Hitler and the Conquest of Britain, Ireland and America

reply to post by spartacus699


Hitler handicapped his scientists by driving all the Jewish ones away. Including Albert Einstein. It has also been argued that the main German nuclear scientist, Heisenberg, deliberately miscalculated how much Uranium was required to create a viable device.

Very interesting thread, I often toyed with the idea "WHAT IF???"

Today, there is no question that we see Hitler and the NAZI regime as "the bad guys", there is no doubt about that. Hitler is like the personification of evil.

The US are the "good guys"...and Europe was "liberated" and so forth.

The mind-warping "game" here is actually to think what would have happened IF Hitler would have won, say he'd conquered Europe.

How would we REMEMBER the NAZIs or Hitler?

We (and this not only includes Germany but POSSIBLY also the US etc.) would *probably* remember Hitler as the one who "saved Europe" and would POSSIBLY praise him, named the streets in Berlin after him and today celebrate Hitler as a "Hero" and possibly "Uniter of Europe" and this would be in our history books as "truth".

There is this saying "History is written by the victors" and I think this is very true. "HISTORY" is not "real" in a sense, it is HOW we look back at events which happened and how we interpret them. In one "potential reality" the very same events would be remembered as good and beneficial...and in another potential reality THE VERY SAME EVENTS would be looked on and remembered as evil or bad.

Because what is "evil and bad" is determined by our culture, it is not fixed.

The dictator or murderer for one is the hero or savior for someone else. For the Taliban Bin Laden == Hero, just as one example.

And THIS, the fact that history is so "bendable" and can be interpreted in different ways is actually the most fascinating thing when doing such mind-games like "what happened if Hitler had won the war"...etc

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed


Given how heavy-handed and bloodstained the German occupation was, I doubt that Hitler would have been remembered with any affection.

TheToastmanCometh
reply to post by mirageman

 

Sorry, mate, but Philip K. Dick beat you:

Man in the High Castle

He certainly did but was also beaten to it by If Hitler Comes and Life magazine (which formed part of the opening post from 1942). Both precede Dick's work by 2 decades. SS GB came out in the 1970s, Fatherland in the 1990s.....there's many more. Hitler winning the war is not a particularly new or original idea for a story. Hence why the thread is firmly "tongue in cheek".

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

 

Given how heavy-handed and bloodstained the German occupation was, I doubt that Hitler would have been remembered with any affection.

Bloodstained is also the occupation of Iraq, Afghanistan etc.
However, we see it as "ok" once we think/assume that the ones we are fighting are the enemies....rather even, may turn the violence and blood-shedding into something "good".

All what's needed to turn the bloodshedding into an entirely different remembered event is that people BELIEVE that those who were killed were the bad guys and that the killing was "justified" or "necessary".

Hint: Was Europe/Germany "liberated" or was it "occupied" when the allies landed? Did we want to occupy Vietnam or LIBERATE it? Are we occupying Afghanistan/Iraq etc. or liberating it? Are we randomly causing bloodshedding or are we just doing what is necessary for "the greater good"? See how it's all a matter of viewpoint.

NoRulesAllowed


Bloodstained is also the occupation of Iraq, Afghanistan etc.
However, we see it as "ok" once we think/assume that the ones we are fighting are the enemies....rather even, may turn the violence and blood-shedding into something "good".

All what's needed to turn the bloodshedding into an entirely different remembered event is that people BELIEVE that those who were killed were the bad guys and that the killing was "justified" or "necessary".

Hint: Was Europe/Germany "liberated" or was it "occupied" when the allies landed? Did we want to occupy Vietnam or LIBERATE it? Are we occupying Afghanistan/Iraq etc. or liberating it? Are we randomly causing bloodshedding or are we just doing what is necessary for "the greater good"? See how it's all a matter of viewpoint.

Europe was liberated in 1944-45. Western Europe anyway. When secret policemen are no longer around to arrest you for the 'crime' of being Jewish, or Socialist, or Communist, or even just someone who believes in democracy, then that's liberation.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed


I can see what you are trying to say and in some sense you are right. As long as you can paint yourself as the "good" guys" you can change history . There is a book called "After the Reich" which deals with some of the atrocities dealt upon the German population in the chaos that surrounded the end days of the war. Something that tends to be overlooked in history books.

But in this case, had he won, then I don't think Hitler would ever be viewed as the man who saved Europe. The conquered populations would never see him as anything but a tyrant when his main force for uniting Europe was based on brutality and intimidation. It would be a Europe similar to the old Soviet Bloc ruled with an iron fist. Even the ordinary German people would not be blind to the propaganda machine and atmosphere of fear that would perpetuate across the continent.

Just read about this

Did Hitler flee bunker with Eva to Argentina, have two daughters and live to 73? The bizarre theory that's landed two British authors in a bitter war Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

reply to post by scotsdavy1


Yes, there's a book about it all called "Grey Wolf"

The Daily Mail are picking it all up a bit late though the book has been out for over a year. Not too sure how solid the case for Hitler's escape really is though. There are a lot of "grey area" documents quoted, such as this Lewiston Daily Sun; July 18 1945 news cutting.



