One man, One 26,000lb stone, one 2 pound hammer.

Vasa Croe
reply to post by pauljs75

 

Very well said. And yes...the Vitruvius 10 Books on Architecture show just what had been passed down over the years and what you have stated is in the 10th book, chapter 3.

Blows my mind that we have to come up with Aliens did it or someone figured out how to levitate them or they had super advanced tech.

PDF of Vitruvius' books chapter 2 starts on page 285

Chapter 1 Machines and implements
Chapter 2 Hoisting machines
Chapter 3 The elements of motion
Chapter 4 Engines for raising water
Chapter 5 Water wheels and water mills
etc

Good round up for anyone sitting around thinking "well I couldnt do it in 2013 therefore it must be
aliens".

These structures were not the work of enthusiastic amateurs but were the pinnacles of human ingenuity of the time, undertaken and probably led by the top Architechts/Builders on the planet using their secret "craft" knowledge as eluded to by other posters.

Although the craft techniques probably didnt evolve in isolation, there must have been a "eureka" type moment where one ancient stone mason observed the effects of expansion on Stone (maybe via ice) and these technique were born.

Unfortunately these moments are few and far between in humans but I believe if you are lazy enough; all shortcuts will eventually be revealed.

reply to post by Jukiodone


People seem to forget that for hundreds of thousands of years man made stone tools, he was probably an expert on the selection and characteristics of stone. The first use of the stone by the Egyptians reflected their practice and knowledge of working with wood, ie they made columns that looked like tree trunks. In AE the land didn't have a lot of trees, they knew rocks = working rocks.

Gobekli Tepe showed that man was working stone well before we orginally thought.

Oh for Eureka moment, when the AE architect whose name I have forgotten at the moment, a famous guy, decided to put on mastaba on top another.....

Simply posting a video of someone accomplishing the "cutting" of one stone really doesn't prove anything about pyramid building....at all. You're basically using the monkey/typewriter analogy...you know...if you put enough monkeys in front of typewriters, they could reproduce the works of Shakespeare simply by chance.

It takes a lot more than some chisels and granite to build the Khufu pyramid. Here are just a few examples of why I prefer the alien thoery over human ingenuity:

In the 3rd dynasty, the Egyptians accomplished nothing in the way of mathematics or engineering of note. No carving huge temples into bedrock. No large idols, and no pyramids that can be dated to that dynasty.
Then, in the fourth dynasty, the Egyptians suddenly have the ability to build the Khufu pyramid. Froth with mathematics employed throughout, and 2.5 million blocks weighing anywhere from 2 tonnes to 50 tonnes. They accomplished this in twenty odd years. That's setting 342 blocks per day at a rate of one block every two minutes 365 days a year. That's assuming that nothing like war, weather, or some other crisis didn't interfere.

THEN, in the fifth dynasty, everything got WORSE. The pyramids they built all crumbled or lay half finished. No more largr idols carved from single pieces of stone, no employed mathematics in building. They seemingly regressed 500 years! Humans don't do that. Where did all that "ingenuity" go?? Did they get lazy? Did they just forget math and engineering? No...they couldn't do it because the TRUE builders were gone. The Egyptians tried to replicate the pyramids and failed at every attempt. If they built Khufu, every pyramid afterwards woulda been BETTER, not worse.

The guy in the video isn't using copper like Egyptians. In fact, copper cannot cut granite or limestone as both rate as a harder material than copper. Some say that the copper tools may have been diamond tipped...like saws and chisels. While that's possible, its unlikely considering the sheer volume of rare diamonds that would be needed to cut 2.5 million blocks.

The Kings chamber is made of Rosestone Granite. The closest place that's available is in a quarry over 900km away. No amount of elephants or animals could have dragged them to Giza. That alone would have taken decades. They couldn't have shipped them down the Nile either as their boats couldn't hold 50 ton blocks.

Lastly, Herodotus visited the pyramids in 500 BC. He wrote extensively about them. He says that the casing that covered the pyramid was full of strange pictures and symbols unknown to him. They covered the whole pyramid. They were not hieroglyphs.
Arab historian Abd Latif visited Khufu and recorded that the inscriptions on the casing "would have filled 10,000 pages of written word.
Sadly, the big earthquake in Giza displaced the casing stone and we'll never know what those inscriptions were.

While I could write about inconsistencies of the Giza pyramids, and all the engineering feats associated with it, I feel the above points go a long way to proving human ingenuity had nothing to do with Giza. The mere fact that Egypts skill declined sharply after Khufu should be proof enough that bigger powers were at work. We build better with time, not worse. I can't think of any other instance where humanity regressed after a huge accomplishment.


Claiming that because some guy somewhere is able to chisel a large rock, and then alluding that it proves the pyramids were built by mere human ingenuity is the same as ME. carving one stone and claiming I could then replicate Khufu.

