Narmer/Egypt Eight Deer/Mixteca Undeniable Comparision

This thread will compare the use of similar iconography in the Nuttal Codex of Mixteca origin with the famous Narmer Platte of Egypt and other per dynastic art found in Scorpion/Eight Deer dynasty artifacts and records.







With this first example note the grabbing of the fore hair on the captured victim, the raised club, pointed beard, formal tail, ect.

I will show much more information but for now just this to wet the appetite. The implications are obvious here but I will add supporting and just as fascinating evidence that these cultures had a shared influence. And not a simple shared influence but the same school of iconographic use in their royal communications. Feel free in the meanwhile to comment.

This is my own research and you are seeing it here for the first time in a public viewing.

reply to post by Logarock


Interesting
Always appreciate evidence reflective of cross-cultural similitude.
Definite resemblance here - awaiting further evidence before forming significance.


LOVE

reply to post by awake1234


For starters they were both represented with the Orion icon and in the same context of a unification/conqueror record. The representation iconography of the conquered being taken by the hair is also widely found in the ancient old-world.

Also not the four "sashes" on both the garments.


LOVE to you.

reply to post by Logarock


Orion icon??
And they do both have four "sashes" which is interesting, but requires more than two pictures for more complete comparisons to be presented. Perhaps the hair-grab is prevalent in the ancient-world, but so is pouring water from pitchers. Not condemning this - only feel more evidence needs exhibited...but then, you did say much more will be shown.
So what is the significance, aside from the obvious implications of cross-cultural influence, of this particular iconography?


LOVE

reply to post by Logarock

Back in the 1980s on PBS, I remember watching a program showing a "high Andes Mountains Native culture" perform a ritual dance in colorful costumes and performing a historical battle very similar to the 1st picture.

This isn't searchable though...too old.

reply to post by Logarock


Interesting thread and nice catch noticing the psycho-historical and iconographic parallels

*COUGH!*
however your picture of 8 Deer isn't from the Codex, it's a modern rendering
cart.occpaleo.com...

but it's all good, as the search found me a nice pdf with pics for later study
unless my eyes betray me here's the original Codex page


Dissertation by Robert Lloyd Williams: CODEX ZOUCHE-NUTTALL, PAGES 1-41: NARRATIVE, STRUCTURE, CONTENTS, AND CHRONOLOGIES.
repositories.lib.utexas.edu...

The entire reverse side of the Nuttall Codex is dedicated to the life of the most celebrated ruler of the Mixtecs: a legendary king named Eight Deer, also known as Jaguar Claw (1063 – 1115). This great sovereign, compared even to Quetzalcoatl, was the only Mixtec ruler who during his reign achieved the unification of the 3 Mixtec empires: the Upper, Lower and Coastal, but not without great exertion, marriages, alliances, wars and bloodshed.
[...]
The Nuttall Codex shows 8 Deer taking captive a boy named 4 Wind, the son of his former love 6 Monkey. However, this is obviously an act of propaganda, which does not correspond to the truth. We know from other codices, that 4 Wind, who was barely 10 years old, was hiding in the cave of the bats during his brothers´ defeat.

www.angelfire.com...

apparently Narmer's defeat of the papyrus people up until recently was considered propaganda by the academic consensus
as no record of them had appeared until recently [as described in video]

www.youtube.com...

the dragging of the defeated [in submission] by the hair, obviously, like many parallel symbols appearing in both the new and old worlds goes back to prehistory.

Indeed, I imagine many of our older members may recall seeing this in cartoons
applied to women, by cavemen.

F&S
hopefully our resident experts can chip in [despite it being a Sunday, worst & slowest day to post]

reply to post by awake1234

Orion icon??

iconic pose actually

reply to post by Metaphysique


Ok it may be from a rendering but its not like a translation of words. It will suffice very well.

I do have a decent copy and will try to scan it down for you forest for the trees guys.


