Angels: Physical or Immaterial Messengers of God

Whilst reading one of our most treasured members threads, FlyersFan... a thought occurred to me...

There is much controversy about Jesus and whether or not he actually resurrected... I personally am on the fence on this particular subject... I find that his death and resurrection is not as important as his life, and how he lived it. So whether or not he actually resurrected matters very little to me...

Lets keep in mind here that I am not a Christian

Lets say he did resurrect though just for the sake of discussion...

There is a passage in Matthew 22 where Jesus is speaking with the Sadducees... in which he says:

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

When one resurrects they are like angels In heaven... This means they are not physical beings they are immaterial ethereal beings with no physical substance...

Philo of Alexandria identifies the angel with the Logos as far as the angel is the immaterial voice of God.

By the late 4th century, the Church Fathers agreed that there were different categories of angels, with appropriate missions and activities assigned to them. There was, however, some disagreement regarding the nature of angels. Some argued that Angels had physical bodies,[26] while some maintained that they were entirely spiritual. Some theologians had proposed that angels were not divine but on the level of immaterial beings subordinate to the Trinity. The resolution of this Trinitarian dispute included the development of doctrine about angels.

en.wikipedia.org...

So the debate is surely still unresolved, but I would personally say the majority would agree, angels are immaterial beings... spirits of God or Satan... depending of course on your belief or religion.

This raises some serious questions about the resurrection of Jesus though...

IF he resurrected... and angels are immaterial... Why did Jesus hunger and thirst after his "resurrection"?

How did Thomas poke his finger into his side, if he had no physical substance?

I believe this argument gives a little weight to Jesus' survival on the cross... He would need a physical body to hunger, or thirst... or for Thomas to poke him in his side.

So what is your opinion on the matter?

Are do angels have a physical presence or are they immaterial?

Lets keep this discussion civil please...

Thank you for reading and considering my thoughts on the matter

reply to post by Akragon


Definition of Angel = opposite version of your government

I gave a look at the link for FlyersFan thread, and I noticed something interesting. Saint Thomas Aquinas said that each Angel being unique, they are each one a race by themselves.

Though he is saying they are pure energy, he points to them being "races" nonetheless.

Now, take energy. Is it spiritual or material?

If you had the "chance" to receive an electrical discharge, you will notice that despite its "spiritual" appearance, despite it's extreme fluidity, it hits you like a pile of rock.

Heat can burn you to a crisp. It doesn't seem to touch you, but it does.

Since the spirit, or soul, is active, it has to have energy or be made of energy. Thus, I would say that despite being labeled "pure energy", and even recognizing them to be "pure spiritual energy", it is still a material body, but sublimated to its higher possible form.

To me, spirituality has always meant subtle materiality.

reply to post by NowanKenubi


Thanks for your thoughts on the matter...

Technically speaking electricity and fire are both "particles" though, electricity would be electrons, or small charged particles and fire needs a substance and high temperature to burn...

Im not really sure if "Spirit" has any physical form... but this is why I wrote this thread... To explore some of our members ideas on this issue...

Its said "God" is a spirit, and is outside of time and space, which would subsequently mean he also has a physical form...

Interesting line of thinking though... I've never considered spirit to be part of the physical myself...

But what do I know...

Thanks again for your reply

reply to post by Akragon


Well, thanks. You had an interesting question.

I came too that conclusion about spirit because in the end, if it can influence the material world; it means their is some form of "touching" happening, be it a breath or a hand.

And on the grand scale of things, I figured it meant everything, other dimensions or what ever there may be outside of our realm, would be only a material world of another kind.

The rest is only differentiation for our convenience. lol

Click my name and read my Jesus Unicorn symbolism thread if you want to know some occult info about this.

Halfway in the thread I get way into that.

Also after that thread check out my Neptune thread.

I discuss things like why Angels playing a Harp would be a Harpy, or why the Harpoon is a harpy tune. Among many other related oddities.

I recall that Angels were physically wrestled with, physically lusted after, and they ate food. The "immaterial" assertion doesn't follow.

