What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

wildtimes

Are you a fatalist? Hopeless? Oh well, I guess we'll figure it out as we all go along on this ride.

I don't know about Eryiedes, But I am a hopeless fatalist - the best of all possible worlds!

wildtimes

Oh right.. being uncomfy with thinking or discovering one's faith is unfounded.

I sometimes think so far out of the box that I get paper cuts from the flaps. I have an odd notion that NO faiths are "unfounded", they are but different expressions or facets of the One faith, designed to appeal to different types of folks at different times. we run into trouble when folks find their facet of faith somehow inadequate, and feel a need to add their own little mortal bit to it to flesh it out. Then, we get things like stonings in Islamic countries, when stoning is not prescribed by Islam itself, but is a cultural aberration in some of the cultures that Islam has found itself in, which then gets merged into the faith, making it something other than what it started out as. We get things like the European cultural prosecution of the Crusades, when violent crusade was nowhere to be found in the original Christianity.

These things sometimes become so entrenched in the faith that they get confused with actually being the faith, when they are not. THEN people can point the finger and say "my faith is superior to YOUR faith because my culture kills in a much more civilized way", and things of that sort.

On the matter of NDE's, I've studied up on them a bit over time, and found that a similar figure appears in many of them, and it is described in a similar way. Shi'ite Muslims interpret it as "the Imam", Christians interpret it as "Christ", Buddhists interpret it as "Buddha" and so on and so forth, but I've yet to find a case where it actually identified ITSELF to them - it just let them assume what they would. In keeping with my thoughts in the first paragraph above, I believe it is the same figure in each case, but presented in a way that the experiencer is comfortable with, based upon their own background and beliefs.

I think when Divinity chooses to contact us, for whatever reason, then it does so in a way that is calculated to help us relate to IT - otherwise, the contact would be a useless exercise. I may be right, or I may be wrong, but I'm almost certain to get flamed for it as a "damndable relativist". I have been before, and doubtless will be again. Meh. One day, I suppose, we'll all find out the truth of the matter. They only flame me because my religious ideas don't always merge with their cultural preconceptions. It makes them uncomfortable, which tells me I'm on the right track.

Only people uncertain of their faith can be made uncomfortable like that. Only uncertainty allows for the perception of a threat to their religion. If they are sure of themselves, no threat is possible - they are secure in their religion... and it doesn't matter if they are securely right or securely wrong - they are SECURE in their faith.

No matter what I believe, it can in no way be a threat to YOUR god, if it is truly a god.

I have a question for OpB:
Have you read much about NDEs? I think they are VERY helpful in dealing with grief. Your daughter is in the arms of ethereal love. Don't doubt it.

OpB is asleep right now, so I'll say this about that: she has had an NDE. She knows our daughter is in the arms of love, as she has seen it herself. Her grief stems from the mortal separation from Baby Girl - not an uncertainty as to Baby Girl's present whereabouts or condition.

After she knew it was coming, but before she died, Baby Girl had misgivings. She was afraid she wasn't "good enough" to make it to heaven. My take on that was that she WAS, and my reasoning is that people who are not don't even worry abut it. Worrying about it is itself a sign that you are on the right track. Why worry if you'll get to heaven if you don't belong there to begin with? Worrying about it shows that God is working on your heart, that you are His, and as a God, I seriously doubt he would allow his will to be thwarted by a trivial mistake here or there. How embarrassing would it be to be a God beaten by a mere mortal at his own game, and unintentionally and unwillingly at that?

She was also talking to people(?) that no one else could hear, and seeing people(?) that no one else could see right near the end. That's fairly common, but I'll always wonder who it was and what was said.

wildtimes
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

Okay, thanks for clarifying. Peace. (Although, for the record, I believe we are ALL part of the Holy Family - ALL connected, and manifestations of the Divine...)

Does that work?

Peace be yours. How's that?

I'm floundering here. Just know that I care, and feel helpless to offer anything but words here.

edit on 10/27/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

"As-salaam alaykum" - may peace be upon you - "peace be yours" is close enough.

"wa alaykum as-salaaam" - and upon you, peace.

Just a more formal way of saying the more flippant and colloquial "peace out, yo!"

OB: when you get this far in the thread, ana hibbeek, zhojati jamilla.

That's almost all the Arabic I can recall that won't get my butt kicked, or isn't otherwise unfit for a public forum. The rest is "azeroh" means blue, and I can count my toes, but not my fingers AND my toes!