The pyramids are way more than just stones. Id be interested in a video seeing how anyone could lift the 50 ton blocks of granite ceiling stones used in the kings chamber in a space where only six men could stand.

imasheep

It takes a lot more than some chisels and granite to build the Khufu pyramid. Here are just a few examples of why I prefer the alien thoery over human ingenuity:

In the 3rd dynasty, the Egyptians accomplished nothing in the way of mathematics or engineering of note. No carving huge temples into bedrock. No large idols, and no pyramids that can be dated to that dynasty.

Not correct you may wish to read about the Djoser pyramid and the three others they built.

Then, in the fourth dynasty, the Egyptians suddenly have the ability to build the Khufu pyramid. Froth with mathematics employed throughout, and 2.5 million blocks weighing anywhere from 2 tonnes to 50 tonnes. They accomplished this in twenty odd years. That's setting 342 blocks per day at a rate of one block every two minutes 365 days a year. That's assuming that nothing like war, weather, or some other crisis didn't interfere.

Did you forget the progression of thee pyramids they made before they got to Khufu?

THEN, in the fifth dynasty, everything got WORSE. The pyramids they built all crumbled or lay half finished. No more largr idols carved from single pieces of stone, no employed mathematics in building. They seemingly regressed 500 years! Humans don't do that. Where did all that "ingenuity" go?? Did they get lazy? Did they just forget math and engineering? No...they couldn't do it because the TRUE builders were gone. The Egyptians tried to replicate the pyramids and failed at every attempt. If they built Khufu, every pyramid afterwards woulda been BETTER, not worse.

No they started building cheaper and easier to make pyramids - the Giza ones probably 'bankrupted' them. Sure they used mathematics. After Europeans built Saint Peters were all following Cathedrals bigger and better than it?

The guy in the video isn't using copper like Egyptians. In fact, copper cannot cut granite or limestone as both rate as a harder material than copper. Some say that the copper tools may have been diamond tipped...like saws and chisels. While that's possible, its unlikely considering the sheer volume of rare diamonds that would be needed to cut 2.5 million blocks.

Copper can cut limestone, I've seen and done it myself, granite was bashed out using harder stone. You may wish to recalculated the 2.5 million blocks - I hold it was around 900,000, ie they used filler and the AE incorporated part of the 'living rock' of the plateau into the structure.

The Kings chamber is made of Rosestone Granite. The closest place that's available is in a quarry over 900km away. No amount of elephants or animals could have dragged them to Giza. That alone would have taken decades. They couldn't have shipped them down the Nile either as their boats couldn't hold 50 ton blocks.

I suggest you take a look at AE art which shows them moving very heavy stones by boat

Lastly, Herodotus visited the pyramids in 500 BC. He wrote extensively about them. He says that the casing that covered the pyramid was full of strange pictures and symbols unknown to him. They covered the whole pyramid. They were not hieroglyphs.

Oh he did did he? Please link to that

While I could write about inconsistencies of the Giza pyramids, and all the engineering feats associated with it, I feel the above points go a long way to proving human ingenuity had nothing to do with Giza. The mere fact that Egypts skill declined sharply after Khufu should be proof enough that bigger powers were at work. We build better with time, not worse. I can't think of any other instance where humanity regressed after a huge accomplishment.

Except for human handiwork showing up everywhere in the pyramid, the quarries and the worker village....and no sign of these other folks.

The pyramids are way more than just stones. Id be interested in a video seeing how anyone could lift the 50 ton blocks of granite ceiling stones used in the kings chamber in a space where only six men could stand.

They were probably not raised but lowered - think ramps

reply to post by Hanslune


LOL...first, how can you even make the comparison between the Djoser STEP pyramid and Khufu??? They are in no way the same....from the way smaller blocks to sheer size. That's ridiculous.
You also cannot simply state that some cathedral somewhere proves that people either regress or simply choose not to build the same grand structures silly. These pyramids were built to GODS...ie: Pharoes. No expense was spared and how would you like to be the engineer in charge and having to tell GOD you can't accomplish the same feat others did hundreds of years before?

Herodetos can be google searched easily enough...its historical fact. You search, I did when I replied.

You cannot cut granite with copper. idc if what you claim to have done...physics dictates its impossible and i defy YOU to post a link saying otherwise.

I have to work now, but I will continue to pick apart your reply afterward

reply to post by smithas05


this makes more sense than any other theory i have heard or even thought of myself

i like it alot

i have always said that there is some truth in all stories

never mind

Egyptian Machine Work

if your theory is right please explain these

reply to post by Hanslune


I was under the impression that the main interior chambers were excavated from the bedrock, and finished out before any blocks were placed, for the body of the pyramid.
I believe that there is either an unfinished or torn down pyramid, a few miles from giza, that is attributed to a son or grandson of khufu. I've seen photos of the prepped site with the excavated main chamber.

