Justice, The Death Penalty, Religion, Economics and Hell - a terrible quandary

Sorry it was blank before, I hit enter instead of tab.

OKAY, this one's been brewing in my mind for a few weeks - today I have found a couple of articles that compelled me to go ahead and post a thread on it.

Those stories:
Saudi woman beheaded for 'witchcraft and sorcery'

(CNN) -- A woman was beheaded in Saudi Arabia for practicing witchcraft and sorcery, the kingdom's Interior Ministry said, prompting Amnesty International to call for a halt in executions there.

Amina bint Abdel Halim Nassar was executed Monday for having "committed the practice of witchcraft and sorcery," according to an Interior Ministry statement. Nassar was investigated before her arrest and was "convicted of what she was accused of based on the law," the statement said. Her beheading took place in the Qariyat province of the region of Al-Jawf, the ministry said.

In a statement issued late Monday, the human rights group called the execution "deeply shocking" and said it "highlights the urgent need for a halt in executions in Saudi Arabia."

"While we don't know the details of the acts which the authorities accused Amina of committing, the charge of sorcery has often been used in Saudi Arabia to punish people, generally after unfair trials, for exercising their right to freedom of speech or religion," said Philip Luther, Amnesty International's interim director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme.

Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy, practices a puritanical version of Islam and is governed by Shariah, or Islamic law. In the deeply conservative kingdom, sorcery, witchcraft and blasphemy are all offenses that can be punishable by death.

Beheaded for sorcery and witchcraft. Like centuries ago in the West. This is sickening. This is in a kingdom with Sharia law in its harshest form - and it is NOT an impoverished country.

It brings up Justice/Religion, and The Death Penalty.

The second article:
No mercy for Iranian execution survivor

Convicted by an Iranian court of possessing a kilogram of crystal meth, the 37-year-old man was sentenced to death by hanging at Bojnurd Prison in northeastern Iran, according to Jam-E-Jam, an official newspaper that offered this wince-inducing account:

On the morning of October 9, Alireza M. was taken from his cell to the gallows, where the judge who had issued the order read his sentence aloud and official papers were signed.

Then, a rope was placed around his neck and he was hanged for 12 minutes, after which his body was lowered and a doctor declared he was dead. The doctor, the judge and the prison head then signed the death certificate, and the body of Alireza M. was taken to a morgue for delivery the following day to his relatives.

But the next day, a worker at the morgue noticed that plastic encasing one of the bodies had steam in front of the mouth.

The worker told the doctors at the morgue, who took Alireza M. to Imam Ali hospital in the town of Bojnurd, where he was reported to be feeling better.

Hmmmm.....
hanged for 12 minutes - taken down as "dead" - papers signed, and sent to the morgue.

NOT DEAD. This reminds me of an old, old story about a man who supposedly 'resurrected' from "death." I'm sure you can all recognize who it was.

Now, let's consider that this is 2013. That 2,000-years-past event is STILL an enormous topic of controversy, debate, hostility, and mystery. Personally, I believe Jesus, too, survived, and was treated by his Essene friends; and then 'spirited away' after letting his followers know he was alive, complete with holes, weakness, hunger, thirst, etc.

One of the theories is that if he had stuck around, stayed there, they'd SURELY have killed him AGAIN. Just like they are planning to do with this Iranian man. (For a drug-trafficking crime, caught with a kilo of crystal-meth.)

He did NOT escape, however, and in BOTH of these cases, from just the last few days, Amnesty International is denouncing the practices as evil and shocking. I agree.
-------------------
Now, let's look at the West (USA) and the Death Penalty as an outcome of Due Justice: (please note that NOT ALL STATES in the USA have the death penalty, and some of them still have it, but haven't exercised it in decades.

In the US, death is by gas chamber, lethal injection, or electrocution. All barbaric, as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, it is VERY EXPENSIVE to keep a prisoner on death row for the DECADES it takes for appeals to run their course - during which time, prisons, employees of prisons, and lawyers keep raking in the dough - and the taxpayers foot the bill while PRIVATE prisons become wealthy. Some judges are even suspected of taking "bribes" to incarcerate people in these private prisons.

In New York, ONE prisoner costs the public $167,000 PER YEAR to support, house, feed, etc. This amount might be higher than in other cities due to the prison being on Riker's Island, and transportation to and from court is costly as well.

