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ownbestenemy
reply to post by DeadSeraph
If I have gathered right, you are saying that because they are rich, they should not live how they wish but instead give up their wealth in the name of altruism and compassion? Am I getting that right?!
DeadSeraph
eLPresidente
DeadSeraph
eLPresidente
EarthCitizen07
INTERNAL REVENUE TAX AND AUDIT SERVICE (IRS)
For Profit General Delaware Corporation
Incorporation Date 7/12/33
File No. 0325720
FEDERAL RESERVE ASSOCIATION (Federal Reserve)
Non-profit Delaware Corporation
Incorporation Date 9/13/14
File No. 0042817
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AUTHORITY INC. (CIA)
For Profit General Delaware Corporation
Incorporation Date 3/9/83
File No. 2004409
FEDERAL LAND ACQUISITION CORP.
For-profit General Delaware Corporation
Incorporation Date 8/22/80
File No. 0897960
SOCIAL SECURITY CORP, DEPT. OF HEALTH, EDUCATION AND WELFARE
For-Profit General Delaware Corporation
Incorporation Date: 11/13/89
File No. 2213135
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INC.
Non-profit Delaware Corporation
Incorporation Date 4/19/89 File No. 2193946
www.metatech.org...
hmnm hmm
I'm sure the OP is speechless right about now, the silence is deadening....
So many government monopolies, so little outrage by the monopoly haters. If anything, free market advocates are MORE anti-monopoly than the OP.
Give me a break. Where did I ever say I support the federal reserve? You are trying to paint me as a socialist or like some kind of government lapdog when nothing could be further from the truth. I support the ideas behind libertarianism. I don't think the government should be poking its nose in peoples lives. But the problem is that corporations aren't individual citizens yet in the U.S they have been awarded the same rights. That seems ass backwards to me.
You have entirely missed the point and it makes sense because you do not want to face and reflect upon your self-contradiction.
I didn't say you supported the federal reserve, I said you are silent on government monopolies in the very thread you are advocating the government to tear down what they decide is a [supposedly] private monopoly.
If a government can't be trusted to avoid monopolies, how can they be trusted to break down other monopolies?
So if the government can't be trusted (which I think we can both agree on), who can be trusted to keep corporations in check? Will you at least agree that SOME regulation is needed?
EarthCitizen07
eLPresidente
To answer your question, I don't believe in protectionism. You are advocating protectionism.
That right there means you like international capitalism. Protectionist measures are intended to protect the local economy. Without them what will stop any and all corporations that have enough capital from packing up and giving the finger to most american workers who supposedly demand too much compensation and benefits?
Now I can see why people hate minimum wage laws. They want to make usa equivilant to china, taiwan, india, north korea, etc. They want to lure business back to america by screwing the american workers, because apparently business is much more important than the workers.
This is quite immoral. I am suprised that you fail to see this.
reply to post by eLPresidente
What the heck, you're the one that has been advocating that government oversight is needed to break down monopolies, now you're admitting that the government can't be trusted like it is been your talking point this entire time. So which is it? which side of the story are you going with??
DeadSeraph
reply to post by eLPresidente
What the heck, you're the one that has been advocating that government oversight is needed to break down monopolies, now you're admitting that the government can't be trusted like it is been your talking point this entire time. So which is it? which side of the story are you going with??
Come on... I've admitted through this entire thread that corporations are in bed with corrupt government... The entire premise of the thread is that the system is broken and that there must be a better way. Your solution is to break it even more and yet I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about?
It's like talking to a brick.
eLPresidente
What the heck is international capitalism????? Quit giving everything new labels, lol!
Its either capitalism or it isn't, I don't think that is too hard to get.
Seriously though, I'm glad you are 'more libertarian' now, because I remember you used to be a diehard advocate for socialism maybe within the last 6 months to less than a year, you've had a transformation. I'm pretty sure some of my libertarian/Ron Paul rants helped to change your mind too.
Protectionism is not free market capitalism, in fact it is detrimental to free markets and the economy. Here is one example of protectionism that has failed us miserably:
There is a tariff on cane sugar in USA, they are not allowed to compete on equal footing, enter GMO corn syrup/high fructose corn syrup sugar (which btw receives major subsidies by the federal government). Price of natural, wholesome cane sugar goes up, GMO sugar goes WAY WAY down, mass consumption of GMO ensues. Theres your beautiful protectionism all wrapped up in a neat little package.