As for the dragging by the hair I have many examples of this found world wide in ancient royal art having to do naturally with military action. Its a basic and learned iconographic communication.

awake1234
reply to post by Logarock

 

Orion icon??
And they do both have four "sashes" which is interesting, but requires more than two pictures for more complete comparisons to be presented. Perhaps the hair-grab is prevalent in the ancient-world, but so is pouring water from pitchers. Not condemning this - only feel more evidence needs exhibited...but then, you did say much more will be shown.
So what is the significance, aside from the obvious implications of cross-cultural influence, of this particular iconography?


LOVE

Yes pouring out of vessels as a offering ect is found as well in both Egypt and Central america and in context.

The significance of the shared use of iconography shows that it was learned from the same school. That the central american cultures did not develop in isolation but were schooled in the same traditions. More specifically that the scribes and artists that were responsible for the royal histories and communications were taught these things within the framework of their own cultural style. I will also go as far as to say that Egyptian and Maya, Mixteca ect could read and understand each others pictography.

I have said Orion but its probably a rendering of Hercules. Anyone that knows who Hercules was in relation to Babylon will identify him in Narmer and Eight Deer Jaguar Claw.







Note in this Roman rendering the similar headgear with teeth and even claws on the chest to the headgear of the above Jaguar Claw. In both cases the animal is a cat and is represented of the Shamanistic essence.

For those of you who don’t buy into the mainstream explanation of The Narmer Palette (like me), I will strongly recommend this web-site which offers a detailed explanation. It is in my view a must read.

The Narmer Palette Explained:

Part one – The namer plate is a sky chart. : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part Two – Osiris, the lord of precession : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part three – The substituted secrets : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part four - The sacred gateway : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part five - The four standards : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part six - The great conjunction : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part seven – The twelve ages of the Zodiac : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...
Part eight – Baal and the Beltane festival : ancientegypt.hypermart.net...

The site also offers lots of other related stuff, which is very educational. Enjoy.

No matter what you are trying to chop off, you would always hold the chopping instrument in one hand, while fixating the object to be severed with your other hand.

In other words: Someone from Africa would chop wood in the same way as someone from Europe does. That does not mean that they share the same wood chopping culture.

It is always effective to chop anything vertically than horizontally.
That is why, people have to put their head on chopping blocks or guillotines (not voluntarily of course) so that the blade chops down.
Since no one would voluntarily show their neck to be chopped, the guy who is going to chop would naturally pull the victim by his head, forward and downward. simple.
if a Chinese was doing this chopping or a viking or a German or a Brit were doing the chopping, the physical postures would be almost same.
Nothing to link between cultures.
Seriously.

reply to post by coredrill



Its not about chopping techniques and angles. But always good for a laugh when you amateurs drop in. Seriously.

Logarock
reply to post by coredrill

 

Its not about chopping techniques and angles. But always good for a laugh when you amateurs drop in. Seriously.

Aah. when you read something that doesn't agree with your "theory" you would stoop or get down into the pig sty to call out "amateur" etc.

As if the grand gentleman had a couple of PHDs, but less of an analytical mind.
Seriously. shove it.

Debate to the point. Not on persons. Capeesh?

Sheesh!!

coredrill

Logarock
reply to post by coredrill

 

Its not about chopping techniques and angles. But always good for a laugh when you amateurs drop in. Seriously.

Aah. when you read something that doesn't agree with your "theory" you would stoop or get down into the pig sty to call out "amateur" etc.

As if the grand gentleman had a couple of PHDs, but less of an analytical mind.
Seriously. shove it.

Debate to the point. Not on persons. Capeesh?

Sheesh!!

Dude you have demonstrated that you don't even know what you are looking at. I am only going to field criticism from folks that understand what I am posting even if they don't agree. It would be impossible to debate the point with you as you don't have the tools and understanding of the subject matter to field a good debate. At his point you are simply a troll over your head.

Metaphysique
reply to post by Logarock

 

Interesting thread and nice catch noticing the psycho-historical and iconographic parallels

*COUGH!*
however your picture of 8 Deer isn't from the Codex, it's a modern rendering
cart.occpaleo.com...

but it's all good, as the search found me a nice pdf with pics for later study
unless my eyes betray me here's the original Codex page

By the way that's not the original codex page. It does have some similar iconography.