Why can the prisoners not be on closed-caption-television rather than going to court? That would shave at least SOME of the cost to taxpayers. But - if death penalties are carried out swiftly, the taxpayers are spared the cost - the prisons don't get rich, and lawyers have to find "new" cases to defend, rather than sucking of the public teat through years and years of 'due process.'

This seems ridiculous to me. Even so, I am NOT a proponent of the Death Penalty, EVER. In the case of homicidal maniacs guilty of sickeningly sadistic, gruesome crimes, life in solitary would be acceptable. But how many people are now on this protracted "death row" in the USA?

Yes, I agree that in some cases, new "tests" (such as DNA) can and DO result in prisoners being released, sometimes decades after they were incarcerated. In those situations, it is good that the penalty was postponed. But, what about when we get so hi-tech that it is VERY RARELY that an innocent is convicted?? What if we KNOW that the convicted ARE guilty,

WHO ARE HUMANS TO SENTENCE ANOTHER HUMAN TO DEATH?

And so we come full circle to the concept of "Divine Justice", "Mercy", "Forgiveness", and "Hell" (whether it means being furnace fuel or "Eternal Separation from God.")

Most religious people believe they have no right to judge others. They believe that "God" will be the one to meet out appropriate "discipline". I personally DO NOT BELIEVE IN HELL,
I believe we are all connected. When we "kill someone", we are harming a part of "God" - that is...ourselves as a collective representation of GOD made manifest.

Some humans behave so atrociously that yes, they should be removed from society - shunned, outcast. Left to their own devices; perhaps in the wilderness, or perhaps rounded up and put together to sort it out amongst their nasty, sick selves. But WHY should law-abiding citizens PAY FOR THEIR HOUSING and UPKEEP?

Yet NOT pay for children and the working poor or disabled to have housing and food??

It's backwards.

To wrap up - it seems most "sensible" and "plausible" to me that we "reincarnate" - there is NO "Eternal Punishment" -


But, I'll leave it there, and hope for another interesting discussion of the topic!

reply to post by wildtimes

List of United States death row inmates

Currently, there are 3,125 people total on death row in all of America. 733 of these inmates belong to California. California currently has the highest population of condemned prisoners in all of the 50 states. Following California is Florida with 413 death row inmates, Texas with 300, and Pennsylvania with 202 inmates awaiting death. There are currently 15 states in America that do not have any inmates on death row. The United States Government has sentenced 61 people to death, the United States Military has sentenced 5 people to death, and Wyoming and New Hampshire have one inmate each awaiting death.

3,125 people x (let's say) $150,000 = $468,750,000

nearly HALF A BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Not much compared to Department of Defense, Education, etc. - but STILL a sizeable chunk of change, that could go toward feeding the hungry, and housing the homeless.

Again, this seems backwards.

There are 18 states that have abolished their death penalty; federal cases there, Washington D.C., and the U.S. territories of American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Northern Mariana Islands, and the U.S. Virgin Islands may still have death penalty verdicts and sentences.

Only 18 have abolished it. Those states are (with the date of abolition noted):

Michigan (1st May 18, 1846);
Wisconsin (2nd 1853);
Maine (3rd 1887);
Minnesota (4th 1911);
Puerto Rico (constitutionally in 1929);
Hawaii (5th 1948 - prior to statehood);
Alaska (6th 1957 - prior to statehood);
Vermont (with the exception of a lingering statute for treason -1964);
Iowa (1965);
West Virginia (1965);
North Dakota (1973);
Washington, D.C. (1981);
Massachusetts (ruled unconstitutional 1984;
Rhode Island (1984);
New Jersey
& New York (ruled unconstitutional - 2007);
New Mexico (2009);
Illinois (2011);
Connecticut (2012);
Maryland (2013).

UN moratorium on the Death Penalty]

At Italy's instigation, the UN moratorium on the death penalty resolution was presented by the EU in partnership with eight co-author member States to the General Assembly of the United Nations, calling for general suspension (not abolition) of capital punishment throughout the world. It was twice affirmed: first, on 15 November 2007 by the Third Committee, and then subsequently reaffirmed on 18 December by the United Nations General Assembly resolution 62/149. New Zealand played a central role facilitating agreement between the co-author group and other supporters.

It calls on States that maintain the death penalty to establish a moratorium on the use of the death penalty with a view to abolition, and in the meantime, to restrict the number of offences which it punishes and to respect the rights of those on death row. It also calls on States that have abolished the death penalty not to reintroduce it. Like all General Assembly resolutions, it is not binding on any state.