This got lost in the long line of posts ...
Gotta make sure that Logical sees I answered his accusations ...

reply to post by logical7


Who is more likely to be telling the truth ... hmmmm ...
Side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad ...


Jesus claimed to have 'come down from Heaven' and that he predated Abraham. He also claimed the title 'I AM' which the Jews knew was the title of God Himself.
Muhammad claimed to have heavenly visions.

Jesus backed up his claims with healing miracles. He caused the lame to walk; the blind to see; the deaf to hear; He rose the dead back to life; He rose Himself from the dead.
Muhammad backed up his claims with death. Instead of healing people, he had them slaughtered.

Jesus was poor and had 'no place to lay his head'.
Muhammad was a caravan thief.

Jesus apostles lived peacefully and were killed for preaching the peaceful teachings of Jesus.
Muhammads followers slaughtered people and murdered those who spoke against Muhammad.
Muhammad gave his approval of this.

Jesus - spoke well of women and said that one man and one woman marry, becoming 'one'.
Muhammad - women were 1/2 as smart as men (Hadith 3:826; 2:541), that the majority in hell will be women (Had. 1:28,301; 2:161; 7:124), and that women could be mortgaged and should be beaten at will.

Jesus - prayer is simple and unadorned from the heart (Matt: 6:5-13)
Muhammad - 488 - passing in front of a praying person annuls his prayer; 690 - if the prayer rows aren't straight, the prayer is not good 717 - if you look up during prayer, you'll lose your eyesight (Bukhari, Vol. 1)

Jesus - "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Brings conversion.
Muhammad - "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5) Brings death.

Jesus gave his life for others.
Muhammad took the lives of others.

Jesus owned no slaves.
Muhammad owned slaves.

Christ - "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26)
Muhammad - "Convert or die!"

Jesus never married but instead dedicated His life to the message of God.
Muhammad had at least 13 'wives' and was obsessed with sex. His teachings reek of misogyny.

Jesus taught forgiveness “forgive those who trespass against you.” (Matthew 6:10-15)
Muhammad taught to avenge trespasses against your honor, family or religion.
And Muhammad ordered/rewarded the murder of those who he considered enemies.

Jesus - Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 5:14)
Muhammad - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads
and strike off every fingertip of them." "Allah" (Qur'an 8:12)

Jesus taught - God loves everyone. (John 3:16)
Muhammad taught - Allah hates those who don't accept Islam. (Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38)

Jesus last words - "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Muhammads last words - "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets." Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427

Jesus taught - let him without sin cast the first stone. (John 8:7)
Muhammad taught - Stone women for adultery (not sure what the man's punishment is)

Jesus - Chastised anyone attempting to defend him with force. (John 18:10-12)
Muhammad - Demanded the protection of armed bodyguards, even in a house of worship (Qur'an 4:102)

Jesus was crucified.
Muhammad advocated crucifying others (Qur'an 5:33, Muslim 16:4131)

Jesus died for others.
Muhammad had others die for him.

Jesus died for us and rose from the dead.
Muhammad died and rotted in the grave.

Christian afterlife - to be with God forever and live like the angels. Spiritual.
Muslim afterlife - one big orgy of the senses and copulation with 'virgins' forever. Organic.

Comparison between Jesus and Muhammad
Jesus vs Muhammad
Another Comparison Jesus and Muhammad
Mohammad vs Christ
Differences between Jesus and Muhammad

reply to post by FlyersFan


Hey FF,
Your post is nothing but negative evangelism.
Things you say about Muhammad pbuh are only believed by very typical set of people (ignorant or islam haters) If you are the former then reading a biography would do much help and if you are the later then nobody can help you till you decide to change yourself.
A carefully crafted comparison making one individual look good and another bad is very much seen on any anti-islamic site and you have likely been inspired from one.

If you are trying to show me the "reality" of Prophet Muhammad pbuh then i can tell you that i have read much more about him by both muslim scholars and historians like Armstrong and they disagree with your hateful opinions.
Lets see what some famous people/experts/historians had to say about Prophet Muhammad.

Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4: "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of
the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty
Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."

Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918 “It was the first religion that preached and practiced
democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “

Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet “He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...”

George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936. “I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti– Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”

M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924 "...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam
in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble."

reply to post by nenothtu


I hope you and OpB will accept my sentiments in regard to your loss. My personal opinion of religion aside, I am glad it has helped to smooth the ragged edges of your torn hearts.

logical7
Your post is nothing but negative evangelism.

