What is your opinion (dealing with mentally disabled?)

reply to post by Vortiki


Well coming from a rough area growing up I guess it would be instinctive of me as not only a parent but a human being to scan the place whilst entering and during. In my peripheral I would always be aware of whats going on. Have my child on the other side of me. 9 times out of 10 preventable I believe.

reply to post by James1982


I can't really give my opinion as it would upset too many ATS'rs.

Let's just say that when an animal is born in nature with severe physical problems or mental problems it most likely dies...it's natures way.

People on the other hand feel we must save EVERYBODY, it doesn't matter that their quality of life will
be terrible and it will cost huge amounts of money down the road so they can lead that suffering life.

I am going to preface my post with a few bits of information.

I am a father.
I am a pacifist.
I am a survivor of childhood violence.
I am a strong advocate for the developmentally disabled.

What I saw in that video is a man defending his son.

No other factors play into this.

It doesn't matter if this person is developmentally disabled, fully capable, super human, an android, or a cartoon character. If someone strikes a child, it is well within expectation for an parent to protect their child by any means necessary.

Nothing criminal happened, however. The kicker most likely has legal protections, as does the parent.

As a mother, what I would have done was push the man away from my child, as hard as I could. Then, standing between my child and the man (to protect my child), I would quickly assess whether my child was hurt, and remove the child from the situation as quickly as possible. The thing that is important, is to remove the threat from your child. You can choose to do that in a less violent way, like pushing him away -- or you can do it in a more violent way, like punching or beating. I guess a man's reaction is to punch, but that wouldn't have been my reaction, especially when he only did a half-hearted kick, then he just stood there.

As to why the young man did what he did -- my guess is that in his peripheral vision, he saw someone running as if to attack his mother/guardian. He was probably just acting protectively, sadly enough. But, I understand the father not knowing that.

mwood
reply to post by James1982

 

I can't really give my opinion as it would upset too many ATS'rs.

Let's just say that when an animal is born in nature with severe physical problems or mental problems it most likely dies...it's natures way.

People on the other hand feel we must save EVERYBODY, it doesn't matter that their quality of life will
be terrible and it will cost huge amounts of money down the road so they can lead that suffering life.

Yeah, the Nazis were pretty big into Eugenics too. The problem with your line of thinking is that when you open the door, you make two classes of citizens, and when the division happens, the line can be moved to encapsulate other undesirables.

Like Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, or anyone else you deem genetically inferior.

reply to post by James1982


The man in the video that kicked the kid may have not known what he did was wrong. It would have had to be taught to him just the way that other kids learn what is acceptable. I know people with kids with problems and the parents treat the kids like they are eggs with brittle shells. These kids need to be disciplined if they do something wrong just like all kids do. How can you learn the difference from right or wrong if you are not told the difference.

I know that sometimes parents in the past were not happy with their children with issues like Downs and they would take out their frustration on the kids sometimes. It is hard. The kids would get beaten or downright ignored since they did not live up to the parents expectations. We get dealt a hand and have to play out that hand. No matter what the cause, the right upbringing must be upheld in order for a kid to later fit into society. Some of these people could do janitor jobs or even work in a factory. Trouble is we exported the jobs so they can't earn a living anymore. These kind of people used to get paid less than someone who could do more sophisticated work but at least they could earn a living, gaining a little self respect. Now we put them on disability instead of the employers letting them earn a living.

Everything got messed up when we sent the jobs to other countries, jobs that anyone could do. Our low class is growing beyond belief, the numbers are getting so large that the middle class can't support them. We need to level the field, the government needs to correct their problem and give incentives to start factories here in America again. They should also make it policy to disallow corporate takeovers or purchases of factories when the intent of the company is to close a factory to destroy the competition. These small factories employed some of the people who can't do the technical work of the new era.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Very true.
But in some cases death is a blessing in my book. I dont want anybody to suffer more than they can handle in this life and sometimes the ends does NOT justify the means. I hope that the ppl that profess to know & love me would have the balls to let me go sooner rather than later if I reach a place where I cant wipe my own arse. or swallow my own food let alone feed it to myself. I am a lover not a hater and my psyche tells me that is the kind thing to do. I am not saying disabled ppl should be seen as a lower form of person or be dead, what I am saying is treat ppl with the same respect that you expect and that is why I am of this opinion. Also I must point out that I have obviously moved on from the relatively minor disability that is downs and speak of vegetable states and such.

reply to post by rickymouse


Are you for real?
If a outwardly looking "normal" man was to walk up to a child and kick them would you be asking if he had been taught it was wrong as a child?
Also what are you going on about that people with less of a disability to be able in employment of some sort should be payed less than the minimum wage? minorities are not second class citizens in a civilized world

mwood
reply to post by James1982

 

Let's just say that when an animal is born in nature with severe physical problems or mental problems it most likely dies...it's natures way.