Here is an illustration of what has been discussed in regards to moving these large stones.

You can use fire to cause rocks to fracture with perfect flat surfaces. Ancient men did not have TV and internet. They had more patients and time that modern man would scoff at.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


And yet, while the Egyptians recorded everything in hieroglyph form down to the monotonous daily activities, we don't have even one example of pyramid building or engineering. Odd no?

Outside of that and quite honestly the most intriguing question to ask is what exactly they were built for. They were obviously not built as tombs, were inefficient for celestial observation and were by far overkill for bulk grain or food storage, so, why are they there, and for what purpose were they built?

Helious
reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

 

And yet, while the Egyptians recorded everything in hieroglyph form down to the monotonous daily activities, we don't have even one example of pyramid building or engineering. Odd no?

No they may have recorded lots of stuff but not everything. What we see are only bits and pieces of their technical skills displayed. It may also have been a superstition of theirs to not display a tomb.

Outside of that and quite honestly the most intriguing question to ask is what exactly they were built for. They were obviously not built as tombs, were inefficient for celestial observation and were by far overkill for bulk grain or food storage, so, why are they there, and for what purpose were they built?

Easy answer tombs they do refer at times in the later dynasties to the pyramids as tombs.

Question 1. for you at the end of the 5th dynasty their changed the hieroglyph for tombs from a rectangle (standing for a mastaba) to this



Why do you think they did that?

Question 2. If you read about the AE religion you find they were greatly concerned with death an preservation of the body, especially of the Pharaoh - so where are all the Pharaohs buried from the point of Djoser to Khendjer, from the 3rd to 13th dynasty?

Question 3. Why do we often find pyramids being built in previous established necropoli?

punkinworks10
reply to post by Hanslune

 

I was under the impression that the main interior chambers were excavated from the bedrock, and finished out before any blocks were placed, for the body of the pyramid.

The lower one is - I'm not sure about the Queen but the King and gallery are built (AFAIK) above the mound.

I believe that there is either an unfinished or torn down pyramid, a few miles from giza, that is attributed to a son or grandson of khufu. I've seen photos of the prepped site with the excavated main chamber.

Do you mean Djedefre at the demolished Abu Rawash?

GEmersonBiggins
reply to post by benrl

 

It's quite a leap from a crude cut of a stone (with metal/steel tools I might add) to pyramid building. That's like saying UFO's must be birds because they fly too. Very little logic here and too much of a leap for me.

NOTE: I don't recall anyone finding a single hammer or any tools at the pyramid sites.

Dolerite pounding stones have been found at Ancient Egyptian quarries.
Link

Plenty of evidence of their use in granite quarries as well.
Link2
Link3

Harte

imasheep
reply to post by Hanslune

 

LOL...first, how can you even make the comparison between the Djoser STEP pyramid and Khufu???

You stated

In the 3rd dynasty, the Egyptians accomplished nothing in the way of mathematics or engineering of note

The stepped pyramid of Djoser is one of the most important building in the history of architecture....

They are in no way the same....from the way smaller blocks to sheer size. That's ridiculous.

It was the first so of course it was simplier....

You also cannot simply state that some cathedral somewhere proves that people either regress or simply choose not to build the same grand structures silly.

I'll take your non answer as a conceding the point in my favor

These pyramids were built to GODS...ie: Pharoes. No expense was spared and how would you like to be the engineer in charge and having to tell GOD you can't accomplish the same feat others did hundreds of years before?

I'd hold out my hand and ask for the order to do it and all the resources-which the Pharaohs do not seemed to have done - Herodotus is not the most reliable writer of his time but he does record some interesting reason why the AE might have stopped building such large structures.

Herodetos can be google searched easily enough...its historical fact. You search, I did when I replied.

I see you refuse to link to said quote, your point is conceded then....I would point out I have read Herodotus and don't recall that being said and this is what I recall he noted. If you have another link and quote to further expansion of this please link to it and I will change my mind - who knows I might have forgotten it.

There are writings on the pyramid in Egyptian characters indicating how much was spent on radishes and onions and garlic for the workmen; and I am sure that, when he read me the writing, the interpreter said that sixteen hundred talents of silver had been paid.

Link to Herodotus quote

You cannot cut granite with copper. idc if what you claim to have done...physics dictates its impossible and i defy YOU to post a link saying otherwise.

I very, very carefully said limestone -and you still deliberately misread it! I forgot to mention that you can also cut granite by using sand.

