Cybernetics tells us Conscious Energy must exist

reply to post by neoholographic



Ok.. I'll play.
So how do you explain the growing number of people in the world? Are you saying a massive amount of consious energy/ users is/are lined up waiting to get a body? And if so.. you still have a hard time explaining what the users are and where they come from.

There is no consious energy before the sperm and egg melt, or are you saying that each cell has it and that users are combined when melting?

If you are saying that the user enters the body when the brain is developed enough, then how does this happen? and how does an energy without a brain to reason with know where and when to enter?

Its always been ddifficult explaining souls. And that is what you have renamed in this thread. Personally I dont believe in that. You need a brain to think or reason...... So a soul is useless and not needed, therefor does not exist.

WHAT ARE YOU?

Keep in mind that everything you think how you think it and the things you do is all made up of patterns. Created by memories and experiences. So your soul is an string of events that your genetic makeup has arranged and made patterns and structures of. Thats all....

reply to post by neoholographic



Nah.. you are starting in the wrong end.
The machines come pre built. We do not. Think of a baby as a blank program where the design and some functions come pre built (instinct).But the program wont run if you dont have any more info. As we go along we add zeros and ones 00010010011100. Then we connect the parts to say that if the first part of code happens then run 01010011001010. If we dont have a second code then events that follow around us will make us interpet and write that code. We're software always running and writing our own code.. we are not users. And the body is our hardware

So if we created a learning software, then we would name it AI artificial intelligence. Per definition this would, like us, have the characteristics of what we call a soul. If we gave it a body it would be the same as us....

.... Pics or it didn't happen.

reply to post by br0ker


It's the "ghost in the machine" thing. The fact is is you can account for everything we experience with neurology and neurochemistry. Even so, I'm not opposed to the "ghost in the machine".

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


This makes no sense. There's ZERO evidence that Consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain. Actually, this makes no sense but many in science start with this paradigm and they put consciousness in the prison of their belief system so to speak.

How does the material brain recall specific memories at will? How does the material brain know which specific memories I wish to recall? How does the material brain know the difference between a memory from the Army or a memory from a vacation?

I think someone earlier made the crazy statement, that you don't know the difference between memories, you just think you know. Again, these are the silly lengths people go to in order to fit consciousness into the paradigm that consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain.

At the end of the day, the human body is a machine that needs a User (Conscious Energy). It's just like the TV needs a User, your computer needs a User, the store across the street needs a User.

When I go to the store, how does the material brain know which store I want to go to? How does the material brain know the difference between the stores I want to go to?

The Human body needs a User just like any other machine.

reply to post by AlliumIslelily


Good points:

The brain could be the medium between through which the "user" communicates to the body, to communicate to the external world. Tampering with the brain would only serve to tamper with the connection between the "user" and their body.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing to date that scientifically supports one idea over the other. (The two ideas being 1: the user is separate from the brain and 2: the user is the brain)

There's zero evidence that consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain. Sadly, most scientist say that consciousness isn't well understood in one breathe and in the next breathe they will say but consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain.

So essentially, consciousness is stuck in the prison of this paradigm. If you had equal research dollars looking into consciousness as fundamental to reality and it exists in all things or research into the Quantum Mind, we would know more about consciousness in a year or two than we have learned about the nature of consciousness over the last 50 years.

reply to post by neoholographic


I would like to try and see you think of how it could be the other way, put at least some effort into doing some critical thinking about how life can exist without your so called specific conscious energy (soul). That is the best way to propose an argument, so I can see that you at least tried to debunk your claims and arent just restricting yourself to one point of view because of emotional and other biased reasons, that you care about the truth, and not just your opinions, feelings and wishes.

reply to post by neoholographic

This makes no sense. There's ZERO evidence that Consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain. Actually, this makes no sense but many in science start with this paradigm and they put consciousness in the prison of their belief system so to speak.