DIFFERENT than humans certainly, but...

reply to post by Akragon


The Bible is clear on the subject of angels in numerous places (if you have a KJV. It can get confusing if you are reading one of the many corrupt Vatican/Alexandrian "translations" NIV, ESV, etc)... they are spiritual beings created by God with the purpose of serving him. We see in Genesis 1:8 where God creates Heaven (capital H denotes the third heaven where God and angels live, lower case h denotes the first or second heavens which are the sky/atmosphere and space) God created everything "in the beginning", including Heaven and angels. We see in Psalms 8 where God made man "a little lower than the angels". The verse you mention from Matthew is THE verse that disproves the theory that the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 were fallen angels, because as we see in Matthew, angels do not marry, and yet in Genesis 6 the sons of God marry the daughters of man. Actually, the sons of God are the descendants of Seth... they were faithful believers in God. The daughters of men were the descendants of Cain... they were not faithful believers in God. You say that you are more interested in the life and actions/words of Jesus, and not his death and resurrection, but his death and resurrection is the sole purpose for him being on Earth. Belief and faith in his life, death, and resurrection is what saves you from eternity in hell. Salvation is through faith by grace, and nothing else. Salvation is the free gift from God, and all that is required is that one believes on Jesus Christ, who was God manifest in the flesh.

The GUT
I recall that Angels were physically wrestled with, physically lusted after, and they ate food. The "immaterial" assertion doesn't follow.

DIFFERENT than humans certainly, but...

edit on 24-10-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Recall from where?
I am curious to read this.

reply to post by Akragon

This is mainly addressing the secondary question you got into- the nature of the resurrection- rather than the title question.
Because when he says "like the angels", he does not necessarily mean "in every possible respect"; but mainly in respect of not marrying.
(Obama is like George Washington in one respect, but not in every respect).
Therefore we can't safely use the resurrection body as a guide to what angels are like.

The best guide to New Testament understanding of the resurrection is 1 Corinthians ch15.
Paul tells us that our bodies will be different from our current bodies, just as the plant that grows is different from the seed which was planted in the ground (a metaphor which implies an element of continuity).

And he calls the new body "Spiritual".
However this word "spiritual" [PNEUMATIKOS] is not here contrasted with "fleshly" [SARKIKOS].
The contrast is with the old PSYCHIKOS body- that is, the body governed by the PYSCHE, the soul.
So the contrast is not really about two different materials.
It is about the transfer of control from the PSYCHE to the spirit.

You mention eating and the invitation to touch.
They do show that his body is at least physical enough to interact with physical things.
So different- but not absolutely different.

All this will be expounded in the thread on the resurrection which will be the climax of my series on 1 Corinthians (q.v.).

reply to post by OptimusSubprime


Im not going to get ino the dogmatic beliefs of your church... And i don't buy the silly fear tactics about "hell" that come from your religion. Hell is incompatible with a loving merciful God... So if your God is based around the OT... Your God is NOT my God... So lets stick to the subject and OUT the preaching.... K?

Yes...an angel is a messenger of/from God.That covers a very wide spectrum.If you mean the spectrum of human form beings then most folks will be very disappointed to know angels are God taking the form of what "appears" to be human and not some ethereal race of beings.

Demons are not evil"fallen angels that rebelled with the archangel "lucifer". There is no head king demon lucifer who became satan at the fall and "rules" the earth .There is no where in the scriptures that says these things at all.It is the extrapolation of the religious carnal mind to believe fantasy foolishness.

God is not something immaterial existing in the space/time continuum. That is exactly what God isn't ..limited.Why did angels have what appears to be physical bodies and not some flimsy vaporous material....because God is just the opposite ...solid.Everything in the material universe is made of 99.999999% empty space.Material(matter) is not solid at all.God is the solid one.

When Yahoshua walked through a "solid" door where the disciples were it wasn't because he was a "vapor" spirit being.It is the material realm that is vapor.Yahoshua is solid.He didn't hunger in the sense of "having" to eat he did it to show he wasn't a "spirit apparition just as millions still believe...or the even more ridiculous fantasy that he never died and survived the crucifixion..that's insanity.

When the scriptures speaks of angels"beings" they are called angels of the Lord(Elohim)...they are God.Mankind has no conception who or what God is.It is all fantasy and religion.Man has made God in their own image so much they believe they can become God(self existent having a free will..!!)

Man will NEVER become God..that is the biggest crazy fantasy. That somehow by learning to be loving and raising consciousness to the great spiritual teachers .....which Yahoshua is thrown in with..... mankind will rise above (as above so below) to be as God...blah blah blah....pure egomaniacal fantasy.

