How do you feel about the state of the society ?

reply to post by Spookybelle


No rudeness taken friend.
Our society is bad in a DIFFERENT way. We aren't struggling for food, shelter, we are struggling trying to prevent the earth from being depleted for the future of our race.

We are also not in the dark here on ATS, and you know what comes in our future. WE just want to stop it from happening.

reply to post by Luuke123


Yes every generation faces their own unique problems and ours is no different. We are struggling with resource problems as well as climate problems and the effects of all this on mankind will probably be decided by which path the nations of the world set us on today.

But when we are looking at society as a whole, and are comparing it to past living conditions, there is little doubt that the problems of old had more of a negative effect on people than what we face today. If we had the ability to look down on earth as an outsider and gauge what society was feeling I think one of the biggest things we would see is apathy.

People generally are not worried about very much. Sure the resource issue and climate change, the changing Earth as a whole are all serious but not in the immediate sense. It certainly isn't forcing us to change our day to day routine or if it is its a very minor inconvenience.

There are no great problems tearing families apart such as civil rights, or young men being pulled out of the family unit to go fight wars overseas. There is no imminent threat that our nation may be invaded any day.

Look at the turn of the 19th century and the industrial revolution and how that flipped society on its head. Rural families were turned impotent in a matter of years and in order to survive you were almost forced into a city environment. Look at the complete control that government gave to business with their Laissez Faire policy and how young children were worked 14 hour days.

To think that society today is worse than what past generations have had to face is ridiculous and, in my opinion, rather selfish. Although many things are not perfect in society today, we often take for granted what we do have.

Spookybelle
Being an historian I can say without a doubt that society today is far, far better than it has been in past times. Of course each generation thinks they are facing the worst of times and that society is degrading but that is because they have first-hand knowledge of it and experience it every day of their lives.

Had they been alive for say a thousand years their perspective would change drastically. Our society, at least in the US, is far better than it was even 50 years ago and it is wise to not look at history through rose colored glasses.

Today we worry about debts going out of control or government spying, who we are attacking across the globe this week, or corporations stealing money. Good things to worry about but they pale in comparison to some of the times when absolute fear gripped the nation.

We idolize times such as WWII and the great heroic efforts the allies made yet we easily forget that while it was going on we did not know if we were going to win. The Cold War had people living in fear that at any second an atomic weapon may be dropped on them or during the Red Scare people saw a communist plot around every corner.

These are fears that no longer exist on a societal basis. The examples are many of the changes the world has gone through and the fear that accompanied it. The incorporation of electricity into society set many people into believing that the end of humanity was just around the corner.

So I would say that if you professed to someone a hundred years ago about how bad off we are, that they would probably laugh in your face.

Go ahead and mention to a man trying to feed his family during the Great Depression how bad our society is and how helpless you feel.

I don't mean to sound rude but before you complain too much about our harsh society today, it might do well to read a history book or two.

So just because it was worse before I should be greatfull for this mess ? sorry but I find that completely unacceptable. And what makes you think I don't know history ?

reply to post by Spookybelle


Thats what gets me most, it doesn't force us to change our day to day activity, but it SHOULD.
We shouldn't worry about unavoidable death because half of our deaths are unavoidable simply by SOCIETY AS A WHOLE changing DAILY activity. If 2 billion people stopped smoking cigarettes for one year it would slow global climate change by two years. Its simple knowledge, yet we the people, me included (im no better than your average American politician) go day by day by day by day destroying ourselves and our future. Its this that keeps me and millions up at night, its destroying my happiness, my ability to be happy and clear headed. Sometimes its just too much.

Edit: Im not just talking about POLITICALLY im talking about Environmentally and physically, as well as the atomic level of the universe, our actions have effects FAR greater than we realize. Think about this question; Do we affect the atoms of a carpet when we step on it? Yes we do, we are physical, its the butterfly effect.

So just because it was worse before I should be greatfull for this mess ? sorry but I find that completely unacceptable. And what makes you think I don't know history ?

I never said you should accept it, all I said is you shouldn't assume that today is worse then it has been before. Many today believe that society has been spinning out of control and that we are close to the end of the rope so to say but that actually isn't the case.

Societies go through changes, some good and some bad, and I would describe today, even given the problems we face, as one of the good times overall. Honestly, look around you and tell me what you think the absolute most threatening thing to society is at this very moment.

It may take you a few minutes to figure it out which should tell you that there are no extreme pressing problems that other societies have had to face.

I also never said you didn't know history but knowing it and being able to contextualize history in relation to societies today is an entirely different matter.

For instance, can you look at certain periods in Roman or Greek history, particularly Athens, and find similarities with their society that we currently face today?

