I have some interesting questions for those who believe Yahweh (the god of the old testament) is the

1) If Yahweh is The Devil in disguise, who was "The Serpent" that Yahweh was mad at?

2) If Yahweh is The Devil, then aren't his angels Archangel Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Metatron, etc. really fallen angels?

3) And if "Michael" is the fallen angel, doesn't that mean that his opposite Lucifer is not?

4) Why did Jesus reference "Moses" and "The Law" if Yahweh is the devil? Why did he go to "the synagogue"?

reply to post by arpgme

Read some of "undo's" posts on this topic. You'll find them quite interesting.

Yahweh = Enlil
Devil = Enki

It isn't that Yahweh is the devil in disguise. It's that Enlil and Enki's roles were reversed. Enlil made Enki out to be the bad guy. Instead, it was the other way around. Or so the story goes, anyway.

reply to post by arpgme


I've done a bit of research on these types of questions myself, including reading many of the apocrypha books, Gnostic texts and other psuedepigrapha that were omitted from the "western accepted" Bible (though some of these writings were maintained in the Ethiopic Bible).

What I found is that, when you get down to "original source" material such as the grimoires (Keys of Solomon, Cephar Raziel, First Book of Holy Magic, Abramelin the Mage, etc), there is a great deal of overlap between the names of angels and names of demons. At certain points I found their names (and "polarization") to be interchangeable.

There are some theoris, of which I do not necessarily subscribe but find interesting nonetheless, that suggest YWHW failed to allow the progess of his creation and that a council (Luciferians), of equal spiritual progression to He, was allowed to intercede and grant humans free will.

Look into Law of Ra and other similar writings for more info but, take note, any answers you find acceptable to your questions will be based primarily on what resonates with you. The fact is, no one knows the truth.

Whole lot of If's in those questions, why speculate, we could do that all day.

What if the sky was green.

What if the british won the revolutionary war?

ETC, we can speculate all day, so whats the point you are trying to make, lets just skip the speculation and leading by the nose.


ETA:

Another words state your hypothesis and back it up with references and source material to back up your hypothesis.

benrl
Whole lot of If's in those questions, why speculate, we could do that all day.

What if the sky was green.

What if the british won the revolutionary war?

ETC, we can speculate all day, so whats the point you are trying to make, lets just skip the speculation and leading by the nose.

The interesting thing about these questions is that there are answers outside of the box. You have to understand that I follow Aritstotlean thought processes. In other words, I think in the abstract.

The question about the sky...we only perceive the sky as blue and it assigned to us to understand that the sky is blue. But have you ever been in an airplane? You don't go into a blue place, once you get there you realize it is not blue, but invisible. That's how it is with God also. The history of Yaweh and El come from two different perspectives found earlier in Ugaritic, the Canaanites.

The oceans look blue because the sky reflects on it. When you are in the ocean and hold the water in your hand, it isn't blue, it is clear.

But you have invisible elements that make invisible air appear to be a color. And color simply exists because of the amount of light reflected in an object. It is not that something really is a color, it is because our brains tell us that something is a color even though it is merely an optical illusion.

YWHW means "I AM". As far as being a proper name, that is not what Moses said. He said "Whom shall I say sent me?" To which the voice replied "Tell them I AM sent thee".

So it's like color, the name is reflective for us to see a being with personality and intelligence, but no man can "see" Yaweh, because Yaweh simply IS, as air and water is. But it took color for you to see something that was invisible.

We do see the effects of I AM and Satan in the world. The "color" of Yaweh is different than the "color" of Satan. But you have to understand what colors are what. But in Color Theory, it is called hues.

When you hold air or water in your hand, where's the blue?

But at the same time we see visible colors that we perceive, there is the invisible spectrum. It is beyond our immediate perception, but still there. That's how people want to see God, they want Him in the visible before they believe their eyes, even though their eyes don't see, their brain translates the visual image entering into their optic nerve and stimulating the rods and cones in the back of their eyes.

We cannot see that invisible spectrum because it would overwhelm our senses. But at the same time, we know something is dangerous or safe because of the light reflection. An orange is not safe because we perceive the green decay. And that's knowing the difference in Yaweh and Satan. Decay is the effect of Satan.

What was the one thing that Satan did bring to Adam and Eve? Death. It had not been in the world before that moment. The tree "looked" good, and that means Eve's perception said to her that it was good. That does not mean that the tree WAS good, it just means her perception of what she saw and didn't know what was good and evil.

I AM said "don't eat it" because His perception is much clearer. I AM is the ultimate perception that no person will ever have in this life.

reply to post by capod2t


reply to post by Klassified



So if Yahweh isn't the devil, but the roles were reversed. Where does that leave Michael, Gabriel and all these other angels of "Yahweh" that even New Age people seem to believe in ? Wouldn't that mean that they are all fallen angels while Lucifer is not?

I see people calling "Yahweh" the devil/evil and yet they still believe in Archangel Michael even though that is an angel of Yahweh.

reply to post by benrl

benrl
Whole lot of If's in those questions, why speculate, we could do that all day.

What if the sky was green.

What if the british won the revolutionary war?

I said "if" meaning that if Yahweh is in fact the devil as these people claim.. obviously the questions are not for you if the "if" (Yahweh = the devil) is not a belief you hold.

benrl
Another words state your hypothesis and back it up with references and source material to back up your hypothesis.

The hypothesis is assumed to be true. I'm only addressing the question to people who believe that Yahweh is the devil.

