Value of Aleister Crowley's Occult

cartenz

I asked about your background because there is Christian Cabala that is a lot easier for someone to get into without having to learn Hebrew, its conceptually similar and fits into a Christian paradigm easier.

The Hebrew thing does not turn me off. Study of hebrew was a big part of what I studied when I was going to convert. I by no means am een close to fluent, but I do know the alphabet, and know and am familiar with a decent amount of Hebrew, in the religious context. Actually, that period of my life included the idea that Hebrew is a holy tongue, special and having depth of meaning if you can comprehend it. Not that I still view it the same way, as a divinely sent perfect language, but it still does interest me, and I actually do believe there may be something truly special about it.

I might be looking at the Crowley/Tim Leary connection too superficially--The whole chemical experimentation thing; But I never read Leary, I just know of him. As you can tell I don't take Crowley as a master of the occult, his understandings of Kabbalah IMHO are distorted by his ego and drug-fuelled psychosis, something that could be also said about Leary in relation to levitating the pentagon.

I don't fully understand the Crowley/Leary connection, just know Leary himself spoke of it often, even going so far as to say he was Crowley re-incarnated(not that he necessarily meant it literally, but shows the affinity he felt). Also, you really have to read his books to appreciate and understand Leary. People talk bad about him wihout having read his work, but you really can't have an informed opinion without doing so.

You mention the Tree of Life in the OP--emphasised early on in my studies of Kabbalah was the other tree. Knowledge is neutral, how it is applied is good/evil; I feel Crowley ignores/misinterprets this... I'm trying to remember if its in the Talmud or Genesis where God says about Adam and Eve "well at least they didnt eat from the other Tree" (referring to the Tree of Life).

edit on 14-10-2013 by cartenz because: spelling

I never heard that exact quote, but in Genesis the tree of the knowledge of good and evil IS said to be right next to the tree of life, eating from which is said to give you eternal life.

reply to post by TheJourney


Sorry I havn't responded in a few weeks, I havn't forgotten this thread.

Why I mention the ToL is that the Torah can be seen as the Sefirothic Tree of Life (written in the Zohar). I find that you end up coming back to this (ToL) concept throughout the study of Kabbalah. The Zohar the ToL at the centre of the garden of Eden. The ToKGE does not take the position at the centre; within this paradigm the ToKGE is composed of "the Sefiroth Hesed to Yesod inclusive".

Ok, so the ToL being the Torah (in this example); We see the creation narratives as a birth and childhood (Genesis), the Exodus as the child leaving the nest, Leveticus as education... each book of the Torah as stages of life.

Both trees are important, but I feel from my own studies that ToL, by the fact it has predominance in the garden, as being the primary (initial) focus for starting the climb.

Altho, after writing this I felt it is important to add that there is no "starting point" with the Kabbalah, and should you choose to climb the ToKGE first--that is perfectly fine too.

I don't necessarily want to add to the bashing that you feel that is predominant on this thread, but I kind of agree with posters like cartenz. My personal slant is different, though. I feel that Crowley's various systems of magick had meaning, but mostly only for him personally. I also feel that the inherent meaning in what he wrote about was very murky, even for him. I think that it's a tangled web of reality that Crowley may not even have readily understood unless he was reviewing his notes.

I personally think that methods of achieving the truth should be much more simple. And I'm sure that
there are tons of people who disagree with me about my first points. I don't think that you should fall head over heels for something just because one of your idols was such a proponent of it. I feel that the fact that you don't understand it yourself says a lot.

I also want to add that Hermetic Kabbalah (which Crowley was influenced by), is much different than the standard Kabbalah and subsequently the Orthodox Judaism that you were originally influenced by. I feel that this is something you need to be aware of.

Note: I may be wrong about these things since I am no expert on these topics. I'm just writing about what I remember reading in certain books I had about magick and different websites like Wikipedia.

pandersway
reply to post by TheJourney

 

I thought A. Crowley was the devil incarnate or so he proclaimed. Whether or not you believe in this sort of thing, I thought he killed many young people through sacrifice. Why would anyone want to be indulging in his perverse affairs? A very sick and evil man.

Feel like I should chime in to defend my namesake and give the bums rush to at least this myth, which likely had Crowley splitting a gut. When he talked about his lifelong habit of killing children he meant he masturbated, and thus all the potential children died. And he was right, biologically, as each one of us is soooooo lucky to have been born since the sperm we swam alongside all died and only we came through that competition alive.

He proclaimed many things, and called himself many things, to give society an envelope push on a daily basis. The staid Victorian society of England, and the uptight puritan thought-speak in America, all came under Crowley's humour and satire. He played with acceptance limits of people around him. As for his inner-circle of students (children of the abyss), his magick women (aye, Pan and Puffery hail magick women!), and folks like Robert Anton Wilson who understood the humour as well as the serious data upload that Crowley shared with every one of his books (and life's strolls when he was alive), they knew they were in the presence - both literal and in his writings - of a wise fun-filled fellow well met.

reply to post by Aleister


He definitely pushed the envelope. That's for sure.