Remember all the talk about the ammo shortage and prices ? It just got worse .

www.thefirearmblog.com...

“The last remaining lead smelter, in Herculaneum MO, is closing down. This will undoubtedly affect the price of lead, since the lead that is mined in Viburnum MO will now be sent out of the US for smelting

EPA demands and the cost of those demands (est. 100 million) shut down a factory which has been in operation in Herculaneum since 1892. Federal, and Lake City ammo manufactures are located in that area?

Another source is our old friend A.J. and his network which has a video out on the subject.

Skip to 2:40 minutes


Good news is China does 3 X more lead smelting than the U.S. maybe they will be our suppliers now ? OOps forgot about the whole U.N. Arms trade agreement thingy sitting in the wings....?

Maybe nothing to worry about ? Maybe one more step to make the firearms basically paper weights or wall hangers for the average American? Either way with the cost and limited supply of ammo we have experienced these last two years the training/plinking time has been reduced already for most gun owners.

Copper jacketed DU.... plenty of nuclear waste is being stored? (*sarcasm)

I wondered how long it would take this story to make it here.

I guess the big question is how much of the domestic lead production for bullets was being done by this one smelter, and whether or not China was a signatory to the UN Treaty because I doubt we will ratify it even though Kerry signed it. Of course, you never know with this administration whether or not that will hold any weight with them as Obama did signal arms control under the table.

It does mean that they might now be able to Federally control all ammo sales in the US now that lead has to be brought in from overseas because of EPA restrictions. Remember how we aren't even supposed to be allowed to sell toys with too much lead at garage sales now? I'll bet they try to restrict and track lead sales. That might be how they get their registry under the table.

I guess the good news is that the Mexican cartels the administration refuses to restrict in any real way will likely be more than happy to add ammo to their inventory if things get truly bad.

reply to post by ketsuko


Apparently it was considerable, as many of the US's major ammunition manufacturers had offices, warehouses, and manufacturing around that smelter. Federal, Lake City, and Remington are three notable ammunition companies who had a large presence in the region because of the smelter.

reply to post by 727Sky


I have to call it as I see it. This happened under the Bush administration, not Obama's.

Doe Run made significant efforts to reduce lead emissions from the smelter, but in 2008 the federal Environmental Protection Agency issued new National Ambient Air Quality Standards for lead that were 10 times tighter than the previous standard. Given the new lead air quality standard, Doe Run made the decision to close the Herculaneum smelter....

reply to post by Galvatron


All the more reason to hate the EPA with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns.

I get not wanting a bad environment, but they are ridiculous and getting plain unnecessary. If I ran the budget they'd go back to being a tiny field office in the Dept. of the Interior.

By hook or by crook. Obama said he was going to do something about gun control well here ya go.
No executive orders required. Just sic the EPA on the problem.
Now the Feds have all the ammo they need to last for 100 years we can have whatever is left.
What? Nothing left?
"You fear mongers, they're not coming for your guns, stop with your crazy conspiracies!"
They were right: they didn't come for our guns, just the ammunition.

On the bright side black market lead should be about the same as gold soon.
Good thing I have a bucket full.

reply to post by TDawgRex


It would seem all the threads we see at ATS saying there is some puppet master behind the curtains pulling the strings toward some grand plan might have more fire than smoke after all?

All I know for sure is there has been a major cost increase and a limited supply these last two years; supply and demand? Is it because of all the new gun owners, government purchases, or some really long term puppet master plan? Results seem to be the same regardless... Hopefully with the California ban on lead someone will come up with something that works; I ain't smart enough unless it would be some type of explosive head which would not leave much if you wanted rabbit or squirrel for supper? Even pellets for pellet guns will be effected.... Robinhood anyone? Steel or pig iron copper coated to a depth that would allow the rifling to work but there goes fragmentation...small hole in and small hole out unless tumbling happens; which for hunting larger animals is just cruelty ... I don't even use M855 on feral pigs but prefer the soft nose or hollow point for wound channel and DRT..

