When Did Religion Start?

Science nor religion can fit underneath each other's banners, but both are instances of the branch of philosophy known as metaphysics.

NiNjABackflip
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Language, which includes religion, started likely during the Upper Palaeolithic Age, where there was a "creative explosion" in cave paintings, artifacts and idols. Around 50,000 years ago.

Aren't those cave paintings magnificent? Those were some intelligent people to make them as big as they are. And some of the cave paintings in Lasceaux show animals that could not have existed in Europe, but they must have because the artists knew about them.

Elephants, wooly mammoths and Chinese horses, all in the cave paintings. And all done magnificently. True artistic geniuses for some grunting cave men.

reply to post by WarminIndy

I knew you were going to say that. Yes, some people who went to camps were Christian. But not because of that exclusively, because, in your cited case "they were helping the Jews". 7th Day Adventists and Jehovahs witnesses did too. Are they Christian? How anti life was Hitler? He hated everyone. The Nazis didn't discriminate, they killed everyone.

If you want to focus on Christians exclusively thats your rut to be stuck in.

Sorry about off topic OP.

Done here.

intrptr
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I knew you were going to say that. Yes, some people who went to camps were Christian. But not because of that exclusively, because, in your cited case "they were helping the Jews". 7th Day Adventists and Jehovahs witnesses did too. Are they Christian? How anti life was Hitler? He hated everyone. The Nazis didn't discriminate, they killed everyone.

If you want to focus on Christians exclusively thats your rut to be stuck in.

Sorry about off topic OP.

Done here.

Then I guess there were Christians who did go to the camps.

On topic is where did religion start, as people think it began with Christianity and can't see anything else.

reply to post by WarminIndy

On topic is where did religion start, as people think it began with Christianity and can't see anything else.

Indy, this is something I have never come across. WHO, exactly, thinks it "began" with Christianity?

Fundamentalist geogentric or YEC proponents?

I can say I've never met or spoken to a "Christian" who denies that the OT exists (maybe the Gideons?). I've been around the block, talked to LOTS of people - but maybe what you mean to say is that people think religion started "When Jesus Arrived." ???

JESUS was NOT the beginning of "religion" - and anyone who is preaching that, or hearing it, is in dire need of assertive CORRECTION. Good Gawd.

Really? Where ARE these people you are talking about?

reply to post by wildtimes

Indy, this is something I have never come across. WHO, exactly, thinks it "began" with Christianity?

Didn't you know? God left the first four books of the Bible with Adam and Eve. Kind of like a text book to follow?

reply to post by wildtimes

I think the OP is addressing critics of religion who say "religion" when they mean "Christianity", a usage which at least implies that "religion" began with Christianity.
Hence the attempt to explain that religious beliefs are an ancient and natural development of early man's view on the world rather than someone's late and deliberate invention (until modern times, anyway).

reply to post by DISRAELI


reply to post by intrptr


Yeah, guys, I know.

Thanks

wildtimes
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

reply to post by intrptr

 

Yeah, guys, I know.

Thanks

Exactly, Disraeli

Wildtimes, you wouldn't believe the things I have heard Christians say...well, I think you would. One time when I drove someone past the Jewish synagogue in that town, they asked me why it had the menorah decoration in the window. When I said "That's the Jewish synagogue", they said "The Jews? I thought they were in Bible times".

Then there are Christians who think that witches are like Bewitched.

But yes, when people say "organized religion" they usually are hinting that it is only Christianity that was organized. And if you went to a lot of Christians and said "Abrahamic religion" they would have no clue what you are talking about.

I even heard one Christian say "Those Muslim men are good Christians, they go to church". This was referring to the Muslim men they worked with.

From my experience, it is on both sides and some Christians are very disorganized.

Some Christians just make the left eyebrow raise and the right side of my face twist in confusion....sometimes they make me say "whaaaaa???"

But non-Christians also do the same thing. I have come to discover that most people don't even know what the Bible says, and that's on both sides.

ETA: Why does ATS not allow window to be typed? I typed it twice and both times got an _

reply to post by WarminIndy

And if you went to a lot of Christians and said "Abrahamic religion" they would have no clue what you are talking about.

I even heard one Christian say "Those Muslim men are good Christians, they go to church". This was referring to the Muslim men they worked with.

From my experience, it is on both sides and some Christians are very disorganized.

Oh, my. We have had VASTLY different life experiences, Indy.

Not know what the "Abrahamic religions" are? Ok.

*deep breath.......exhale.........another deep breath*

Ok.. Now, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, that people wouldn't know what "Abrahamic religions" means.
I said I'd never come across any "Christians" that were unaware of the roots of their beliefs.

But.........I have had some deep experience with a 21-year old "1%er" - the only child of a Wall Street magnate and his wife. One was Catholic; the other a Jew. (I don't know which). This youth had received NO education about religion in any form. .... the other youths that were present had far more knowledge and were able to appreciate the irony of the film; and one of those was my own child. We were watching

RELIGULOUS (Indy, I suspect you probably loathe Bill Maher and his attitude.......but that documentary is a VERY profound reflection of this society at this time.)

Of the five of us (me being the sole middle-aged new-ager), only the 1%er (NOT my child) was confused; totally unable to appreciate the subject matter, as if the movie was in another language. Seriously.
As we progressed through the film, we discovered that this 1%er had NO concept of ANY of the icons presented in the film.

So, I acknowledge your point that not everyone is aware of the 'prevailing global dogmas' - Absolutely.

In fact....this youth had had NO training, and was not a "Christian." As a matter of BALD FACT, I think that is GREAT - because at 21, one is able to (if curious) seek. To seek out various povs, religions, doctrines, traditions, etc. And even then, they're probably not fully equipped to understand religious concepts in a mature way.

