Egyptian relief paintings anomaly

I have mentioned this on two other threads and have had not one response.
Here is a typical Egyptian relief :



There are thousands of these readily available on the web on innumerable sites. Not all (but over half I would say) are very, very meticulous and depict clothing and jewelry in explicit detail BUT what baffles me is why are many of the people depicted in these reliefs shown with two right hands and/or a right hand on a left hand and sometimes vice-versa. The above example is a beautiful depiction in great detail so I find it hard to come to terms that the artist would spoil such artistic work with such an anomaly (on this occasion a left hand on a right arm on the left figure). It simply doesn't make sense and is so out of context to the rest of the work that I am leaning to a theory that it was done on purpose. But why?
Has anyone any ideas.

Here is another:

reply to post by OzTiger


now i can't stop looking at the hands.

good eye in catching that.

reply to post by OzTiger


My guess is male/female oriented, meaning the person was more logical oriented than creative oriented or the opposite. Spiritually the combination between logic and creative are sought after to produce higher understanding even if the physical body is male or female.

The ancient Egypt seem to have known chakra systems.

Starting around 4:00 you get one explanation.



Some other sources seem to point at a superstition about images, and importance attached to certain body parts over others in that it was more important to show ALL the fingers as opposed to differentiating between left and right. Not showing all the fingers would be akin to maiming your god-king.

Edit: There's also the additional argument pertaining to symmetry and geometry, both of which the Egyptians seemed to hold in high regard.
Notice all the fingers are the same length, and in their full body and bust 3D sculptures, the faces especially are exacting mirror images of symmetry both left and right side of the face precisely identical, which isn't seen in the profile view reliefs.

I have read it as a sign that person depicted is in a purely receiving or purely giving position. This pharaoh receives life and power from the two gods beside him, so he is purely receiving and shown with only left hands.

Egypt is not the only culture that depicts odd hands...

In Mesopotamia the Babylonian god Marduk had two left hands... South America in Cerro Sechi and in the Tiahuanaco, Calasasaya complex there are figures with two left hands, aside from the pyramid constructions and coc aine mummies these reliefs also point to contact between these cultures at some point. The little bucket often found in hands gets passed around in cultures quite a bit as well.

reply to post by OzTiger


Perhaps it is an optical illusion. Try imagining a palm instead of the back of a hand. The thumb is then on the correct side.

It's easier to see on the second picture. Stand in front of a mirror and mimic the figure. Turn your right hand outward or inward until your thumb is on facing away from the body. If you were to look at a silhouette of this, your thumb would appear on the wrong side. The second picture seems to even show the elbow as being pointed away from the body which would support this theory suggesting the hand is turned inward.

This is not necessarily my belief, but it is an explanation.

reply to post by OzTiger


I think it may have something to do with egyptian magic, the preists and pharoes were part of the left hand path of the adepts. Look up temple of set.

Interesting. As a "southpaw" myself, I've often wondered the same thing regarding these depictions. I've heard that during the 50s and 60s, using the left hand to write was punishable in schools.

Some even associated it with doing the "work of the devil", whatever the heck THAT means.

It symbolizes giving and taking. The right hand takes, and the left hand gives.

That's the theory, anyhow.

Good eye, it is fun when you notice things like this that are for the most part under the radar.

But I'm honestly leaning towards: It's technically 2-D.... So they need to show all fingers. This is really the only way to do so.

reply to post by ThinkingCap

I don't think so as the artist could have simply turned the hand to show all fingers regardless of which arm.
There was the theory of the 'right hand for giving' but I cannot come to terms with that one either.
The reliefs are so meticulously designed that to disfigure them in this way would be like Leonardo painting the Mona Lisa and depicting the wrong hand.
I have noticed these for years and am totally baffled.
Away from the reliefs there is also the fact that the Pyramids are actually 8 sided and not 4. When the sun is in the right position this is highlighted showing a 'bevel' that runs from the top to the base in the middle of each side. I have read that when the facing stones were attached that this gave a concave finish to each side which is estimated to be exactly the same as the curvature of the Earth.
When the ancients achieved such wonderful accuracy it is so out of context for them to make these glaringly obvious anomalies to their work.

I have also read of a theory that the great pyramid came first and the others people take to be older, are the newer ones... that they were results of them trying to copy the great pyramid. This is a theory someone put forth based on the lack of hieroglyphics compared to others, the singular hieroglyphic table on the outside the theorist states was more of a claim to it like graffiti instead of it being a seal showing responsibility for construction.

Found a link for this theory with 6 very strong arguments for it. If they release the meaning of the heirogliphic meanings found by the shaft robots in 2011 or carbon date the paint used to make them we might get a conclusive answer www.eridu.co.uk...