I can and I can say without a doubt that the events that led to the fall of those civilizations are nowhere near anything we face today.

Luuke123
reply to post by Spookybelle

 

Thats what gets me most, it doesn't force us to change our day to day activity, but it SHOULD.
We shouldn't worry about unavoidable death because half of our deaths are unavoidable simply by SOCIETY AS A WHOLE changing DAILY activity. If 2 billion people stopped smoking cigarettes for one year it would slow global climate change by two years. Its simple knowledge, yet we the people, me included (im no better than your average American politician) go day by day by day by day destroying ourselves and our future. Its this that keeps me and millions up at night, its destroying my happiness, my ability to be happy and clear headed. Sometimes its just too much.

That is the larger difference I was making. Some past societies were forced to change just in order to cope while we today have the option of "we should do it."

That is quite a big difference when looking at societies as a whole. Lets look at China as an example. The time is quickly approaching when they will be forced to change their ways because of the pollution problem. People's lives will be radically different and it will not be a choice. This type of event has happened throughout history and is quite different than what we face on a whole today.

You could put this into perspective by using the changes which have occurred since 9/11. Its no longer to do certain things we previously did but its relatively limited in its effects. Society as a whole is not overly affected by this problem but its evidence of a society changing event.

Now look at a time in history when the automobile replaced the horse as the main means of transportation. Society was turned on its head with people losing work, new jobs opening up, lives being changed because of the rapidity of transport, goods could now be moved faster... on and on and on. I have many articles from doomsday people writing about how this was going to be the end of America.

This also happened with electricity and I'll share one of my favorite stories from 1901 I believe:

ELECTRIFIED PORTSMOUTH, NH BRIGHT IDEA IN 1900?

JANUARY 1900
A Reporter's Notebook

Electric, electric, electric! The way people bandy that word about nowadays, you'd think electricity is the new salvation of mankind. That attitude is particularly "on the wire" this week as the Old Town by the Sea hurtles relentlessly from the comfortably familiar 19th century into the unknown landscape of the 20th.

We have long acknowledged the value of the telegraph, bringing us speedy long distance communication, but bringing with it, an unsightly army of poles and wires that pollute the view of our historic city. Now comes the electric telephone, which offers promise. It promises, detractors fear, to strike at the very sociability of our community. People who would normally seek out each other's company, may now speak over a wire, and so far, with minimal fidelity. Still, the prophets (or should we say "profits") tell us that some two million telephone receivers may be in use by this time next year in 1901. Whether all these gentle people truly have something worthy to say, remains a mystery.

But to see the future, a local pundit informs me, one need only walk down Water Street at night where the incandescent glow of electrical lights beckon hapless sailors from across the Piscataqua to visit houses of adult entertainment. Vice and corruption, it seems, have deep pockets. Electricity is the new Jezebel, seducing our young men into the arms of immorality.

www.seacoastnh.com.../

Spookybelle

So just because it was worse before I should be greatfull for this mess ? sorry but I find that completely unacceptable. And what makes you think I don't know history ?

I never said you should accept it, all I said is you shouldn't assume that today is worse then it has been before. Many today believe that society has been spinning out of control and that we are close to the end of the rope so to say but that actually isn't the case.

Societies go through changes, some good and some bad, and I would describe today, even given the problems we face, as one of the good times overall. Honestly, look around you and tell me what you think the absolute most threatening thing to society is at this very moment.

It may take you a few minutes to figure it out which should tell you that there are no extreme pressing problems that other societies have had to face.

I also never said you didn't know history but knowing it and being able to contextualize history in relation to societies today is an entirely different matter.

For instance, can you look at certain periods in Roman or Greek history, particularly Athens, and find similarities with their society that we currently face today?

I can and I can say without a doubt that the events that led to the fall of those civilizations are nowhere near anything we face today.

Hey I respect the fact that you are a historian and naturally you will look at things from a historical point of view but nowhere in my post did I admonish the terrible periods in time our ancestors went through to get to where we are today. History is important, there is a lot of lessons we should have learned by now and it would do us all a great service if we payed more attention to history but this doesn't make today's problems any less worse than what they are thinking like that.

You may not feel threatened just now but it is that short sighted attitude that is destroying us, do you think our way of life is sustainable ? it may not affect you straight away but let me tell you it will eventually and if not it will be your kids or there kids etc etc

reply to post by GreyGoo


You seemed to outline a precipice that humanity is standing on with only two ways to go, one is salvation while the other is destruction. My only point was to contradict that view that societies do not necessarily have to hit a wall and I was using past examples to illustrate this point.