People on the other hand feel we must save EVERYBODY, it doesn't matter that their quality of life will
be terrible and it will cost huge amounts of money down the road so they can lead that suffering life.

Sad when even Neanderthals were more compassionate than this. There is a great deal of evidence that they cared for the crippled and injured for a long time after these people became infirm. Everything from broken bones that werent set making the individual complete dependant on their fellows for food and shelter to amputees who survived and were cared for. How do we know this? Osteophytes at fracture points and at the end of amputated limbs. Maybe they understood far better than you that the quality of life equation was better processed by those most affected and not by armchair quarterbacks.

reply to post by peter vlar


The same behavior is also found in mountain gorillas. There are gorillas that have been encountered that have hands missing from the machete wounds of poachers, and these gorillas were cared for by the collective.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Well surely it goes without saying that if a limb were to be lost or an injury incurred or a loss of certain faculties was taking place or social or learning difficulties or any type of deformity or loss of sight,hearing etc... the people that love you would care for you till the end, But I really do not think that I could live year upon year with a child that is suffering crippling pain or brain damage so severe that there is no way of telling if they are able to know anything. Then My own morals direct me to the belief that they would be better off out of this dimension and off to the next consciousness

reply to post by Vviena1606


that sounds more representative of your own misgivings because you don't know what the child would or could be thinking or feeling than about the actual quality of life they're having. I get your point. I just don't think I could do that to one of my own though. Of course I also don't think they're going to any sort of heaven so I don't have that guilt easing comfort thing going for me.( that sounds far more harsh than I meant it so please take that with a grain of salt or 3).

Vviena1606
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Are you for real?
If a outwardly looking "normal" man was to walk up to a child and kick them would you be asking if he had been taught it was wrong as a child?
Also what are you going on about that people with less of a disability to be able in employment of some sort should be payed less than the minimum wage? minorities are not second class citizens in a civilized world

In factories, Employees that can handle more technical jobs or are required to do jobs that are harder or more dangerous get paid more....upwards in the area of 18-20 bucks an hour plus bennies and vacation, holidays, overtime, and some sick leave. What is wrong with hiring a disabled guy to sweep the floors and pick up things for ten bucks an hour plus the benefits. It is not profitable to pay the disabled guy as much as someone who can do a job well and makes the company money so why should the employer pay him the same rate. I never said less than minimum wage in my post. You assumed I was saying that.


The man who attacked the guy who kicked his kid was justified. I would have grabbed the man by the throat myself until the loss of blood flow to the brain made him collapse. I speak of the problems we are creating by not teaching the young properly to fit into society.

At a few jobs I had in my life, there were handicapped people working on restricted types of work. They were making a living and not on assistance. They were happy as hell on two thirds of the pay of the other workers but the cost effectiveness of their work was also two thirds of the other employees. Everyone usually liked these guys and treated them decently because everyone should have a right to work if they want. There were some people that were too handicapped to do this though. People have to feel like they are worthy in this world and can support themselves partially at least.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

What I saw in that video is a man defending his son.

You seem to have missed the bit in the vid where the father allows his son to get so far out of his immediate reach that a grown man was able to deliver a feeble-looking kick to his treasured offspring. His protective instincts would have been sadly lacking had his child's attacker been a real violent criminal.

As someone who looks after people with learning disabilities/autism/downs etc I have to just say a little.

Everyone born has the same human rights for a decent life, our society is right giving these people the chances in life we all have, obviously because of their condition they can not do everything but as carers we find out what capabilities they have and do our best to make sure they have the chance to do what they want.
My company has a bakery and a massive gardening project and pay our service users to work in them, they bring home the fruits of their labour and we all enjoy it while they get payed so they can also have a better quality of life.
Out in the public it can be very hard with some of them, you can't take your eyes of them for a second due to their understanding of what is and what isn't socially acceptable.
Train the staff well and hopefully no problems will arise but they do and it is how you deal with the situation that matters.
Oh and to the person who wants them to be left and die...shame on you.