I'm currently taking courses in ancient Egyptian art and architecture (as well as two other classes in Egyptology) from the University of Exeter.

OzTiger
There are thousands of these readily available on the web on innumerable sites. Not all (but over half I would say) are very, very meticulous and depict clothing and jewelry in explicit detail BUT what baffles me is why are many of the people depicted in these reliefs shown with two right hands and/or a right hand on a left hand and sometimes vice-versa.

First of all, as you look at the art -- you're looking at three THOUSAND years worth of art and from thousands of different artists with many different skill levels. I've seen some Really Bad Art on the tomb of nobles.

There wasn't a state agency that gave a stamp of approval on art before it was handed over to the tomb/chapel owner. Oftentimes it's "the best of the local artists" rather than "really great artist travels to this place to make painting, etc." We see the same thing in tomb inscriptions -- letters are miscopied by scribe/painters who obviously aren't very literate. In a land where almost everyone was an illiterate farmer, expensive art like this (expensive in terms of time and labor -- they weren't paid in money -- this was before coins were used in commerce) was the product of the local expert.

The above example is a beautiful depiction in great detail so I find it hard to come to terms that the artist would spoil such artistic work with such an anomaly (on this occasion a left hand on a right arm on the left figure). It simply doesn't make sense and is so out of context to the rest of the work that I am leaning to a theory that it was done on purpose.

It's just a style that you aren't used to. I clearly see a right hand on the right arm and a left hand on the left arm. The thumbs are not out of position. There are mistakes in style and in painting (make no mistake!) but they are the occasional bit and the true errors are from smaller cities where the local artist may not have as much training as the artist with the big workshop in the capital cities.

Text Purplereply to post by OzTiger


Maybe they were Ambidextrous which would be God/ Goddess like, reflecting a Ying/Yang aspect in spirituality in duality as men and women are depicted that way whereas some, maybe limited or unlimited in ability such as servants, have 1 hand or none.
Some have their feet as both or 1 is left/right, maybe of unknown or knowledgeable in direction.
No racism intended but our own Natives/Aborigines, made/make symbolic art, beautiful yet some, especially older 1's, can also be hard to guess or understand something that seems illogically placed yet the Artists HAVE deliberately done so either a code or representation of something we don't normally notice but probably was noticed before so much advanced media so they'd probably be best to ask....

reply to post by OzTiger
Text Purple
Apologies on 1st reply.
I meant the Native/Aborigines to our own regions would probably have better answers.
I didn't know how long a run in the world of art I'd have so took University Entrance courses as well as 4 years of the Arts. Hey, computers were just taking over.
K, to the point:
I had to study what USED to be called," Indian Art." It was actually our own Canadian/American Native/Aboriginal Art which is very symbolic or there are hidden symbols.
I interviewed 1 elderly Native/Aboriginal Artist.
It was painted on animal skin wall hangings that supposedly from original TeePees.
It was a beautiful accurate head and neck of a Goose, on a lake, feet normal and perfectly shown under the water. her head half lifted, right eye only visible, the Sun shining in a perfect sky slightly shadowed by a perfect but large Crow. The other scenery such as lake reeds, etc were normal as well.
The Goose's body was shaped right, feathery down on the exterior, about an inch of red inside the belly half full of blue water with black hatched Goslings floating in their shells. At 1st, an empty nest on the side of the lake went un-noticed.
I had no idea so I asked the old Artist. I don't recall EXACTLY the words he used but it WAS a looooong story lol!

What it boiled down to was: " That was Lake Goose. White men were taking the young as though they were our Gods with the right to. It means, Lake Goose has 5 young she is hiding under the Sun God from the Soul God, the Crow who is searching for them. Hidden under her wing as close as if in her womb. The emptied nest fools the Crow, making it appear another God took them, or that they died already. Her 5 children are painted Black so the Gods who want to take them, will not see them. She watches the sky always while the Crow God flies over. She watches with her hidden right eye. She pretends to gather food from the water, her young won't be heard. This picture let her husband Tall Moose know they were safe and where he could find them."

The whole story was perfectly logical especially to their community while that kind of thing went on.

Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say end of my last reply though it still somewhat lacks without the 2 or more hour story? lol!

reply to post by StormyStars


Nice story pictograph art's root is in telling a story without words, like a book for someone that knows the story to narrate, sadly no one to narrate the hands.

Further in general regard to posting since my last, sorry to lump it in one post... Skill of the first relief above doesn't point to a mistake in my opinion you have to think of how they were making these things, they took a lot of time to produce there is no way that the hands are accidental in my opinion but fully intentional. Writing it off as a mistake sure maybe if it were a couple of times then perhaps a coincidence, but it is too frequent as far as I am concerned to be an opps... saying it is an opps is the way some folks deal with what they don't understand, to avoid further ponder write it off with the easiest logical explanation to deduce and move on... is that deduction also rational? Not in the slightest based on further evidence, so instead of denial perhaps simply saying the verdict is still out, and all conjecture at this point is simply theory?