Asktheanimals
By hook or by crook. Obama said he was going to do something about gun control well here ya go.
No executive orders required. Just sic the EPA on the problem.
Now the Feds have all the ammo they need to last for 100 years we can have whatever is left.
What? Nothing left?
"You fear mongers, they're not coming for your guns, stop with your crazy conspiracies!"
They were right: they didn't come for our guns, just the ammunition.

On the bright side black market lead should be about the same as gold soon.
Good thing I have a bucket full.

edit on 31-10-2013 by Asktheanimals because: added comment

edit on 31-10-2013 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)

The EPA was sicced on the this company back in 2008...under Bush. But there is a smidgen of good news, I think.

The Herculaneum smelter is currently the only smelter in the United States which can produce lead bullion from raw lead ore that is mined nearby in Missouri’s extensive lead deposits, giving the smelter its “primary” designation. The lead bullion produced in Herculaneum is then sold to lead product producers, including ammunition manufactures for use in conventional ammunition components such as projectiles, projectile cores, and primers. Several “secondary” smelters, where lead is recycled from products such as lead acid batteries or spent ammunition components, still operate in the United States.

I expect the price of lead to rise as well.

Woo Hoo the price of lead is about to go up and I have LOTS of it not just a ton or two either. Copper usually goes up in Feburary and led should be close behind

reply to post by 727Sky


Hmmmmm, not just will this effect ammo, but what about fishing? Lead sinkers are a must have in most fishermen's tackle boxes.....

I realize that fishing isn't a right, however, many families rely on fishing for food on their table.....

The plot thickens...

reply to post by 727Sky


The lack of lead will affect a large segment of society. The same society that likes quick fixes now even though they will be disastrous for future generations.

It seems to me that critical thinking is pretty much dead nowadays. Everything is based upon emotions.

It'll be harder due to shortages and more expensive to balance tires.

The fishing aspect was already addressed.

Counter weights used in manufacturing. (After all, a lead ingot weighs more than a steel one)

Etc, etc...

TDawgRex
reply to post by 727Sky

 

I have to call it as I see it. This happened under the Bush administration, not Obama's.

Bush and Obama march to the same drummer in the long game that is the NWO.

reply to post by 727Sky


Not to worry. China will produce the same ammo cheaper just as we now get cheaper ammo from the formerly Soviet countries. 'Course, there could be complications of a multitude of types, import restrictions, export restrictions, etc. But as for right now, no problem. The Chinese folk get to eat lead in ways most of us can't imagine.
(I know, bad joke.)

Aliensun
reply to post by 727Sky

 

Not to worry. China will produce the same ammo cheaper just as we now get cheaper ammo from the formerly Soviet countries. 'Course, there could be complications of a multitude of types, import restrictions, export restrictions, etc. But as for right now, no problem. The Chinese folk get to eat lead in ways most of us can't imagine.
(I know, bad joke.)

we get ammo from S. Korea, Israel, China, Russia, Ukraine and more.
While this will most likely have an impact on pricing/availability of certain brands, but since we already import ammo I image the price of that will stay relatively the same.

reply to post by 727Sky

Good news is China does 3 X more lead smelting than the U.S. maybe they will be our suppliers now ? OOps forgot about the whole U.N. Arms trade agreement thingy sitting in the wings....?

Restrictions on arms is not the same thing as restriction on lead.

I have a hard time how people don't understand why this happens… In the 80's it was environment this/environment that. BAN PFCs, Save the whales! Stop pollution. Hell, it gave us the cheesy Captain Planet cartoon.

What did everyone think the consequences of that would be?

Yes, crap jobs are evaporating and lakes and rivers are swimmable again. No one really cared about keeping grunt labour alive as they are not far off from slaves. But people miss being grunts.

I think the major failure is North America didn't plan changes within the educational system to get people into intellectual jobs, finance, service, etc… Jobs that can take in international business to help offset the loss in production/manufacturing/industrial.

So some will argue China wins. What do they win? China is a cesspool of pollution. What it took North America to do to itself since the industrial revolution, China has far exceeded those pollution levels in a decade.