Oh and yes the father was right to defend his child, I know from experience that people with LD can be violent that is why we sometimes have to use restraint techniques (even in public) to protect ourselves, the public and the service user.

reply to post by boymonkey74


I thought I'd just established that the father didn't defend his child? If his son's "attacker" had delivered a proper kick, the child would have been seriously injured, and the protective father's response would have been a little too late.

reply to post by IvanAstikov


I can't watch the video due to PC problems at the mo (GRRRR).
From what I can gather someone failed in the risk assessments they put in place for the disabled guy.
I can't blame the disabled guy (without knowing his past history) neither the person who struck him.
The company I work for have a niche in the UK we take in the most challenging LD people in the country, we have so many risk assessments for each of our service users and we have to follow them all but sometimes they can surprise you and do something different.
The good news is that once we start working with them their challenging behavior does wane and It is due to giving them as much Independence and respect that society has not given them so far.
I just hope the disabled dude gets the help he needs.

Can't believe I'm the only one that thinks this has been deliberately staged for 'you tube'


# Why is the woman still standing at the counter, this is a fast food outlet
her drinks are there why wouldn't she pick them up and walk towards the exit taking
the young man still talking on the phone out with her?

# As I have already mentioned there are not many customers around for a Mcdonalds
every time I pass one there are always customer queues at the counter!

# The child's 'father' comes in empty handed .... in the ensuing scuffle the
drinks on the counter are knocked back on the counter and picked up by the man
behind the counter. The 'father' picks up what appears to be a beaker from
the floor? and takes it with him as he leaves! (he came in empty handed)

# There is no body language of a concerned father with the child, he
just picks up the beaker and walks off with the child following. Wouldn't a 'concerned
father' check out the child was OK before walking out?

eletheia

Can't believe I'm the only one that thinks this has been deliberately staged for 'you tube'


# Why is the woman still standing at the counter, this is a fast food outlet
her drinks are there why wouldn't she pick them up and walk towards the exit taking
the young man still talking on the phone out with her?

# As I have already mentioned there are not many customers around for a Mcdonalds
every time I pass one there are always customer queues at the counter!

# The child's 'father' comes in empty handed .... in the ensuing scuffle the
drinks on the counter are knocked back on the counter and picked up by the man
behind the counter. The 'father' picks up what appears to be a beaker from
the floor? and takes it with him as he leaves! (he came in empty handed)

# There is no body language of a concerned father with the child, he
just picks up the beaker and walks off with the child following. Wouldn't a 'concerned
father' check out the child was OK before walking out?

Someone earlier mentioned they thought it was fake (or was that you?)

I could see it going either way, originally I assumed it was real. It looks authentic to me. I'm no authority on the subject however. But the scene itself doesn't look any different than McDonalds that I've been in before.

Your first concern, she could simply be waiting for their food or some additional item. Depending on how busy the place is I've just stood at the counter until my food was ready, because I usually order just one or two burgers and nothing else so it's rather quick. I don't see anything about the people standing there that would indicate this was fake.

The second point you bring up, about there not being enough people, just isn't true. Obviously different McDonalds are going to have a different volume of customers at different times of day depending on tons of factors, I don't know why I even have to point this out. I've been in fast food places with tons of people, and places with nobody other than me, it varies, it seems you are really reaching here.

As for your third concern, why would you assume the father would have something with him? You don't know where he is coming from. They could have just entered the building, in which case they would be empty handed. They could have been waiting for their food, in which case they would be empty handed. They could have been seated and eating and gotten up for some reason. You seem to be reaching even more than your last point with this.

The last point you bring up doesn't seem to match with what the video shows either. The video is very low quality, it's impossible to make a clear assumption on the facial expression of the father. To me he looks angry and as he walks away he looks down at his son, and then puts his arm out or the boy grabs his arm, something like that. After he strikes the disabled man he is standing over him and talking with the woman for a little bit of time. It's reasonable to assume she was apologizing and/or explaining things to the father, and then the father was a bit more at ease but still angry. And once again, as he walks away he does acknowledge his son and takes his arm and possibly says something to him.

This video could very well be fake, but there wouldn't appear to be any clear motive in doing so as the video isn't exactly winning anybody celebrity or dollar signs, nor is it claimed or promoted by anybody. The only thing I'd say is that the place doesn't really look much like the McDonalds around here, although they could be different regionally or they could be wrong and this didn't take place at McDonalds but somewhere else.