Here is what I said

Copper can cut limestone, I've seen and done it myself, granite was bashed out using harder stone

Go back and re-read, slowly, what I wrote then you can come back and fix your mistake...lol

I have to work now, but I will continue to pick apart your reply afterward

Try to reply to what I wrote and not what you wished I would have said. Also if a link is needed, please reply with said link or concede the point.

imasheep
You cannot cut granite with copper. idc if what you claim to have done...physics dictates its impossible and i defy YOU to post a link saying otherwise.

For a woo, you don't watch "Ancient Aliens" much, or you would have seen Chris Dunn himself (isn't he a hero of yours? LOL) doing exactly that - sawing a hole in a granite slab with a copper tube and sand.

Will you now "defy" us to post evidence of the nose on your face?

Harte

Harte

imasheep
You cannot cut granite with copper. idc if what you claim to have done...physics dictates its impossible and i defy YOU to post a link saying otherwise.

For a woo, you don't watch "Ancient Aliens" much, or you would have seen Chris Dunn himself (isn't he a hero of yours? LOL) doing exactly that - sawing a hole in a granite slab with a copper tube and sand.

Will you now "defy" us to post evidence of the nose on your face?

Harte

There is a link I posted showing exactly that.

Not to mention that many polish and even etch letters in granite with sand....

Sounds like imasheep needs to research a bit more.

Just so you don't have to go back to find my link...

Copper with sand cutting granite

reply to post by benrl




This is a cool trick but nothing related to ancient stone building.

You still need to quarry the rock and move it. I can garentee he did not haul that peice of granit a couple miles let alone one mile. It was probably dumped there by a sand truck or some other construction vehicle.

Donno why all these coments make references to the pyramids. The blocks there are Over 16,000 tons, and are much larger than this, they are perfectly cut cubes not slanted sort of rectangles -_-

nd if you want to try to explain this method to building the great pyramids and other monoliths, Where was the stone quarried? And how was it moved there?

Trees would shear under the force of the granite because of rocks and the fact the ground assuming wouldnt be flat.

There is also no evidence of holes in the ancient pyramids. And even then. Ancients didn't have steel tools... Copper is useless against granite. All of this # is ruled out completely. Cutting the stone with modern tech.

Lets try carving granite with copper and we will have to forget about this puncturing holes into the stone method because like i mentioned the pyramids do not have these holes.



8 or more million stones quarried and hauled through the blazing hot sun? Right.
And Hercules hand punched the grand canyon into existance without dying of dehydration.
lmfao.
okay.

Nevermind the hauling theory. How would you get a block the size of a trailer out of the ground with tools?
lol. This oblisk was obviously cut, you can tell because its smooth.
Opposed to split in 2 these blocks were literally carved our of the ground like butter.

And here we are arguing over 1 dude who took a full hour to split that tiny rock.

when the pyramids were made with 8 or more million blocks of stone.
People seem to forget that that egypt is in the desert and if current archeologists think its only 3000- 4000 years old, that would mean these pyramid blocks. All 8 million peices and above.

Were hauled in the blazing sun, in a desert. But don't bother mentioning texts and what not saying* well there was water up by the pyramid* bullcrap. That was thousands of years earlier than the 3000-4000 year mark. So don't bother quoting something that contradicts your own argument.

Never underestimate the ingenuity of man, you always lose. Now, may I refer to the temples at Baalbek in Lebanon. There are blocks of stone called the Trilithon, each is estimated to weigh 800 tons. Pile up eight locomotives and move them from one place to another. This was done a minimum of three times. In the quarry identified as the source of the Trilithon are two more stones, both estimated to exceed 1000 tons. The most ridiculous explanation I know of, was the Romans built aqueducts to the quarry, and a canal to the building site. Tied pontoons to the blocks, and flooded the quarry. Floating the blocks to the site. This despite no evidence of such a network of aqueducts or a canal. The blocks are finished and precisely fitted. No mean feat, with stones that large. Further, there is evidence that the platform may have been built earlier, as the archeological findings prove occupation of the temple site to be nearly 9,000 years. The only mention in Roman times of the site concerns the building of a temple to Jupiter and temples to lesser gods on the base.
Far too often, simple explanations are accepted to cover an entire field of unexplained. The Yeti DNA recently brought out. Two samples of tissue, recovered 800 miles apart in the Himalayan Mountains. The closest DNA match is a species of Polar Bear, that went extinct 40,000 years ago. Now, I can except the idea that the mountains may be a great habitat for such a species of bear. One problem, I have never heard of or read reports of bears in the Himalaya. The distance between samples implies more than one bear. Given the eyewitness reports of Yeti, those are big bears. I wouldn't get into discussion of footprints, etc.
Science is suppose to explain the unexplainable, not sweep those that defy simple explanation under the rug with de-bunked eyewitness reports, misunderstandings, perception difficulty, an similar "explanations." [edit by]edit on 24-10-2013 by Brandyjack because: addition and correction[/edit by]