As far as jobs go, yes America has been losing jobs to overseas wages that demand less (not preferable but understandable), jobs ALWAYS goes to the lowest bidder, if you were on eBay and you were bidding on something, YOU would bid on the lowest price too because that is the best choice for YOUR bottom line. Guess what? Jobs will eventually come back to the US because job seekers in the USA will lower their standards and demand LESS, wow can you imagine that!
EarthCitizen07
yes from a business and consumer perspective what you say makes sense. however who will look out for the workers and give them some respect? I am not saying the workers are anymore special than business, I think they are equally important.
i hope they come back because the imports from china are too expensive after the american government hammers american business with crazy tariffs. or they can stay in china and sell their garbage to the yellow chinks.
I dont think there is any sense arguing with people like you. you see things with your conservative glasses on and I see things with my national socialist contact lenses on. neither of us is necessarily correct or wrong. we just have different approches.
eLPresidente
Of course it makes sense, it has nothing to do with conservatism or socialism man, it only has to do with what makes economic and moral sense. It is logic, pure logic. I don't look at the world through "conservative glasses" I really don't know where you're getting that from. I may be fiscally conservative but who the hell isn't? Everyone is fiscally conservative when they have to be, and we sure as hell are not in a situation where we can be 'fiscally liberal' as the most indebted nation in world history.
Now I'm confused, at first you say you are now libertarian but now you call yourself a nationalistic socialist!? very confusing for me. There seems to be some identity mix up on your end??
As for who will look out for the workers? Please I hope you're not going to point to government as the answer. I think we've already established how much of a F-UP this government can be. Government can't fix wages and government can't fix the treatment and safety of employees. If anybody here bothers to go back to when workplace safety was established as law, they would see that the trend was already going in the direction of more safety vs less or stagnant.
I dont' think I need to say this again but it all boils down to ownership and rights. Who owns what and who has the RIGHTS to what. Surely nobody will attempt to say that the government owns anything that should NOT belong to them.
Like I said earlier, I don't care too much about the labels, its not about conservatism vs liberalism vs socialism to me. It is about ownership and morality. What my rights are, what your rights are, how are property rights protected, how rights are protected, and so on. Maybe if you can see it from that perspective, you'd get exactly where I'm coming from. Free markets may not be perfect, especially with government involved in the picture. But the least we can do is to abide by a moral and voluntary exchange of goods for services in a truly free market and not use a third party monopolization of force others to do the things WE think are good for them.
Try to argue "forcing other people to do things that we think may be good for them" in a logic/philosophy class and see what the professor says.
As for protectionism, no I did not pick a sneaky case, I simply gave you an example of protectionism that directly affects Americans. Tariffs are a form of protectionism and there is a tariff on cane sugar whether we grow it or not. Because of the artificial raising of prices on cane sugar, it is not able to compete directly with a subsidized GMO corn product. We are getting gmo sugar when we COULD be getting quality sugar. You said protectionism is necessary, and I made a case against it.
What is wrong with that picture? There are plenty of ways for America to look out for their own interests without disrupting the free market, without implementing protectionist measures.
dude by the way, neoconservatism has almost nothing to do with free markets, I don't know where you got that idea from, it is pretty silly of you to say. Neoconservatism is very closely related to bush/cheney style of foreign policy world governance. Just thought I might let you know so that you don't link me or free markets to neoconservatism anymore.
edit on 26-10-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)edit on 26-10-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)
EarthCitizen07
Did you read my post on the federal reserve being a private corporation? The federal reserve was the one that loaned money(or so they say) to big business in terms of quantative easing. America itself is a corporation. The IMF and World Bank are corporations.
When did I ever say I was a libertarian? What is the definition of national socialism?
I dont trust neoliberals for beans. Why do conservatives ASSume that if you are not conservative then you somehow support Obama and his neoliberal administration? Didn't occupy protest for months in the streets AGAINST his administration?
Not every occupy supporter votes democrat and thinks in terms of wasted votes, much like not each tea party supporter votes republican. We vote third parties like constitution, green, libertarian, spusa, cpusa, justice, etc.