Too bad it's not "binding". But - What would "God" have us do? (IF there is an "overseeing Creator with human traits", that is). But, since I think WE are all God, made manifest, my hunch is...erm, NO. NO DEATH PENALTY.

On 18 December 2007, the United Nations General Assembly voted 104 to 54 in favour of resolution A/RES/62/149, which proclaims a global moratorium on the death penalty, with 29 abstentions (as well as 5 absent at the time of the vote).[1] Italy had proposed and sponsored this resolution. After the resolution's approval, Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D'Alema declared: "Now we must start working on the abolition of the death penalty".[2]

Now, since I see things the way I do, I find it wrong to kill another human being.
I once saw a bumper sticker that said,

"Why Do We Kill People to Show Killing People is Wrong?"

It stuck with me - it's been YEARS ago that I saw it, one time, on a car in traffic. But it's an important question.

So, that's the generally secular stance of the United Nations, which body also penned "Declaration of Universal Human Rights" after WW2. I believe it is true, and obvious.

------------------------
Worldwide stats: Capital Punishment

Capital punishment has, in the past, been practised by most societies.[2] Currently 58 nations actively practise it, 97 countries have abolished it de jure for all crimes, 8 have abolished it for ordinary crimes only (maintain it for special circumstances such as war crimes), and 35 have abolished it de facto (have not used it for at least ten years and/or are under moratorium) .[3]

Amnesty International considers most countries abolitionist, overall, the organisation considers 140 countries to be abolitionist in law or practice.[3]

The capital punishment is a matter of active controversy in various countries and states, and positions can vary within a single political ideology or cultural region. In the European Union member states, Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.[4] The Council of Europe, which has 47 member states, also prohibits the use of the death penalty by its members.

Now, if we lowly humans can come up with those sorts of ideas, WHY IN HEAVEN would it NOT be the same for "GOD"?
Who were the countries who rejected the UN resolution proposed by Italy?:

Although many nations have abolished capital punishment, over 60% of the world's population live in countries where executions take place, such as
the People's Republic of China,
India,
the United States of America and
Indonesia, the four most-populous countries in the world, which continue to apply the death penalty (although in India, Indonesia and in many US states it is rarely employed). Each of these four nations voted against the General Assembly resolutions.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14]

......

According to Amnesty International, only 21 countries were known to have had executions carried out in 2011. In addition, there are countries which do not publish information on the use of capital punishment, most significantly China.[57] At least 18,750 people worldwide were under sentence of death at the beginning of 2012.[58]

Next up, an overview of world religions and their stances on the Death Penalty.

reply to post by wildtimes


The UN can take a hike. Death penalty should be mandatory and reserved for 1st degree murdur, rape, adultery during wedlock, and conspiracy against the Constitution.

Religion and capital punishment

(Listings are taken from the Contents section of the wiki site - summaries of stance provided by me. See the article for more information.)
Let's do Christianity first:

Roman Catholic Church - YES but not advisable/case by case basis

Orthodoxy - no official position, but it has come and gone off and on

Anglican and Episcopalian - NO

The Southern Baptist Convention - YES

Lutheran/Calvinist - YES

Mennonites - NO

Church of the Brethren - NO

Friends - NO

Mormonism - No official position, but has used firing squad in the past

Islam - YES

Buddhism - Disputed among sects

Hinduism - YES, but case-by-case

Judaism - YES, but only under VERY stringent conditions

These stats alone might lead a "seeker" to choose one religion over another.

What say you, folks?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


Okay, if that's your stance:
how long should it be carried out after conviction?

Trust me, there ARE cases where I've thought the offender oughta just be "taken out behind the barn and shot."

But, those are VERY rare; and I would never do it myself.

I don't think rape (except in the case of children), adultery in marriage, or political ideology should be punishable by death, though. That's quite extreme, in my opinion.

EDIT: Also, why do you think it's appropriate for humans to make that decision?

reply to post by wildtimes


Or we could just send them all to penal colony islands without any way of leaving and let them fend for themselves, like they did in the old days? Or we could use them as slave labor like they did in the old days?

Charles Manson was convicted under the death penalty but California overturned it, so the state of California has been paying every day for his room and board and he still receives the most mail of any prisoner. Just recently a man was arrested for trying to send a cell phone to Manson. But as you can see, even if someone is in solitary, as Charles Manson was many times, it still does not stop their influence. In fact, drug dealers and mafia members still are able to control what's going on outside through their influence.

