France bans children's beauty contests in bid to stop the 'hyper-sexualisation' of youngsters.

reply to post by FreedomEntered


I believe the fundamental question underlying this issue and many others is this: do we ask the government to do for us what we can do for ourselves...and under what circumstances should be engage in what many thoughtful philosophers have said is a very dangerous thing.

people are passionate about alot of things and over decades of increasing wealth, higher standard of living, and the inevitable growth of government and big business control over our lives, we have become increasing dependent on those entities to 'protect' us....provide for us, and in my opinion, these days coddle us. We are a shadow of our former revolutionary, independent selves. Most of us panic when the electricity goes off and the basic amenities of our soft lives are suspended or taken away.

killing the patient to treat the disease is not the way. Phenomena like what the OP describes is a SYMPTOM of societies ills....and asking or allowing the government to step in and regulate or control what private citizens are doing which is NOT in violation of any law currently on the books at least in the US, is simply dangerous and an abdication of OUR responsibility to do our part in the management of society. How can anyone respect themselves as a freedom loving citizen if instead of going out and pursuing the righting of societal wrongs they instead ask the government to do it for them? It simply makes us fat, lazy, and places us in a position of subservience to the government even more than we already are.

I would ask every thoughtful person to carefully consider their role in the ever increasing size and control of government in our lives. If history shows one thing quite well, its that government doesnt do anything as well as ordinary people that are passionate and united.

This is it and models who are 20yrs younger than the people they are selling to. I wonder who are they appealing to honestly?

I mean if someone is selling something to a certain age range at least be honest about it. But sticking some product on a child or teen that is adult in material is just disgusting.

One wonders if there isn't some strange market out there that the photographers or media is appealing to. Which makes conspiracy theories on this topic seem all the more real.

The parents cant be bothered to wait for their children to grow up and make a decision on how they are presenting themselves.

Note Miley Cyrus recent stunt of dancing with teddy bears, singing about drugs and so on. Sick and wont help anyone... apart from the viscious attackers/predators.

This is a surprising move coming from the country who gave the world 13 year-old Playboy models. My initial reaction is that this ban is a good thing. Most of these girls don't have a chance to choose whether to participate; their parents (usually mothers it seems) make that choice for them. Even though they're not posing nude, I'm sure there are still cases that mirror that of Eva Ionesco, who was not physically abused but still suffered psychological damage from the photography in which she was forced to participate. I can't help but wonder if her case in particular had something to do with this decision, even if it is an older one.

That being said, instigatah brings up some very good points. Why should we rely on the government to regulate this for us? These pageants aren't going to disappear. If you outlaw them, they just move underground. Then, out of the view of the public eye and free from any system of regulation, the pageants begin to degrade into something even worse than what they are now. Making them illegal doesn't make them go away.

France...I take back every bad thing I've ever said about you!!! These pageants have always been borderline child abuse and the parents should be stopped. 16 years old sounds reasonable. Because at 16, at least the kids have a chance to say "Hell No!".

AlliumIslelily
Most of these girls don't have a chance to choose whether to participate; their parents (usually mothers it seems) make that choice for them.

Is it their lack of choice that concerns you... or the subject matter?

Few children have a chance to choose whether to participate in virtually anything their parents choose for them, especially extra-curricular activities prior to later grade school. I know there are piano players who could tell you some horror stories of their psychological conditioning (which in some cases moved into physical conditioning) that still causes them daily problems well into their adult lives.

Is it any different from parents sending their boys to smash their heads and limbs together for a few years via sports... creating chronic and low level concussion damage that permanently affects their ability to think and perform as an adult? Or conditioning a kid to be excited about going into the military to "fight with honor"... aka die and leave their family fatherless but "proud"?

If it's lack of choice... then we have a much much bigger conversation to have than these pageants.

If it's NOT their lack of choice that concerns you including all OTHER circumstances the child doesn't have a choice... it would be best to not even talk about their lack of "choice" being a reason to allow or ban these sort of events.