So whats the role of government then? Its not about what government owns, its about government legislating and enforcing laws.
I dont support free markets regardless if its obama, bush, johnson, palin, anyone in office.
Again whats the role of government then? Its like a neutered dog that cant reproduce. He can be by the female all day and accomplish nothing. I am not saying we need stalin or hitler either, they were mass murdering criminals and its a strawman arguement every conservative makes to smear socialism. Capitalism has killed plenty of people as well fighting against the spread of communism and phoney religious wars.
Try to argue "forcing other people to do things that we think may be good for them" in a logic/philosophy class and see what the professor says.
So how exactly is "whether we grow it or not" a tariff? Tariffs are meant to discourage imports and help the local economy grow/produce the same item. I am not aware of any sugar cane being grown in the states and most of it comes from the carribean.
In other words its not really a tariff, its protectionism for gmo crops which monsato has its tentacles all over our government. Hillary clinton was a lawyer for that firm back in the days, or maybe she still is, I dont know.
I honestly cant think of any other ways to bring business back to the usa and keep it here. It would also be nice for the chineese to be able to develop their own economy with chineese corporatism to compete with us.
Currently american and european countries have a stranglehold on the chineese economy. We are buying american merchandise made in china. Chineese brand stuff are called knock-offs like the cheap medicine you see advertised on the internet.
Well the only difference I see between traditional conservatives and new conservatives is that one wants wars in the middle east and the other seems not to. I guess another difference is that one wants a federal reserve and the other wants competing currencies and/or a gold standard. I dont know you guys confuse me.
If you dont like being linked to neocons, then please return the favor and stop ASSuming every centrist or leftist is an obamaNOID neoliberal robot. Both neoliberals and neoconservatives are globalist satanists as far as I can tell.
eLPresidente
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
You are kind of everywhere with your arguments. You get off-topic and start tossing around labels that have absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. You tried to link neoconservatism to free markets then link it back to me, I proved you wrong and you went on some neoliberal rant!?!? very confusing.
I feel you are Alex Jones in a lot of ways, you absorb good information and turn it into your own version of history and outlook of the world. Well intentioned but misguided, imo.
edit on 26-10-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)
eLPresidente
I read it and already knew it, I also know that it is going off-topic so I don't bother to talk about how the USG is in fact a corporation. You need to understand commerce more. The fact that the USG is a corporation really doesn't have much to do with free markets, understand that.
I don't know man, a lot of what you said in earlier posts really had me fooled that you were libertarian leaning.
It is quite funny, I googled national socialism and almost the entire first page was talking about Nazism and Nazi Germany.
Have fun with your national socialism but it isn't for me.
I just told you what the role of government is, it is the same role that we all should understand it to be. To PROTECT our rights. PROTECT life, liberty, property, and contracts.
Try to argue "forcing other people to do things that we think may be good for them" in a logic/philosophy class and see what the professor says.
I mean, did you REALLY just respond with "again whats the role of government then?" REALLY? You are going to just sit there and say the role of government is to force people to do things they may not want to do? Where do they get the right to do that? Have you never heard of the Constitution? I'm sure you have.
Oh and, seriously, YOU brought up Hitler and Stalin, I didn't say anything about them, then you try to say that its a conservatism strawman argument, dude YOU brought it up!
Seriously? You want to keep sitting there and refusing to believe there is a cane sugar tariff? Why don't you just google it? This is a plain and simple fact. There is a tariff on cane sugar...........
I'm not quite convinced that you understand how economies, and more importantly, how market forces work. You don't have to think of ways to bring businesses back to USA and keep it here, that isn't the way it works. Businesses can be enticed to come back but nobody can force them to stay. You loosen business regulations and reduce corporate tax rate so businesses see coming back as VIABLE and CONVENIENT for their bottom line. What else can one do? Walk a business back to the USA with a knife to it's throat?
I just told you that you were wrong for linking free markets to neoconservatism. We're not talking about wars and the gold standard, it is simple neoconservatism and free markets aren't mutually exclusive in anyway, it is a horrible comparison to say the least. You are confusing yourself bro.
What the heck are you talking about Obamanoid? I never said that, I never said Centrist or leftist in this thread and I don't know where the heck globalist satanists came from but I sure as hell never talk about that either.
edit on 26-10-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)