There is no easy solution, but simply by giving them the message that they will be set for life having a bed and three square meals, with access to TV and the outside world is not stopping them. And being in prison does not change them much. In fact, most Muslim converts in the US are converted in prison, then when they get out they carry with them the same psychology that caused them to be put in prison.

Think about this one though, Phillip Garrido who kidnapped Jaycee Dugard when she was 11 years-old, had been released early from prison by fooling the psychiatrists and the parole board. He didn't change at all, and in fact was worse than when he went in. But would giving him the death penalty have been the answer? We don't know, but the problem is that many of these people are released too soon and in the same condition as when they went in. So obviously mental health services in prison is not working either.

So what to do? How about this, why don't we address the issue of crime from the fundamental root of the problem instead of looking for solutions on how to deal with the problem after it gets out of hand. I believe the fundamental root is that man is full of sin. There's no way around it, the heart of man is desperately wicked. Unless that changes, the problem will remain of what to do with an ever-expanding prison population that our society cannot handle the strain anymore.

Education is failing, not because education itself is lacking, but the concept of being educated is not embraced any more. We are sending millions of kids through high school who don't want to be there, their parents have chosen to receive welfare instead of working, they believe drug dealing and pimping is easy money, so what do they do? They deal drugs and pimp out prostitutes and do it every day of the week and don't care about being educated. Then they take this attitude to create a new pop culture attitude among the young. How many young kids do you see dressing the "thug lyfe"? That's how they spell it now. How many young girls do you see chasing the young thugs? Why is the thug life so heartily embraced by today's youth? And I am talking about black, white, Hispanic and Asian, there is no difference.

Thug life is so glamorized now there are so many different subcultures within that, and not one single subculture embraces education at all. And who is to blame for that? Society is to blame because we have allowed education to be kicked to the curb while demanding at the same time to give today's students iPads in place of paper and pencils. Did you know now that cursive writing is no longer being taught in some schools? I know a 15 year-old boy who cannot read cursive because it was never taught to him in school. The University of North Carolina says that spelling is no longer important, it's the usage of the word that matters. Our youth have been dumbed down to the gutter, so why try to better themselves? These are the future of this country and the penal system.

Killing them is not the answer, changing their lives is. But we can't lives of people who don't want to be changed. We can't change lives of kids whose parents say there is nothing wrong with their children. When there is no standard of morality, we can see the effects. And the effects are an overcrowded prison population that we can't pay for any more. Ask them about their standards of morality and they will tell you "whose morality is more right?"

The moral condition of the human is the root problem, and until we address that, it will get worse.

I fully agree that God should decide judgement. Get one inflated lorry innertube, put said criminals into tube and depending on the severity of the crime set them afloat in the Atlantic. Murderers get set free in the centre and lesser crimes nearer to land, minimum distance 100 moles. If God decides they're innocent they will survive. If they do survive then incarcerate them. No human kills another human, God does it.

Though I am 64 years old I spelt miles as moles in my last post. I am reliably told by young people that it is now de reguere to include spelling mistakes in any correspondence.

reply to post by wildtimes


If that woman was actually practicing black magic....good riddance.

crayzeed
Though I am 64 years old I spelt miles as moles in my last post. I am reliably told by young people that it is now de reguere to include spelling mistakes in any correspondence.

ikr....smh at tht 1. U c the prblm 2 and tht's the way things b now. Thug lyfe 4evah, tht's whut the deal is now, bra.

Execution in our current system is a complicated subject, mainly because of the abject corruption in 95% of government above local. Given that abject corruption, I might say that I slightly lean towards no death penalty, because of the ease in which someone can be framed, courts can be bought, etc.

However in a better, less corrupt system where courts really tried towards actual justice and keeping the spirit of the law, and where courts could not be bought, I would say execution is a viable form of justice in certain cases.

Cases like treason, rape, and clear acts of war whether physical or otherwise (economic) should have the death penalty as standard. In cases of murder it would have to be dealt with on a case by case basis, but have the option available.

For it comes down to this, really: we have limited resources, limited space, and limited facilities. All life is NOT precious, and those who are clear malefactors to the overall system should not be housed and fed, continuing their drain on resources, but simply removed from the system (society) completely, in a manner in which they cannot return to further destroy it.