Lady_Tuatha
There should really be some law against that or child protection service for that.

No... there shouldn't. This is a cultural challenge which is never solved with laws. Only exacerbated over the long run.

reply to post by BardingTheBard


You make an excellent point, and that's a hard question to answer. I think I'll have to go with their lack of choice as a more important issue than the pageant itself. You're right though; that does bring us to a whole different issue. Thanks for helping me think more deeply about it.

I agree, I was just having a conversation the other day about thinking that the USA should do so.

Seriously there is no good that can come from them. They are open to the public which means there is sure to be perverts at each and every one. These girls who are 6-12 are dressed and made up like streetwalkers.

Good for France, hope we follow in their footsteps.

brandiwine14
Seriously there is no good that can come from them. They are open to the public which means there is sure to be perverts at each and every one. These girls who are 6-12 are dressed and made up like streetwalkers.

Waterparks.
Beaches.

How many times have we taken a ride on the "Ban Train" only to find out it in fact makes the situation WORSE in the long run?

I have an idea: No female under the age of consent in the area is allowed to wear anything that doesn't cover their shoulders, cleavage (whether it's only hopeful cleavage or real), stomach, and shorts at least two inches below the crotch. Even when swimming in public. Females over the age of consent can wear whatever they like... I don't care.

Do I have your support?

AlliumIslelily
You make an excellent point, and that's a hard question to answer. I think I'll have to go with their lack of choice as a more important issue than the pageant itself. You're right though; that does bring us to a whole different issue. Thanks for helping me think more deeply about it.

Honestly... thank you as deeply as I know how to express via text. It's one of the subject matters of our current culture that occasionally keeps me up at night. Not just the choice, but what exactly we're subjecting our kids to... simply because it's what we were subjected to and don't even consider seeing what it looks like from the outside.

That said...before we go stomping on people that look awkward from the outside... it is at least worth trying to understand what they think they are doing. I wouldn't be surprised if many moms involved in the pageant circle are... "tragically" naive.

Well, I live in France and never ever heard of a beauty pageant for children happening here!
I have heard scandalized people comment upon seeing on tv reports that they exist in the US- the idea is shocking to them.

Someone wrote that France brought 13 year old Playboy Models??? WTF? Playboy is an american magazine... I haven't heard about this. I'll have to look it up.

The concerns America has about "big government" are not the same in France. The government is controlled by the people. It IS the people. If it tries to do anything the people do not like, they quickly put a stop to it.
They are very adept at using the force of multitudes.
They do not hesitate to work for the government (that way they can control it).
The enemy of the people here is big buisness- international corporations. The people use the government to counter that enemy.

This law was passed as a statement of the people (at least the majority) that they have deemed it unacceptable in their country. In the US, of course, people would defend the rights of individuals to do as they wish. But here it is considered the duty of the democratic vote to protect children from individuals who wish to do things that are detrimental to them. The rights of the individual stop where others start.

BardingTheBard

brandiwine14
I agrSeriously there is no good that can come from them. They are open to the public which means there is sure to be perverts at each and every one. These girls who are 6-12 are dressed and made up like streetwalkers.

Waterparks.
Beaches.

How many times have we taken a ride on the "Ban Train" only to find out it in fact makes the problem WORSE in the long run?

I have an idea: No female under the age of consent in the area is allowed to wear anything that doesn't cover their shoulders, cleavage (whether it's only hopeful cleavage or real), stomach, and shorts least two inches below the crotch. Even when swimming in public. Females over the age of consent can wear whatever they like... I don't care.

Do I have your support?

Star for "Water parks. Beaches." alone. Haha, so true.

Also, let's take your suggested solution one step further. (I'm not arguing with you, just further backing your point.) Let's go more extreme and say all girls under 20 must always wear turtlenecks and long pants when in public. There are still people out there who will be aroused. Heck, make them wear burqas. There will still be pervs who just want to stare and let their imagination make up for it.