What is "your" definition of consciousness? Is there any evidence that consciousness exists outside of the material brain? The brain produces EMF. Do you consider that material?

How does the material brain recall specific memories at will? How does the material brain know which specific memories I wish to recall? How does the material brain know the difference between a memory from the Army or a memory from a vacation?

How do you know it's at will? I have random thoughts and random memories all day. The only time it's not random is when someone asks me to remember something and then I do my best to recall that info. Memory is very elusive and fuzzy. Memories morph and change over time. There are times I can't remember names or past even past events that someone else has a clear memory of.

How would you explain brain damaged people that can't remember anything? How do you explain false memories? Amnesia?

Sometimes I confuse different events and really have to struggle with reference points to place

Is there a structure in the brain that physically encodes memories? Yeah probably. The human brain is so complex and your question is very simplistic.

Here is link about memory news.harvard.edu...

I think someone earlier made the crazy statement, that you don't know the difference between memories, you just think you know. Again, these are the silly lengths people go to in order to fit consciousness into the paradigm that consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain.

There are many times I am certain of a memory and it turns out to be false. If you claim that you can recall everything with 100% accuracy, you are lying. We have this thing called "continuity" that our minds strive to maintain even if it has to make stuff up to do it. I don't care to fit any paradigm but these things are observable. I'm not opposed to the idea that there is something other than the material brain but I don't think "conscious memory" is the best example to get you there. Dreams are much better.

At the end of the day, the human body is a machine that needs a User (Conscious Energy). It's just like the TV needs a User, your computer needs a User, the store across the street needs a User.

I don't think this is the best example and it is overly simplistic considering the complexity we are talking about. I'm not opposed to what you are trying to say though. Our living bodies generate their own energy and have billions of neurons interacting in a very complex way. TVs do not.

When I go to the store, how does the material brain know which store I want to go to? How does the material brain know the difference between the stores I want to go to?

There is this thing called "advertising" that's seems to be pretty effective at getting people to go to certain stores. Retarded people don't know which store to go to. Are they not conscious?

The Human body needs a User just like any other machine

Maybe. but the "user" you are trying to describe seems to be the brain. So what is this "user"? Is it an energy consisting of free will and memory? If so, what evidence do you have of its existence?

So what happens when the conscious realizes that it's firstly just the electricity/ energy running the system and then epiphany becomes theophany. It comes to the only logical conclusion; , IT is the User. The God is immersed in the game he is playing.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


This is the perfect example of someone stuck inside a paradigm. You said:

How do you know it's at will? I have random thoughts and random memories all day. The only time it's not random is when someone asks me to remember something and then I do my best to recall that info. Memory is very elusive and fuzzy. Memories morph and change over time. There are times I can't remember names or past even past events that someone else has a clear memory of.

This is just funny! You can't even be honest in a conversation and this is because you're stuck in the paradigm that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain when there's zero evidence to support this notion.

You can't even be honest about memory recall. Of course you know that we can recall specific memories at will yet you act like there's nothing but random, fuzzy memories in your head. This is because in order to fit the paradigm, you can't even accept reality.

I just recalled a specific memory from the Army.

I just recalled a specific memory from a family reunion.

I just recalled a specific memory from little league baseball.

I just recalled a specific memory from when I was 4 and all the kids my mother would babysit going to school.

I just recalled a memory from my Prom.

I just recalled a specific memory of my 9th grade graduation.

I just recalled a specific memory when I first went swimming.

I just recalled a specific memory when I went to the library and checked out a specific book.

I can go on and on. In order for us to have an honest conversation about these things we first have to be able to accept the truth.

Yes, we can recall specific memories at will and there's no need to play dumb about it.

The fact is we can recall specific memories at will, know the difference between these memories and also know how we felt about these memories. This is the User interacting with the machine.

