or more.

If Washington is free of all such things? Heck, then I suppose focusing on a flower sale is reasonable. Is Washington state free of all such serious matters the AG's office ought to be focusing on? A state without serious fraud and organized scam problems? Sounds like utopia on the Pacific to me.

...or a land where Politically Correct has gone totally insane.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


devil's advocate

noun
1. a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.

(emphasis added)

I'm not seriously suggesting that we starve anyone. I'm simply making the point as to why commercial property rights differ from true private property rights.

I've seen this argument played out before, and it never fails that a few highly indoctrinated people are so obtuse that they cannot concede why we already have laws that cover this stuff going back to the civil rights movement.

What you are saying, when someone in your community comes to you with his wages and you tell him they're not good for anything at your business, is essentially "You've done your part for this society- either you trucked in my food or you built my house or picked up my garbage so I don't get some horrible disease, but that doesn't count because of who you are- you're out of the group and we're stealing the work that you did and leaving you holding green paper that nobody is going to honor".

Nor does my example have to go to any unrealistic extent to come to fruition. Let's be very practical about it for a moment. Let's even take out the discrimination part and make it pure pursuit of rational self interest. Let's get together and go to some small backwoods town that's got one grocery store and one gas station and not a lot else- we'll buy out the two businesses and stop selling to locals, we'll make things so unpleasant that people start moving away, and we'll buy up their houses at a deep discount. We will make far more money by not selling groceries to a few hundred people than we ever could by doing so- who has the right to tell us not to run our business that way and why so?

Let's face it intellectualredneck, if I tried that in your neck of the woods I'd be killed by someone and the verdict would come back that I needed killing.

If you don't like the people who come in to your business, move your business- lots of startups lack the business sense to locate where the customers they want are going to be- nothing to be ashamed of.