But "Christians" are actually unaware of these things? That's....mind-blowing. Thx for sharing.

reply to post by wildtimes


Most probably consider it irrelevant. All that matters is that they are but a speck in the eyes of the Lord, praise be to God, and thank Jesus for taking their crap and not walking away.

reply to post by wildtimes


I don't loathe Bill Maher and he has freedom of speech and press. So he says what he wants because he has a right to do so. I will defend his Constitutional rights, even if I don't agree with him. I remember Bill Maher as the pizza delivery guy in that movie, so he's come a long way. And he is funny sometimes.

But he isn't any different than Jon Stewart either, they both tend to be a little against the kind of Christianity they perceive as strange. They are more likeable than Michael Moore though.

Meh, Bill Maher is just saying his opinions, what's to get upset about him? Is he dangerous? Absolutely not. But I think Christians should watch their critics to see exactly what people are so critical about. And if there are criticisms that are justified, then it needs to be addressed and fixed.

I don't think I am a Fundamental Christian per se, there are many things that I have seen in Christianity that are man based traditions and nothing more.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Meh, Bill Maher is just saying his opinions, what's to get upset about him? Is he dangerous? Absolutely not. But I think Christians should watch their critics to see exactly what people are so critical about. And if there are criticisms that are justified, then it needs to be addressed and fixed.

I don't think I am a Fundamental Christian per se, there are many things that I have seen in Christianity that are man based traditions and nothing more.

Exactly.
Christians SHOULD watch their critics, which I think is becoming more 'mainstream ideology' every day (at least on the websites that I frequent). The criticisms ARE largely justified. This relates back to the other thread about "Understanding Religious Opposition."

And, btw, I find Jon Stewart to be an oasis of reason and common sense, as well as Stephen Colbert.

IMO, they could declare that they are running for Co-Presidents and I bet they would WIN.

The system needs an overhaul. No denying it. Stewart and Colbert would get it done. I'm SURE of that.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Most probably consider it irrelevant. All that matters is that they are but a speck in the eyes of the Lord, praise be to God, and thank Jesus for taking their crap and not walking away.

Who are "they", please?

The Christians who don't know...or the previously unindoctrinated?

reply to post by wildtimes


You should know me well enough to know the answer.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Most probably consider it irrelevant. All that matters is that they are but a speck in the eyes of the Lord, praise be to God, and thank Jesus for taking their crap and not walking away.

I actually heard someone say in church one time that walking upright before the Lord means you don't have to walk around with your head hung down in shame. They took the upright as in meaning vertical, rather than right and just.

I've seen people come to the altar to pray to forgive them for their recent drug overdose, just to go back out and buy the drugs again. And I really don't agree with all "jailhouse salvations" because I think many are just doing that so the justice system goes easy on them, then they get out and nothing has changed.

The problem is there is a concept for some Christians that others call "greasy grace". It means that no matter what you do, God shows you grace. Even if you killed someone, God shows grace.

But these are man made traditions that originated with St. Augustine and then John Calvin. Ugh, can I say that I am no fan of Augustine? What these early "church fathers" did was merely insert anti-Semitism into Christian dogma. John Calvin justified burning John Servetus at the stake because of a disagreement. His fanboys created a new conspiracy to throw blame from him. He is the one who Calvinism is named for. And there was the Malleous Maleficarum. That book was nothing more than an attempt to kill everyone who wasn't Christian and created a book of superstitious folklore in order to target people they didn't like. So the things Christians did, are things followers of certain men did. Not all Christians were followers of Calvin and certainly not all Christians bought into the Malleus Malefecarum. Some people really did a lot of bad things in the name of Christianity, but not the belief of Christianity.

But ignorant Christians who know nothing more than just show up on Sunday, clap an hour and a half for music, listen to a sermon then go out to eat at Applebee's, are giving Christianity a black eye. This was a faith that in the beginning people gave their lives for, but men put so many doctrines and creeds in, they put people in bondage because of it.

But my original post was that religion didn't start with us and that every religion has bad intentioned people in them as well. I disagree with the caste system of the untouchables, but am I allowed to criticize it? People make it seem that if I do, then I am doing it as an agenda of Christianity. How do we get past that so we can see that some Christians really do care and have compassion?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You should know me well enough to know the answer.

Yeah. Just checking. I don't know you except for what you show us.

Quite. Got it.

reply to post by WarminIndy

The problem is there is a concept for some Christians that others call "greasy grace". It means that no matter what you do, God shows you grace. Even if you killed someone, God shows grace.

But these are man made traditions that originated with St. Augustine and then John Calvin. Ugh

BUT ONLY if they were 'predestined' and therefore, would willingly be drawn to Christ. Those not of 'the elect' were doomed, no matter what.

Here you're talking about the TULIP thing...right?

Frightening.

reply to post by wildtimes


Gimme a break. I hand that line to people who presume to tell me how I feel. You should know how I feel by now. This is one of my most vocal subjects.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Ah. My contentions are broader than that. It's more of a principle thing, really. Whenever I walk into a church while service is going, I am persistently struck by the dogmatic, archaic, cultish antiquity of what is being said. I could easily imagine a Halloween movie using their words as a chant for some obscure backwoods initiation. In fact, the distinctly Orwellian taste of it just makes me want to stand up and scream.

Fear is love. Faith is knowledge. Oppression is security. You must fear those whom you love, faith will tell you everything you need to know, and you are only safe as long as you are in chains.

The systematic denigration of the human species, even of animalism for that matter. Slowly and steadily convincing ourselves that to be of this world is a bad thing, and so we must spend our lives staring longingly at the sky, wishing not only that we were not human and not here, but wishing for something that is entirely unrealistic and much much worse than what we are right now.