By showing that societies have indeed faced more tumultuous times than we have today, and came through it without having to make that choice, that we are probably have not arrived at that point in time yet. Yes our problems may seem that our world is doomed, but as I showed with the electricity article, its usually not quite as bad as people make it out to be.

But you are correct, it is wise to look at history to determine our fate.

Spookybelle
reply to post by GreyGoo

 

You seemed to outline a precipice that humanity is standing on with only two ways to go, one is salvation while the other is destruction. My only point was to contradict that view that societies do not necessarily have to hit a wall and I was using past examples to illustrate this point.

By showing that societies have indeed faced more tumultuous times than we have today, and came through it without having to make that choice, that we are probably have not arrived at that point in time yet. Yes our problems may seem that our world is doomed, but as I showed with the electricity article, its usually not quite as bad as people make it out to be.

But you are correct, it is wise to look at history to determine our fate.

I love history. I respect historians. Respected Howard Zinn. Heck, I even partly
funded a movie Howard Zinn appeared in:

www.imdb.com...

And I understand your perspective... the 'sky has been falling' since day one
for humans.

That said,

Humans are poised to destroy the entire ecosystem, at least sufficiently
that complex mammals won't be able to live here.. I really don't care
if roaches inherit the future...

In the past, humans could destroy bits of nature here and there.. but
our numbers and our technological prowess were very limited. We
would crap up a small area then move on.

Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies
by Jared M. Diamond (Apr 1, 1999)

and other very bright men make clear the way human societies
collapsed in the ancient world.

now multiple those same factors by 1 million .. (due to our
population, technology, and complete lack of concern for our ecosystem)

and the future is pretty gloomy indeed --- and NOT comparable to past
historical episodes.

A 7 mile wide rock (from 65 million years ago) is not qualitatively
or quantitatively the same a rock the size of a football from history.

That's what's coming our way.

Now will the human race survive? Probably.. in miserable pockets.
Might humans rebuild into a better civilization in a thousand years?

Maybe.

But I don't like 7 mile wide rocks swiping the planet Earth at thousands
of miles per hours and knowing that we humans created it. (metaphor).

KPB

I agree that history is relevant to today's world.

I also believe that civility, common decency, good manners, and a general sense of the most basic kindness towards others is starting to cause tears in the very fiber of what makes us human.

People delight in seeing others suffer, they scheme and steal,they teach their offspring to bring others down so they may rise above walking on their backs!

I've never encountered such snobbery, such condescending attitudes, such a lack of eye contact in simple acknowledgement of another spirit as I have in the past 5 years or so...

Some say there is a " collective consciousness" and if this is so,it's full of a dark negativity even a faux superiority that gives me cause to worry for those I love.

Most people just aren't very "nice" anymore.I believe there are good and caring people for sure but it's becoming harder to feel compassion for fear it will be considered weakness and preyed upon.

I think many need a wake up call: something that will level the playing field and allow either cooperative humanity to create a future full of hope or to thin the herd of the predators.

It just can't continue as it is, history repeating or otherwise.

Spookybelle
reply to post by GreyGoo

 

You seemed to outline a precipice that humanity is standing on with only two ways to go, one is salvation while the other is destruction. My only point was to contradict that view that societies do not necessarily have to hit a wall and I was using past examples to illustrate this point.

By showing that societies have indeed faced more tumultuous times than we have today, and came through it without having to make that choice, that we are probably have not arrived at that point in time yet. Yes our problems may seem that our world is doomed, but as I showed with the electricity article, its usually not quite as bad as people make it out to be.

But you are correct, it is wise to look at history to determine our fate.

I wholeheartedly hope that you are right Spookybelle and my 1st scenario is wrong, thanks for clearing that up. That first paragraph was interesting there, seems to reflect my personality.

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


I understand your logic and that book is, of course, a classic in the historical world. Really put out multiple solid theories.

However you are missing one important fact. Humans have always adapted. While it is true that they have destroyed pockets and moved on, those pockets have gotten larger and larger and yet it has not slowed down the human species in the slightest. If anything, we have increased our consumption even though we reasonable should have run out of resources by now.

What happened when we over hunted? Why, we learned to grow our own food. What happened when that food was no longer enough to sustain our population? We organized our plots to grow even more.

What did we do when we killed off all the game in an area? We didn't starve, we started cultivating our own herds to meet demand.

"But the Earth is overpopulated and running out of supplies", you say.

I would retort that we could giver every man woman and child an acre of land and fit them into Australia or for the cost of the Iraq war we could build enough desalinization plants to give every person in the US fresh water on a daily basis.