The point of this thread being, if Yahweh IS the devil , as they claim, then who or what is "The Serpent" and that would mean that "Archangel Michael" is really a fallen angel as well.

reply to post by arpgme


1) If Yahweh is The Devil in disguise, who was "The Serpent" that Yahweh was mad at?

The snake/serpent is a visual aid, one half of the Caduceus. Which was the sign of the House of Life in the Sumerian versions of the creation saga. So it points directly at two people who were given the task of creating the worker, either Enki or his sister Nin-Hursag (Ninti, etc)

In the twisted and heavily edited Biblical tale of Eden, the serpent is Enki (NK), youngest pure blood son of Anu, younger brother to Enlil (NL) who was not a pure blood son due to being born of a concubine.

Because his older brother was lying to the humans, Enki informed them in the E.Din (Eden, meaning first place or first time), "God is lying to you." God of course being a generic word used to describe a position of influence and superiority, and not a personal name.

2) If Yahweh is The Devil, then aren't his angels Archangel Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Metatron, etc. really fallen angels?

If you believe the dogma then perhaps yes.

3) And if "Michael" is the fallen angel, doesn't that mean that his opposite Lucifer is not?

as above

4) Why did Jesus reference "Moses" and "The Law" if Yahweh is the devil? Why did he go to "the synagogue"?

Because this man with the anglicised name of "Jesus" was born and bred as a Jew, educated as a jew of the times and therefore had no idea about the recorded history of the sumerians.

The "God" Jesus speaks of is not the same God of the Sumerians. One was a physical being called Enlil, the other is a force or awareness behind the universe that we humans with our small minded thinking processes and focusing have lumped into the same story or dogma that existed before Jesus was born.

Oldie
reply to post by arpgme

 

Because this man with the anglicised name of "Jesus" was born and bred as a Jew, educated as a jew of the times and therefore had no idea about the recorded history of the sumerians.

The "God" Jesus speaks of is not the same God of the Sumerians. One was a physical being called Enlil, the other is a force or awareness behind the universe that we humans with our small minded thinking processes and focusing have lumped into the same story or dogma that existed before Jesus was born.

Emmanuel was well aware of the recorded history. He does speak about Ba'al, it was written in scripture even in the time of Elijah.

There were many other gods listed that were spoken of, but not in Hebrew. Tammuz was mentioned as well. And if Paul was aware of the Book of Enoch in his day, then it was well known to him as well. Paul was educated by Gamaliel.

This "Anglicized" name seems to give people trouble so maybe we can call Him Emmanuel, perhaps? And it was well-known in His time of other gods, because we find those gods names in cities and other people in the Bible.

But just because we don't see the Sumerian language does not mean they didn't know. For instance, Shamash is the Akkadian god of the Sun, and Shamash is still used today, Shamash is the center candle in a menorah.

Even the priest that Abraham met was named Melchi-Zedeck, references a Sumerian god. He is the priest of El Elyon. If we go to a purely historical point, the worship of El Elyon was much earlier than Abraham. So Jesus was well aware of El Elyon.

What we have to understand is this, scholars now say that the Bible was compiled by two different camps, the Yawihst and Elohist.

barrybandstra.com...

There are times when we can tell there is a difference. And this was known in Emmanuel's day also. As we see that some names contained El such as Daniel "God is my judge" and Eliyah "God is my God". But Eliyah has both contained.

I think Joshua said it well "you may serve the gods of your fathers before the flood, as for me and my house we will serve Adonai". While we don't see Enki or Enlil in the Bible, it is simply because the Torah was written in Hebrew. So look for gods with the same actions and characteristics. And if you want to go further, look at the Rig Vedas before Hinduism. They also had the same creation story, but the god mentioned was Brahman. And Emmanuel was aware of that, because He mentions Adam and Eve.

What I found interesting is that Nikkal, full name Nikkal-wa-Ib, while she was a Canaanite goddess of orchards, the very word for "blossom" in Song of Solomon is the root Nikkal. Her counterpart was the Babylonian Ningal. You can see how the names are very similar.

De Moor translates Ugaritic "ib" as "blossom" which survives in biblical Hebrew as אֵב (Strongs Concordance 3) and cites Canticles 6:11 as a survival of this usage

One might imagine that Song of Solomon is the story of Nikkal and Yahrick. And this is something Emmanuel would have known as well.

I would imagine that Nikk-al would be the feminine, if she were male then it would be Nikk-el. But that's my own theory. So the Bible does have references to these gods and goddesses, but you have to know the language.

reply to post by arpgme

1) If Yahweh is The Devil in disguise, who was "The Serpent" that Yahweh was mad at?

Genesis classifies the serpent as a beast of the field. From there it was demoted to "hated beast of the dust".
Your thread title got cut off, so what is your point? Did you mean to say "Satan"?

2) If Yahweh is The Devil, then aren't his angels Archangel Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Metatron, etc. really fallen angels?

They would be from Heaven, so by definition, they would not be "fallen".
YHWH is a spiritual entity said to inhabit a temple in Jerusalem.

3) And if "Michael" is the fallen angel, doesn't that mean that his opposite Lucifer is not?

His "opposite" would be another one such as himself, but representing the Persians or maybe the Babylonians.

4) Why did Jesus reference "Moses" and "The Law" if Yahweh is the devil? Why did he go to "the synagogue"?

Moses was a man imbued with divine authority according to Jewish legend. The acceptance of such a thing should allow for the same to be thought of himself.
The synagogue was an accepted established institution in the diaspora which serves as a perfect replacement for the temple that was occupied by that hurtful entity who is the enemy of mankind.