The material brain can store memories just like a computer can store information. It's the User that recalls these specific memories at will.

br0ker
reply to post by neoholographic

 

Ok.. I'll play.
So how do you explain the growing number of people in the world? Are you saying a massive amount of consious energy/ users is/are lined up waiting to get a body? And if so.. you still have a hard time explaining what the users are and where they come from.

There is no consious energy before the sperm and egg melt, or are you saying that each cell has it and that users are combined when melting?

If you are saying that the user enters the body when the brain is developed enough, then how does this happen? and how does an energy without a brain to reason with know where and when to enter?

Its always been ddifficult explaining souls. And that is what you have renamed in this thread. Personally I dont believe in that. You need a brain to think or reason...... So a soul is useless and not needed, therefor does not exist.

WHAT ARE YOU?

Keep in mind that everything you think how you think it and the things you do is all made up of patterns. Created by memories and experiences. So your soul is an string of events that your genetic makeup has arranged and made patterns and structures of. Thats all....

edit on 7-10-2013 by br0ker because: (no reason given)

the soul enters the body with the babies first breath and leaves with its last. I think it weighs about 21 grams.

reply to post by winofiend


So when your brain and body are cloned, do you actually think you will be in control of both of these?

Which body will you see and remember from?

At what point does a carbon copy of a body and brain translate to the you that experiences things? To say that you could resurrect Abraham Lincoln by cloning him, well to outsiders he'd be resurrect, but what about old Abe?

My point is that since your stance on death is that you cut short and cease to exist is based on the idea brain and its circuits of neurons is all you are, then would you mind being tested in a black budget experiment when you are cloned and the "original" is killed and the clone is released back to your family? Isn't that tragic?
THINK ABOUT IT.

You would have lost your soul.

snip - double post

reply to post by neoholographic

This is just funny! You can't even be honest in a conversation and this is because you're stuck in the paradigm that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain when there's zero evidence to support this notion.

I'm not interested in any paradigm and I'm not entirely convinced that consciousness is an " emergent property" of the brain. I don't even know how you are defining "consciousness". You just seem to be throwing out a term without really defining what you mean. I asked if it is a energy that has free will and memory.

You can't even be honest about memory recall. Of course you know that we can recall specific memories at will yet you act like there's nothing but random, fuzzy memories in your head. This is because in order to fit the paradigm, you can't even accept reality.

I gave examples of random fuzzy memories. How does that fit in with your notion? You are giving examples of memories that are not so fuzzy but how do you know if they aren't and how do you know they are called by will? Please explain without the "of course you know" rhetoric because I don't know. How do you know that those experiences actually happened? False memories do occur.

I can go on and on. In order for us to have an honest conversation about these things we first have to be able to accept the truth.

Who's truth? What you mean is that I have to agree with you and accept what you are saying without question. So I am asking you how you know that you are calling these memories at will? Explain what you mean by that because I really don't know what you mean because from my introspection, every memory I have seems to be random or caused by something else. Be honest so we can have an honest conversation.

Yes, we can recall specific memories at will and there's no need to play dumb about it.

Explain what you mean. How do you know the difference between a random memory and a memory that was recalled from free will? It's not playing dumb because I really don't know. Playing dumb is playing the "of course you know" game. I can't explain it because I don't know. You do, so explain it to me. Thanks.

The fact is we can recall specific memories at will, know the difference between these memories and also know how we felt about these memories. This is the User interacting with the machine.

So is this something you just thought up. Do you know of any scientific papers on memory or neurology or anything at all about the subject that you are trying to dismantle?

The material brain can store memories just like a computer can store information. It's the User that recalls these specific memories at will.

"material brain" memory is nothing like computer memory. I provided some links earlier. Maybe read them. I'm not even sure we know how the brain stores memory.