Humans are unique in not only their destructive capabilities but also in their drive for self-preservation. If we were as destructive as many claim us to be, we would not have survived this long. There is no problem facing the human species that we do not already have the technology to fix.

There has only been one time in history when the human species was threatened with extinction and I believe that was during the Younger Dryad period when our population dropped to around 5,000 or so. Don't quote me on that as its been awhile since I took anthropology. But you get my point I think.

reply to post by Spookybelle


"There has only been one time in history when the human species was threatened with extinction and I believe that was during the Younger Dryad period when our population dropped to around 5,000 or so. Don't quote me on that as its been awhile since I took anthropology. ) But you get my point I think. "

They had oxygen.

I'm not convinced we will have sufficient oxygen to think rationally.

I don't call a future where we all buy oxygen by the minute a future.

I could link you material that shows what happens if the suboceanic
methane melts.. it's literal venus .. 1200 F.

There are limits to human adaptation.. and we might hit them.

Now, might I be wrong? Might humans 'adapt' by eating rats and
offering their children to volcano gods again?

Great.. just Great..

If you do the math.. there will ALWAYS be a point of no return..
will we hit it? Don't know for sure.

But humans, as a whole don't seem to know or care the possibility
exists.. and this great mass of sheep bleating won't be participating
in solutions to prevent those futures.

KPB

hey. I don't have the energy or desire to get mixed up with the historical POV. the academic analysis has been interesting and appreciated.... but is irrelevant.

i want you (the op) to know that your distress call has been heard. it was honorable and sincere and born of a perspective which is difficult to understand by people who are not plagued with chasing themselves around their own minds ceaselessly.

what you've said was needed.

tgidkp
hey. I don't have the energy or desire to get mixed up with the historical POV. the academic analysis has been interesting and appreciated.... but is irrelevant.

i want you (the op) to know that your distress call has been heard. it was honorable and sincere and born of a perspective which is difficult to understand by people who are not plagued with chasing themselves around their own minds ceaselessly.

what you've said was needed.

Thank you, it means a lot

Annunak1
reply to post by GreyGoo

 

Society does not affect me anymore. I see things clearly now. All is how it must be. The planet and it's population are going in a new phase. The golden/aqaurius age is here. The book Bhagavad Gita has helped me greatly understanding life's many questions. It's my "bible" . I hope it can help you 2 on ur path

The new phase you are talking about is transhumanism. You want that?
Are you sure that the golden/Aquarius age concept isn't one that's orchestrated by the PTB?
I tried reading The Bhagavad a short while ago, but was discouraged as the story starts off by giving an account of fighting amongst the Gods. Why is there always fighting amongst the Gods!?!

Tucket

Annunak1
reply to post by GreyGoo

 

Society does not affect me anymore. I see things clearly now. All is how it must be. The planet and it's population are going in a new phase. The golden/aqaurius age is here. The book Bhagavad Gita has helped me greatly understanding life's many questions. It's my "bible" . I hope it can help you 2 on ur path

The new phase you are talking about is transhumanism. You want that?
Are you sure that the golden/Aquarius age concept isn't one that's orchestrated by the PTB?
I tried reading The Bhagavad a short while ago, but was discouraged as the story starts off by giving an account of fighting amongst the Gods. Why is there always fighting amongst the Gods!?!

Because 'gods' are never actually 'gods'. They represent various
states of mind and being in stories like that. For example in
the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna is not a warrior and Krishna not
an incarnation of god.. Arjuna would be the personality and
Krishna would be the Higher Self.. at least that is one common
way of spinning it. The enemies would be parts of the personality
or soul which need to be purified.. etc etc.

Spiritual teachers use various holy books as teaching tools..
you can pretty much take any book and make it say that
cracker jacks are the root of all evil.. and actually have
your student benefit from the teaching..

As far as I know, not one SINGLE book in the ENTIRE world
speaks literal truth about a literal, physical god.

Now.. are there 'gods', 'spirits' 'powers and principalities'
and even room for Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the
Father ..... in reality? Sure. But you can't capture
the Divine in a book... can't be done.

KPB

i believe society is in the advanced stages of terminal decline, which is being subconsciously (and globally) felt by a great many people. a negative vibe.

Spookybelle
reply to post by Luuke123

 

Yes every generation faces their own unique problems and ours is no different.

This time around though, we have our environment being rapidly destroyed on a global scale. I think that makes it a lot different than previous generations.

Tucket

Spookybelle
reply to post by Luuke123

 

Yes every generation faces their own unique problems and ours is no different.

This time around though, we have our environment being rapidly destroyed on a global scale. I think that makes it a lot different than previous generations.

As compared to WW1, WW2 and any other war for conquest?