BigBrotherDarkness
reply to post by StormyStars

 

Nice story pictograph art's root is in telling a story without words, like a book for someone that knows the story to narrate, sadly no one to narrate the hands.

Actually, BOTH pictures have a lot of hieroglyphs around them (check for pictures of the full artifact), and they say what's going on in the pictures. (You can learn to read hieroglyphs for yourself. I'm doing that.)

reply to post by Byrd


This post makes me think; A Byrd in the hand is worth two in the bush... my passion for Egyptology petered out in my early 20's, sure I still find the subject interesting because there are a lot of unanswered questions and some get answered or theorized on and I pop my head back in, but as politely as I can say this, I do not have the wherewithal to theorize the scene sure as an artist I will find the relief breath takingly beautiful but even if I knew how to read more Hieroglyphs than I currently do, I'd still only have a theory at best. The one I first posted was put forth by someone way more astute in Egyptology than myself, when I was heavily embroiled in Egyptian magic that was coming out in the pre 1950's I read about the one hand giving while the other takes, in many different places, which in my mind solidifies that theory a bit more than a reoccurring accident by perhaps many dyslexic workers.

I see how the hand being said is a left on the right could be a palm up or to the rear instead of two left hands, and indeed in some reliefs that is exactly what it is, especially when two figures are holding hands. I wish I could link the one of Marduk and the ones from South America but unfortunately I can't. It shows the sameness handed depictions to be a bit less questionable and more intentional, one is in 3 dimensions like a totem to have different hands on it all one would have to do is mirror the first, pretty remedial for any artist especially when they have their own two hands to use as a point of reference. Seeing those helps this one a bit sure it's a correlation and not a direct cause and effect, but still a very strong reason to take a deeper look instead of just brushing it off, I believe those two things deeper and brushing off, in tandem is what makes a good archaeologist not just one or the other.

Text Purplereply to post by BigBrotherDarkness


lol! Thank you I think....
I was, in my own way, agreeing to the O.P.
I DO believe it was NOT done that way by accidental design.
i also believe it was done or used to symbolize something more than, " All 3 fingers of equal length had to be shown."
Firstly, the FOUR fingers may be equal length, the thumbs are still shorter.
Secondly, I also do NOT believe it to be an, " Optical illusion."
Thirdly, I do not buy into the idea that it was done by," A less talented Artist especially in smaller Cities."

I love Art. It has ALWAYS been my 1st passion. I'm just not good enough to sell all the different types I've done.
Best money I made was from doing characters at small fair type events lol!
Actually, I have sold a few paintings during my lifetime, and sporadically, for quite a pretty penny lol!

My late Dad was famous as in, he was famous during his lifetime for mainly his very detailed, usually themed rock Sculptures, though he did do some life sized ones, le' The 2 Buffalo on each side of the entrance to our legislative building, soldiers, miners, etc.

My late Mom designed clothing for Macy's and Bloomingdale's before starting her own line called, " Babe. ' She did a few other forms of Art as well from decorating cakes to doing portraits.

I also love mysteries and always have, my favorite form of mysteries are usually about Art. All kinds, I would love to go to Egypt among other various Countries or just places, for the Art alone. To admire and study.

Sigh! Why couldn't I have ever been rich? lol!

Both of my parents and most family were all good musicians and singers as well. I lack that though I try still... lol!

There MUST be a better, more logical explanation to the OP's mystery. Still. Someplace, Hopefully Egypt. Apparently, origins are another mystery

And the old saying was," If one's right hand itches, money will be paid from it, if one's left hand itches, money will be paid into it."

I figure most Roman Catholic beliefs are stole from many of the oldest religious beliefs. ie; " The Ascended will sit at God's right hand."
I think I was one of the last generations in Canada at least, to in up to the end of grade 2, to have had left handedness beaten, er... punished, being told using the left hand is work of," The Devil." Oooooh !

One theory could be that the Roman Catholics Stole the whole concept, and reversed it as they have many older beliefs. Could have originated an Original Osiris, Isis & Horace thing. That people ascended, would sit at their left hand.

SOMETHING tells me that it IS Religious in nature and the truth of it known but hidden until needed. Somehow.

Would the oldest Egyptian Artists know anything about it from teaching of their Art? I would think so.
Maybe the truth stays hidden due to religion and the possible wars of a Country already at unrest, needs to keep hidden?

I believe the truth of it is known. Just not to us. Which also begs a big," Why?"

Although the student may be correct and we just can't accept her answer as it kills enticing intrigue>

Text Purplereply to post by OzTiger


Then again, it could just be symbolic of the people's depicted, status....