Perhaps this "user" is magnetic field energy generated by the brain and the feeling of free will is just an illusion.

reply to post by neoholographic


So in a nutshell, your argument is: "there is free will because there is free will and of course we all know that so let's be honest because there is no other way think accept for the way I do"

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


Again, this whole soliloquy is nonsense. It just shows exactly what I'm saying. The last thing you want to admit is that we can recall specific memories at will because it doesn't fit your paradigm. The material brain can't do this. The material brain doesn't know the difference between a memory from the Army or a memory from little league baseball. The User knows. You said:

I gave examples of random fuzzy memories. How does that fit in with your notion? You are giving examples of memories that are not so fuzzy but how do you know if they aren't and how do you know they are called by will? Please explain without the "of course you know" rhetoric because I don't know. How do you know that those experiences actually happened? False memories do occur.

Yes, these memories are called at will.

When I want to recall a specific memory about driving to the store yesterday, I recall that specific memory at will.

When I want to recall a trip to Vegas for a Tyson fight, I recall that specific memory at will.

When I want to recall a specific memory from 6th grade graduation, I recall that specific memory at will.

It's for others who are trapped inside the paradigm that consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain to explain how the material brain knows which memories I wish to recall. How does the material brain know the difference between these memories?

The fact is we know which part of the brain shows activity during memory recall. Just like we know which parts of the remote show activity when you're changing the channel on the TV. The body is a machine that's operated by a User. The brain stores these memories and the User can recall specific memories at will.

Of course this is a problem for those stuck in a paradigm that consciousness emerges from the material brain. This is because the material brain doesn't tell the material brain which specific memories you wish to recall. It doesn't know but it has the machinery to recall these specific memories when the User wants a specific memory recalled.

Of course you need 1 of two things. A convoluted explanation, which there isn't one or you just play dumb as evidenced by your post.

neoholographic
Cybernetics tells us that the human body is a machine. It's a machine that has specific functions. These functions need a User(Conscious Energy) in order for things like self awareness, self image, recall of specific memories at will and more to occur.

Cybernetics say no such thing. You haven't linked to anything to support your idea.

I am offended by your usurpation of Norbert Wiener's 1948 book "Cybernetics".

I have my own thoughts aobut will/intention (what you call Conscious Energy).

Cybernetics and or Systems Theory have no real opion on that issue.

There are a few modern books on Systems Theory notibly by Ervin Lazlo in his "Science and the Akashic Field that delve into the possibilies of interaction with fields and systems of fields.

Yes there is a hypothes about MIND being an EMERGENT PROPERTY of BRAIN. And certainly it plays a part but to say that Cybernetics tells us...yadda, yadda... is misrespresentation.

READ THE MATERIAL.

Having a goal/organizing principal does not, in any way, imply intent or conscious action; in the normal course of biological systems the goal is mearly survival and is strickly hard-wired. (See Frank Herberts Dune for a discussion being human animals and actualized humans). A man made system implies intent in the designer not intent from the system.

Cybernetics is about command and control: www.asc-cybernetics.org...

There are many definitions of cybernetics and many individuals who have influenced the direction of cybernetics. Cybernetics takes as its domain the design or discovery and application of principles of regulation and communication. Cybernetics treats not things but ways of behaving. It does not ask "what is this thing?" but "what does it do?" and "what can it do?" Because numerous systems in the living, social and technological world may be understood in this way, cybernetics cuts across many traditional disciplinary boundaries. The concepts which cyberneticians develop thus form a metadisciplinary language through which we may better understand and modify our world.

reply to post by FyreByrd


The definition you posted supports everything that I'm saying. You should have tried to understand the post before you responded.

Cybernetics has been applied to many different disciplines. Whether it's biology, computer science or psychology. A good book to read is Psycho Cybernetics written by Maxwell Maltz.

In Psycho Cybernetics Maltz talks about the self image and how we can control our self image and change our lives. Many people have read this book and applied it to their life.

Who can control the self image? THE USER

Who can recall specific memories at will? THE USER

Who knows the difference between these specific memories? THE USER

So yes, Cybernetics in the context of biology, computer science and psychology supports what I'm saying.

You can look here and see some of the other disciplines that incorporate Cybernetics.