Imagine that.

So… Some people say "TPTB" are trying to kill you all off. Well, the truth is business powers have exported all their dirty business to China (Chemical processing, chemical & plastics manufacturing, metal and rare earth [radiation] processing and India (the latter mainly textiles), so much so that the Chinese landscape will be decimated for years to come.

And while Americans complain "They took r jobs!", what you don't realize is the pollution those jobs caused were the focal point 20 years ago. People asked for this!

China, it's leaders, who have sold out the beauty of their continent, will walk away rich from the business interactions, which only government can be a part of, and can't operate without… and I surmise, in 20 years there will be an exodus, as the pollution there is unsustainable, and no one (rich or not) wants to see every next member of their family get 8x cancers at an early age.

This will all probably have to be cleaned up by the people left over. And if China thinks its going to be a world power, with the kind of pollution going on there, they really need to think about how much effort and cost it's going to take to fix their world after it resembles the planet Venus.

They think they are getting rich, they are getting poor, and there is a really good reason environmental laws came into place in the 80s. Our lifestyles are not sustainable, someone has to bite the bullet for us to live the way we do. Right now, China, India, Africa, among others, are biting the bullets.

seeker1963
reply to post by 727Sky

Fishing weights are not really relevant.

Batteries account for 85 percent of lead demand, compared with 27 percent in 1960, according to the International Lead Association in London, whose members include Xstrata and BHP Billiton Ltd. Vehicles make up 60 percent of battery consumption, according to the ILZSG, created by the United Nations in 1959. Demand is also coming from sales of electric bicycles, each of which requires 12 to 55 kilograms of lead, and there are about 157 million of them on China’s roads.

85% of a commodity's use is relevant.

www.bloomberg.com...

reply to post by boncho


Those were some good points you made... As far as the plant pollution @ approx. 3:22 in the video it says the plant had pioneered a process that totally eliminated 99% of any smelting pollution.

727Sky
reply to post by boncho

 

Those were some good points you made... As far as the plant pollution @ approx. 3:22 in the video it says the plant had pioneered a process that totally eliminated 99% of any smelting pollution.

It says "would have" if the process worked.

Keep in mind that Alex Jones is an idiot, so when he sees a lead plant closing he comes up with, "OMG they is taking ur bullets"… God knows who funds him…

Think about it for a minute, AJ had funding to get where he is, and whether it's stateside or expat business interest, political, or what have you, he leans on a certain side of every issue that probably benefits someone, even if there is a modicum of truth. Sometimes we simply don't get the whole picture. Lead plant closing? Yes. Same one that polluted the hell out of the state for year and years. How many retarded children are there from the pollution?

And how much poisoning does it take for a company to become persona non grata? From 2010:

​The Environmental Protection Agency announced today that St. Louis-based Doe Run -- North America's largest lead producer -- has agreed to spend approximately $65 million to correct violations of environmental laws at ten of its lead mining, milling and smelting facilities in Missouri. The settlement also requires the company to pay a $7 million civil penalty.

blogs.riverfronttimes.com...

And today:

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said the company “made a business decision” to shut down the smelter instead of installing pollution control technologies needed to reduce sulfur dioxide and lead emissions as required by the Clean Air Act.

www.stltoday.com...

Seems AJ is talking out his arse once again.

Where should you stand on this issue. Well, you can be mad they sent jobs overseas. But then again you can be happy they aren't destroying your backyard anymore. It was a business decision which was probably made because it was much cheaper to export pollution than pay for pollution controls.

Americans ought to be happy about this (the short sighted ones), what is really needed is a total cut in how much we use of everything, and worldwide environmental controls. Because pollution has a nasty tendency to affect everyone indirectly.

I highly doubt this will ever happen. Reducing pollution would increase cost and lower production, to the point we would have a fraction of what we consume now. And us humans, love to consume…

Lead is extremely toxic to humans, that's why the EPA is restricting it.

What happened to protecting life?