Traitors, rapists, actors of war, and sometimes murderers, need not burden society any further than they already have once justly convicted in an objective, non-bias court of law with evidence to support the conviction, and stringent measures taken to avoid a false conviction. They should be executed immediately following the sentencing, as well. No appeal.

Of course thats all in my drastically less corrupt, honorable society that doesnt exist anywhere except in my mind, or some strange, bizzaro-land parallel universe where humans are generally honorable creatures that value principles over metaphorical shiny objects.

reply to post by WarminIndy

ikr....smh at tht 1. U c the prblm 2 and tht's the way things b now. Thug lyfe 4evah, tht's whut the deal is now, bra.

Proof of devolution.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

ikr....smh at tht 1. U c the prblm 2 and tht's the way things b now. Thug lyfe 4evah, tht's whut the deal is now, bra.

Proof of devolution.

My point exactly. LOL.

My thought is this...this world is turning into Idiocracy. I thought the movie was a spoof of pop culture ethics, but I can see now, it is going to happen. The future of this planet, is Idiocracy.

reply to post by wildtimes


After a FAIR trial (a modern rarity), if there is no appeal, then execution should be within 24 hours of verdict.

Marriage as defined in America is the voluntary contracted unification between 2 individuals. There exists marriage and divorce. If you cant respect your spouse with devorce before adultey, then I personally feel that the death penalty should be instituted. If you cant commit, dont marry. If you cant remain married then seek divorce, but dont betray your spouse.

If a person can take another person's life into his or her hands, then the criminals life should be taken by the law.

Rehabilitating a rapist is a gamble. Leave them in prison, and chances are they will prisoners rape prisoners. If a human has the right to execute a rapist in self defense, then the law should have the right to execute a rape convict.

Who are we to say that a child is worth more than an adult? A child will eventually become an adult.

If we kill off the most violent criminals, then crime rate will stay low.

reply to post by crayzeed


I LIKE it!!!!

Great idea.

Have you seen "Life of Pi"? I think you'd appreciate it very much. (Or the book - the book, imo, is better).

reply to post by WarminIndy

ikr....smh at tht 1. U c the prblm 2 and tht's the way things b now. Thug lyfe 4evah, tht's whut the deal is now, bra.

Wurd. *side-five, side-five, knuckle-knock*



LOL!! At first I thought you'd had a psychotic episode!! Or your kid stole your keyboard...
well done.

Your earlier post was a veritable essay; and deserves to be noticed and read.

I agree with MOST of it. The part I disagree with is that "we are all wicked sinners at heart."

Yes, we have a terrible problem, but I don't think "religion" or "morals" are the answer. And I, too believe in stopping it from happening instead of cleaning up the mess.

The idea is NOT to just collect the corpses after it's all over. That would be Tertiary intervention. Useless for the victims, but keeps the place tidy.

Nor is the idea to keep pulling the drowning people out of the river, give them a towel, and send them on their way. (That I'd call passive Secondary intervention.)

Then we'd have active Secondary intervention: Pull them out of the river, dry them off, give them a meal, maybe a bed for a night.

Then there's a Secondary/Primary solution:
Pull them out of the river, dry them off, give them a meal, a bed, a room, and TEACH THEM TO SWIM. MEANWHILE, find the asshats throwing them off the bridge in the first place, and put an immediate stop to it.

But no, I don't promote returning "God" or "religion" to the education system. The system itself DOES need an overhaul, yes. It's outdated, boring, and intended for "industrial masses", not computer-literate 21st c kids. Too few teachers are able to cope with the sub-cultures most likely to be involved.

But - having said all that; what do you do NOW?
The prisons are overflowing; murder is rampant all over the world (always has been, let's not sugarcoat it.)

My choice? The very first line of your previois reply.

Or we could just send them all to penal colony islands without any way of leaving and let them fend for themselves, like they did in the old days?

Yep.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


Very profound answer. Thanks for that.

I wonder, though, how do you rate murder as a lesser crime than rape???

reply to post by WarminIndy

My thought is this...this world is turning into Idiocracy.

But....but
Brawndo has ELECTROLYTES! It's WHAT PLANTS CRAVE!

Okay, I want to apologize for the thread taking a more "jokey" tone.
I really intend for it to be discussed seriously.

Several members have provided very indepth replies -

some being aboslutely supportive of the death penalty, others leaving it in the hands of "The Cosmos", and one discussing how to prevent the need for it to start with.

I hope the conversation continues; thanks to all of you who have responded.