Cybernetics

The Strange Quark is virtual, like all virtual particles the blink in and out of reality (as we understand it).

The Strange Quark is also integral to the structure of every proton, in every atom (so much so, the atom would collapse structurally without the strange quark).

As a manner in general Virtual Particles are more often than not considered random events. But, in this particular case we have an event with respect to the Strange Quarks, that really could be understood as a non-random event.

Another question is where does the Virtual Strange Quark go????

We can pretend that consciousness can be understood by conservative science any time soon. With respect to recent history, that is pretty much a joke.

Any thoughts?

neoholographic
reply to post by ZetaRediculian

 

Again, this whole soliloquy is nonsense. It just shows exactly what I'm saying. The last thing you want to admit is that we can recall specific memories at will because it doesn't fit your paradigm.

I really don't have a paradigm. You do. I'm just trying to understand what you are talking about. You can't define what I asked. In order for me to admit to something, you have to clearly define what it is you are saying. I have no idea how you can tell the difference between a real memory, a false memory, a random memory or one generated from will. You do. So lets have it already.

The material brain can't do this. The material brain doesn't know the difference between a memory from the Army or a memory from little league baseball. The User knows.

So you are making a claim with nothing to back it up. Since you stated emphatically that there is "no evidence that consciousness emerges from Thea material brain" how about you provide some evidence that there is something akin to a "user" that has free will and is separate from the brain. Thanks.

Yes, these memories are called at will.

So you are saying there is no such thing as random memories? and if I don't wish to recall something, I don't? And False memories don't exist? And I don't need reminders to remember things? Please clarify. Thanks

When I want to recall a specific memory about driving to the store yesterday, I recall that specific memory at will.

Awesome. Explain how you know it was a real memory and that your will called it. 'Just because' is not an answer.

When I want to recall a trip to Vegas for a Tyson fight, I recall that specific memory at will.

Remember when Tyson bit Holyfields ear off because Hollyfield was kicking his but again? Tyson did that because he couldn't box against someone who knew how. In other words, 'just because'.

When I want to recall a specific memory from 6th grade graduation, I recall that specific memory at will.

Prove it.

It's for others who are trapped inside the paradigm that consciousness is an emergent property of the material brain to explain how the material brain knows which memories I wish to recall.

As it is for people who are trapped inside this paradigm of yours to explain how it is not.

How does the material brain know the difference between these memories?

Good question. Maybe read about it and if you find a good link, share it. Thanks.

The fact is we know which part of the brain shows activity during memory recall. Just like we know which parts of the remote show activity when you're changing the channel on the TV. The body is a machine that's operated by a User. The brain stores these memories and the User can recall specific memories at will.

The brain really sucks at storing memories. You cant be sure what you are recalling. Everyone knows that. That's why people write things down and take pictures. That's the reason we have the scientific method and the reason we have such a larger amount of information about how the brain functions. Maybe become familiar with some of that.

Of course this is a problem for those stuck in a paradigm that consciousness emerges from the material brain. This is because the material brain doesn't tell the material brain which specific memories you wish to recall. It doesn't know but it has the machinery to recall these specific memories when the User wants a specific memory recalled.

The problem is that most people who know the slightest thing about brain function know that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Of course you need 1 of two things. A convoluted explanation, which there isn't one or you just play dumb as evidenced by your post.

So you just spouted off absolutely nothing again. Not one shread of evidence for any of your claims. Is there any evidence that consciousness exists outside of the material brain? Saying that I honestly don't know how to tell if the memories I have are due to randomness or free will is not playing dumb.

This is YOUR claim, not mine. I am asking YOU to explain how you know. If you can't explain it, then just admit to it.

Of course saying "I don't know" is playing dumb now so you have to pretend its common knowledge that we have free will and just make stuff up to fit your paradigm. Nothing you have stated about brain function is a fact. It's just randomly generated nonsense you thought up while you were popping.