God is God .Nothing else is nor ever will be God.The only thing that changes is mans perception of God through growth (salvation....deliverance from death).That is what Yahoshua called entering the Kingdom of God...there is no "heaven" somewhere out there... God will live in and through "the heavens" which is ....all of mankind!! That is being a son(adopted) of God.

God doesn't need us at all.God is giving all of existence life not the other way around.Nothing nor no one contributes at all to causing life..its all receive....and that's what the majority of mankind hates..THEY want to be their OWN man..their OWN God...doing THEIR own will....falsely believing that is what freedom is.

Mankind is making God in their puny 99.9999999% empty space image.Warts and all..and damn proud of it.There will come a day(age) when all(in their own order) will begin to perceive God as God is.It will be impossible as long as their perception of God stays as it is...the person in the mirror.

God presents himself to so few because it wouldn't matter.They wouldn't know God if he turned into paisley flying pig and flew to the moon and back in front of their eyes. ..and better yet why would God do that at all.It would prove nothing. This is Gods existence.God can do whatever God wants.

God is "in" everything in one shape or form or other. but none of those "things or people are God unless they are the angel of the Lord.Those are not human nor are they "a race of spiritual created beings" that did all sorts of ridiculous dungeons and dragons stuff. They are God and if you saw one you are most likely dead or not blabbing nonsense about it.

This is the most ignorant age of all of mankind because they believe they "know" so much about God yet they know nothing of God.They believe all the superstition was ages ago when the real ignorance is now.With 30,000 sects of Christianity ALL thinking they know the REAL God because they believe their doctrinal ducks are in a row.An they have the gall to call themselves CHRISTians.The vast majority don't even know what christ means.Anyone that sincerely believes that have anything to do with the christ (the anointing of God) that believes a religion is in seriously deep delusion. I am not condemning anyone they are just in ignorance(and denial).

The only way to shed this mortal coil of ignorance is death..the death of the religious man that is in everyone and physical death is the door the majority have to go through to die again(2nd death).Then the single eye will be clear and none of this phony baloney religious nonsense will be real.The vapor walls of empty space will disappear and the Kingdom of God will appear.
That is the "real" world of solid things....its an infinite process of growth in the Kingdom of God and mankind is still in the womb of the earth a embryo ..not even a fetus yet.

The fact is embryos don't believe they are embryos. They think they are all grown up and fully alive(in other words..completely unaware of reality).The reality is mankind is in a dream world dreaming of life but never fully experience it because they haven't been born yet.Everyone will some day (age).Then the messengers of God will not be needed because they will see who God is face to face.(at least as much that is revealed)...sweet dreams.

Why god needs messengers anyway?

So the debate is surely still unresolved, but I would personally say the majority would agree, angels are immaterial beings... spirits of God or Satan... depending of course on your belief or religion.

reply to post by Akragon


Your invitation to respond is too alluring to pass up.

I am a christian and I do believe that Jesus was resurrected.

Judging from your references, it seems that your plan is to look at the worldly scholarship as a guide to reach a consensus.

This plan is not one that I would follow. It will only lead to a dead end.

Jesus said that the world hated him and that he was “not of this world”. He was more than merely opposed to worldly standards and values. The world is corrupt beyond reform. A New World is His promise.

Why is it that those opposed to the NWO have not noticed that that makes them bedfellows with Jesus? Those who are looking for a way to do away with the lies and greed of the NWO have not noticed that Jesus has the remedy.

The GUT
I recall that Angels were physically wrestled with, physically lusted after, and they ate food. The "immaterial" assertion doesn't follow.

Wrestled with ... was that a dream or real?

Physically lusted after ... the 'angels' lusted after humans in ancient (unreliable) folklore. But being totally etherial, they wouldn't be able to 'lust' or have sex with humans. And they certainly wouldn't be able to cross species procreate. So the stories are just folklore ... or uneducated ancient humans confusing aliens with angels ... or they are correct and all the theologians are wrong.

Ate Food .... yep. So that lends the question, were the 'angels' that Abraham ate with really angels or were they alien in nature. And did that even happen. We don't know if Abraham even really existed or if his story is pure folklore ... or something in between. The stories of Abraham supposedly happened in 2000 bc but they weren't written down until 500 bc. PLenty of time for embellishments and changes to the story.