No ... it's a factual side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad.

Things you say about Muhammad pbuh are only believed by very typical set of people (ignorant or islam haters)

You are in denial. And indoctrinated.

You said which is more believable ... Jesus or Muhammad? The side by side comparison shows that, without a doubt, Jesus is MUCH more believable and worthy of listening to.

Jesus came from Heaven to Earth to cure and save.
Muhammad just caused death.

The side by side is undeniable ... well ...except to the indoctrinated (or the ignorant .. as you say).

reply to post by FlyersFan


I forgot what it's called...but the biggest problem in Islam is this thing where if two verses directly contradict each other, the more recent will be taken as the supreme authority. Maybe someone can help me out with that, but that's the reason Islam is so violent. The last divine messages Muhammad relayed were directives which reflect the current state of Islam.

FlyersFan

logical7
Your post is nothing but negative evangelism.

No ... it's a factual side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad.

Things you say about Muhammad pbuh are only believed by very typical set of people (ignorant or islam haters)

You are in denial. And indoctrinated.

You said which is more believable ... Jesus or Muhammad? The side by side comparison shows that, without a doubt, Jesus is MUCH more believable and worthy of listening to.

Jesus came from Heaven to Earth to cure and save.
Muhammad just caused death.

The side by side is undeniable ... well ...except to the indoctrinated (or the ignorant .. as you say).

using the words "fact","factual" does not automatically make it so.

The problem to your comparison is twofold.

1) it cannot be proved that Jesus pbuh actually said all those things.
Here is what a bible scholar has to say. Bart Ehrman

The earliest gospel, “Mark,” was
written around 65-70 AD, up to 40
years removed from the events it
describes Matthew and Luke were written 15
years on top of that, and
severely plagiarize Mark, rendering
them unusable as independent
corroborating evidence The authors of the gospels were
not eyewitness accounts; they are
anonymous documents whose titles
(and disciple associations) were
ascribed decades after their writing The gospels themselves have
incredibly awful contradictions
between them, which further
implicates them as bad sources for
information

this that you told about Muhammad pbuh can be proven false as i did by pointing what historians and thinkers have to say about him and the picture you tried to paint is only propogated and believed by people who have an agenda or malice towards Islam because a simple open minded enquiry into it would reveal the truth to anyone who really WANTS it. You obviously are very happy with your views because questioning them would make the op applicable to you and this denial to actually research unbiasedly is very understandable.
There is no special status to any religious follower be it a jew, christian or a muslim. Anyone who worships God Alone and submits to Him is on the Truth. Jesus pbuh was on the Truth but i cannot say that for people who think they are followers of Jesus pbuh but actually follow the creed that the church wished them to follow.

reply to post by logical7


It's funny because Islam, Judaism and Christianity all share the same root religion. It's like watching kids fight over who daddy loves more.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I forgot what it's called...but the biggest problem in Islam is this thing where if two verses directly contradict each other, the more recent will be taken as the supreme authority.

Yup.

Abrogation.

I was just looking at the MIT free online course on RELIGION, ETHNICITY, THE NATION. It's an outline for the session of the class, and talks about how religions develop and change, and how important it is to NOT think that all cultures that practice the "same" religion do so in the "same way."

Check it out!!

reply to post by logical7

You obviously are very happy with your views because questioning them would make the op applicable to you and this denial to actually research unbiasedly is very understandable.

You quoting Bart Ehrman is the same as others quoting "answeringIslam" or Wafa Sultan. LOL

Try looking at Christian Apologetics websites; that's where you'll find the same sort of thing that you do to promote Islam, but coming from Christian believers.

reply to post by logical7

Things you say about Muhammad pbuh are only believed by very typical set of people (ignorant or islam haters) If you are the former then reading a biography would do much help and if you are the later then nobody can help you till you decide to change yourself.

And the things you say about "the West" are only believed by a very typical set of people (ignorant or West-haters).

Lord knows you have an enormous number of "westerners" right here on ATS that WOULD enlighten you, but you just keep labelling us all as depraved, without morals, Godless, and obsessed with "material things."

IT IS NOT TRUE. But, until you decide to change yourself, there's no help for it.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

You obviously are very happy with your views because questioning them would make the op applicable to you and this denial to actually research unbiasedly is very understandable.