EDIT: One thing I would add is that the Daily Mail says

After the war, the historian and MI6 officer Hugh Trevor-Roper was commissioned to investigate Hitler’s death. He spoke to many of those who were present in the bunker during those last fateful days. They all said the same thing: Hitler had killed himself, and his body and that of Eva Braun were cremated with petrol. If Hitler had hotfooted it to the Southern Hemisphere, then all these people would have had to have been lying - and to have kept it secret until their dying days. It is simply impossible to believe that so many people could keep such a grand scale deception so quiet.

Roper is the guy who also authenticated the "Hitler Diaries" back in 1983 which were actually forgeries. That doesn't mean he was wrong twice of course but it does leave room for doubt.

scotsdavy1
Just read about this

Did Hitler flee bunker with Eva to Argentina, have two daughters and live to 73? The bizarre theory that's landed two British authors in a bitter war Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

Yuck, the Daily Fail. No thanks.

reply to post by mirageman


strange that the skull the russians have of supposidly of hitler was dna tested and it turned out to be a womans skull and not from a man. i think there is morer to it than what history tells us.

reply to post by scotsdavy1


Maybe Hitler was more feminine than we thought and that famous song over estimated how many balls he had left to play with

Probably means the moustache was a fake as well if that theory is true.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Daily Fail indeed. Even if it was the only newspaper available I'd double check the football results on teletext to make sure they were actually correct.

WW2 is not over, and there is a lot of info here on ATS and many other places as to why. If you look at the current economic crisis in the EU you will see direct links back to fiscal policies made during that time and immediately after.

The Nazi party did not surrender. The German military did.

Roswell coincides neatly with a year after operation Highjump.

Operation Highjump points the way to a hidden German threat.

Even if none of this is verifiable, the western military industrial complex has been

irrefutably linked to the Nazi war effort, even forcing Washington to institute an

"anti-trade act with the enemy" around 1943. That reality is worrying enough, to this day.

reply to post by mirageman


Grey Wolf is an excellent book, agreed, and a lot of good journalistic effort went into it clearly.
ATS is a conspiracy theory site, and we must admit there is every reason for the victorious allies to hush any story that Hitler would be alive. A great many U-boats of all types made many southern hemisphere trips, many of which were not well documented as to where they went and why exactly to this day. This is a very interesting side story (u-boat mission to the Pantagonia region).

Hey,if the R.A.F.failed in their defense over the channel I would have expected Germany to occupy England.As we know England was the staging area from which the allies were to begin the retaking of Europe.Without which I really wonder if we could have defeated Hitler at that point.Also what if the Germans had developed the A-bomb first??

Amazing read, thank you! Nearly spit my coffee out at President Hasselhoff!!

I think we have ended up a society not much unlike what it would have been like had they succeeded; "license and registration please..thank you, move along now." It was just accomplished much more subtly and over a longer period of time.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed


Although entertaining, this scenario feeds into the delusion that evil was a monopoly of the Germans. They practiced it, as did the Soviet Union, our "brave ally," and as did the forces of the United Nations.
Make no mistake, there's no moral equivalency here, no possible excuse for the horrors perpetrated by the Axis. But the notion that "our side" was all good and theirs all evil is not just wrong but calculated to lead to further evil.
Why imagine a Nazi atomic bomb being dropped on innocent civilians, when we must confront the reality of two American atomic bombs exterminating tens of thousands of mostly old men, women and children in Japan?
Why fantasize about a hypothetical German invasion of Ireland, when Churchill was chafing at the bit to do so several times during the war, demanding that the Irish give him access to ports or else?
As for arbitrary arrests, look to the French record of arresting and summarily punishing (with execution or national degradation) tens of thousands of supposed collaborators in a frenzied witch hunt after the war.
And as for freedoms, the end of the war gave the allies a chance to show Europe the benefit of free speech and association, but lead instead to outlawing Germany's most popular party, making it illegal to display certain symbols, or to sign certain songs in public, or to express certain ideas. Here in the good old USA, communists were persecuted, "radicals" spied upon and their groups disrupted, all in the name of self-protection.
And please, daring to mention this doesn't make anyone a Nazi sympathizer. "Good reasons" can be advanced for all of these horrors, and I'm sure they will be minimized as either necessary or misguided. But the truth is still there. Evil isn't "out there;" it's in our own souls.

Brilliant thread. Really. I love what you did with the parallels to what actually happened in history. I also particularly like how you tied in at the end with the spying and control and discontent. Irony at its finest. Great job!

Great read! All you need is a few key characters and a general plot-line and you have yourself a wonderful Novel or Mini-Series. Or has that not already been done? Was there not a movie With Rutger Hauer that went well beyond the 1945? Any way, I enjoyed it very much. Also, thank you for all of the interesting references.