Christian theologians for 2000 years have agreed that angels are 'PURE SPIRIT'. Something that is pure spirit can't be organic. It can APPEAR organic, but it can't change in essence. Of course, those 2000 years of Christian theologians could be wrong. But that's what they have come up with. The information about being 'pure spirit' is at the link provided in the opening post.

Akragon
Its said "God" is a spirit, and is outside of time and space, which would subsequently mean he also has a physical form...

I would think that being outside of time and space would mean that there was nothing physical
but instead was all energy or spirit. That's how I see it. And I'm pretty sure that's how all the
Christian theologians see it.

Akragon
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

When one resurrects they are like angels In heaven... This means they are not physical beings they are immaterial ethereal beings with no physical substance... IF he resurrected... and angels are immaterial... Why did Jesus hunger and thirst after his "resurrection"?How did Thomas poke his finger into his side, if he had no physical substance?

Awesome things to think about.
Here's some more ....

- The gospel accounts which quote the eyewitness of Jesus life and death and resurrection, say that he absolutely died, and rather quickly. The Romans wanted him DEAD. They made sure he was dead. Being death dealers, they knew when a person was dead and wasn't.

- Think about the beating, whipping, crucifixion, and a big ol' Roman spear thrust into his lungs/heart. People nowadays with modern medicine couldn't survive that let alone someone back then without medical care and being tossed in a cave for days.

- Did Jesus really hunger and thirst, or did He just appear to eat and drink with them so they would relax and feel more comfortable with Him? When I read that passage I see someone using psychological strategies to calm the people being spoken to.

- I also see that he probably appeared under the organic physical guise to confirm to those people that He has died and risen just as their belief requires. If Jesus had appeared in ghost form, the people would have been too afraid to listen to him. Their culture was afraid of ghosts. They expected to see someone in physical form after resurrection. So he arrived as they expected. Calming. (reminds me of Near Death Experiences .. people see what they expect .. it's like a calming thing that the universe or God does for them to help with the situation)

- MOST IMPORTANT - Don't forget, Jesus who appeared to eat and drink also walked through walls and entered locked rooms through locked doors and traveled great distances at great speed and appeared and disappeared out of no where. Those are the big clues. That proves he isn't in a normal human organic body. This is the big stumbling block for those who say that Jesus survived the crucifixion. If he did .... then these other things wouldn't be happening. He's be one hurt'n fella after surviving the massive beating, whipping, crucifixion and spear thrust into the lungs/heart. But instead .. he's walking through walls and through locked doors and appearing out of nowhere and disappearing into nothing and traveling great distances at great speed ..... Those are things that a crucifixion survivor simply couldn't do.

Jesus confirmed the resurrection of the body to the Jews. But that resurrected body isn't like the organic body that we all live in now. It changes .... has the abilities of the etherial spiritual body. He Himself said that there were many truths that he had to tell them, but they weren't ready to hear it yet. So we don't know all there is on this. (wish we did!)

FlyersFan

- MOST IMPORTANT - Don't forget, Jesus who appeared to eat and drink also walked through walls and entered locked rooms through locked doors .

Did he, though?
Everybody describes the resurrection appearances in terms of "walking through walls", but the gospel account does not say so.
The gospel account just says "he came and stood amongst them".
I think we ought to visualise these appearances in terms of "materialising", as when somebody is "beamed down" in Star Trek, or as when the Tardis makes a landing.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I don't know, DISRAELI, it sounds to me (and the Christian theologians) that Jesus walked through a locked door and appeared in a locked room. The scripture takes pains to make note that the door was locked and then Jesus was suddenly there. It is significant enough for them to make note of it. A fully human organic body can't do this. A resurrected body 'like the angels' could ...

John 20:19-23

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I agree with "appearing inside locked room" and agree that this is not something a pre-resurrection human body would be able to do, which is the essential point.
My question is how this presented itself to the witnesses.
They don't actually say "appeared coming through the wall", and it seems to me that the witness testimony is more like "One moment it was just us, then he suddenly appeared from nowhere".
Another related question is "where was he between resurrection appearances?", which is another reason why I like the "beamed down" analogy.