You quoting Bart Ehrman is the same as others quoting "answeringIslam" or Wafa Sultan. LOL

Try looking at Christian Apologetics websites; that's where you'll find the same sort of thing that you do to promote Islam, but coming from Christian believers.

i don't think wafa sultan is any scholar.
But thats what i demand especially from FF, CONSISTENT STANDARDS. if historians are to be relied on then examine both faiths using the same set of acceptable evidences. Not use apologetics for our own and critics for the other's faith.

logical7
using the words "fact","factual" does not automatically make it so.

Tiresome .... I posted facts.
No amount of you saying ... 'your saying fact doesnt make it so' .. changed that I did indeed post FACTS.

Jesus came from Heaven in peace.
Muhammad rose in power in a bloodbath.
Jesus gave his life for others. Muhammad took the lives of people.
Jesus said forgive. Muhammad said ... go kill them.

it cannot be proved that Jesus pbuh actually said all those things.

1 - For every so called scripture scholar who says what you want to try to debunk the gospels ... I can find dozens who will state that the gospels were eyewitness testimony written either by the eyewitness OR by people who got the history direct from the eyewitness.

2 - Muhammad actually DID say all those disgusting things that I quoted.

3 - You actually believe the fictional bunk that was manufactured by Muhammad almost 700 years after the events of Jesus ... but you don't believe the actual eyewitness accounts that were written either by the eyewitness themselves or by people who heard the accounts from eyewitness. And you think that makes sense??? WOW.

the picture you tried to paint is only propogated and believed by people who have an agenda or malice towards Islam

No dude. It's very simple .... A side by side comparison of Muhammad next to the Christ.

Christ = peace and love of God and neighbor, and healings ... claims backed by MIRACLES.
Muhammad = sex and murder and lots of contradictions.

Christ = forgive the woman caught in adultry, obtain her conversion.
Muhammad = misogynistic sex obsessed 'male justice' .. beat and kill women.

Side by side. Very simple. Using their own words.

YOU asked why believe Jesus when supposedly Muhammads story made sense. I showed that Muhammads story isn't holy and doesn't make sense at all when compared to THE CHRIST. Very simple. And no amount of you digging up a handful of fools who drool over Muhammad will change the basic and simple comparison between the two.

Muhammad isn't fit to untie the sandals of Jesus.

logical7
especially from FF, CONSISTENT STANDARDS.

CONSISTENT STANDARDS ..... USE THEIR OWN WORDS.
It doesn't get any more consistent then that.
How about you go right to the source and give it a try.

AGAIN - Debunk these ... go ahead .... these will get you started ..

Jesus backed up his claims with healing miracles. He caused the lame to walk; the blind to see; the deaf to hear; He rose the dead back to life; He rose Himself from the dead.
Muhammad backed up his claims with death. Instead of healing people, he had them slaughtered.

Jesus - spoke well of women and said that one man and one woman marry, becoming 'one'.
Muhammad - women were 1/2 as smart as men (Hadith 3:826; 2:541), that the majority in hell will be women (Had. 1:28,301; 2:161; 7:124), and that women could be mortgaged and should be beaten at will.

Jesus - "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Brings conversion.
Muhammad - "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5) Brings death.

To answer your own question .... THESE and the other examples are the reasons why it's MUCH easier to believe what Jesus said over what Muhammad said.

No ... it's a factual side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad.

This is a fallacy.
There are NO facts which support the existance of Jesus.

"This pair of Mickey Mouse ears from Disneyland proves that all animated mice are real."

See?
I can do that too.
Doesn't mean it STILL isn't crazy talk.
You wants facts?
Fine use facts.
You want to use scripture for facts?
You've not a leg to stand on.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by Eryiedes


1 - You want to think Muhammad and Jesus are fairy tales ... go ahead. Logical and I do not.
2 - This discussion is an ongoing discussion between logical and myself.
3 - I told you ... I"m done with you. Butt out.
ETA .. bad attitude .. ignoring ...

reply to post by FlyersFan


No offence ma'am, but this is an "open thread" and anyone is encouraged to join.
Keeping this in mind, as long posters will ignore the OP topic and make arguements based upon faulty premises, I will be there to point out exactly where you are wrong.
This is what "freedom of speech" means whether you like it or not.

-Amitaba-

reply to post by logical7

So Logical ....back to the question posed by the author of this thread ...
Why are you so afraid of the words that Muhammad himself said?
Why won't you admit that he said them?
Is indoctrination more important to you than facts?
It's a fact that he said them and that your religion is based on them.
So why avoid his words?