So then we have to ask, is the issue hyper-sexualization of children, or are we wanting to police and eliminate all "impure thoughts" in society?

**EDIT**

Bluesma
Someone wrote that France brought 13 year old Playboy Models??? WTF? Playboy is an american magazine... I haven't heard about this. I'll have to look it up.

I mixed up my information a bit. It was the Italian Playboy magazine, but with a French model and photographer. The model's name is Eva Ionesco. Her story is a sad one in my opinion, but I think it's an important situation to be aware of because it further reinforces the idea that not all sexual abuse is physical.

BardingTheBard
Honestly... thank you as deeply as I know how to express via text. It's one of the subject matters of our current culture that occasionally keeps me up at night. Not just the choice, but what exactly we're subjecting our kids to... simply because it's what we were subjected to and don't even consider seeing what it looks like from the outside.

That said...before we go stomping on people that look awkward from the outside... it is at least worth trying to understand what they think they are doing. I wouldn't be surprised if many moms involved in the pageant circle are... "tragically" naive.

edit on 20-9-2013 by BardingTheBard because: (no reason given)

I think this is one of the fundamental issues and forms the base for so many larger problems. Too many people perpetuate ways of thinking and behaving because it is all they know. But I agree, we shouldn't go stomping around on people. All of us are guilty to some degree, and the best we can do is keep peeling off the layers of conditioning to gain an ever-increasing level of perspective.

I have yet to see a six year old at the water park with mascara, lipstick, eyeshadow and heels on, is that something you see often.

Am I mistaken that you think that the promoted over sexualtion of children just so their mothers can live vicariously through them again is okay?

these are freaking young children. Bathing suits at the beach fine. Mini skirt, heels, bra top strutting their stuff at age eight sure as hell is not fine.

Get your freaking priorities straight. Let them be kids, they will grow up soon enough.

No one is suggesting covering children up from head to toe or not letting them play.

Just the exploitation of children needs to stop, that's simply it. Profiting from their sexualisation without their consent basically.

Let kids be kids.

And the media does go too far at times. They need protection. Its a fact.

brandiwine14
I have yet to see a six year old at the water park with mascara, lipstick, eyeshadow and heels on, is that something you see often.

Do you believe those are the only things "perverts" would be attracted to? Do grown women not wear one piece swimsuits with the intent to be attractive and alluring sometimes? Is "street walker" the only level of dress and mannerisms that concern you?

What I do see though are children, and especially (pre)teens, wearing bathing suits that would have been considered too risque for "grown" women not too long ago.

Is it that we were all too prudish back then, or is it that people in the future will think we are prudish for getting upset that a 6 year old dressed like the main character from Pretty Woman?

brandiwine14
Am I mistaken that you think that the promoted over sexualtion of children just so their mothers can live vicariously through them again is okay?

I don't think the non-voluntary sexualization of anyone so others can live vicariously through them is ok.

I don't support or encourage these pageants... but I'm not going to look at them and pretend like they are some exception to the rule rather than a concentrated reflection of the culture at large. Just most people have learned to ignore it... or take it for "normal".

I also don't support Football because it promotes the over-competition and long term physical damage just so their parents can live vicariously through them.

brandiwine14
these are freaking young children. Bathing suits at the beach fine. Mini skirt, heels, bra top strutting their stuff at age eight sure as hell is not fine.

To you they are fine. To me much of what girls are wearing at the beach is not fine. Which of us should set the standard?

brandiwine14
Get your freaking priorities straight. Let them be kids, they will grow up soon enough.

As a recipient in childhood of unasked/not-understood sexual advances and attention... from girls, boys, women, and men... I assure you I have my priorities straight.

I'm telling you flat out. The mindset of "there outta be a law!" is part of what is helping leave children to only have other children just as ignorant as them... and predators or exploiters... as the primary first contact on this aspect of life (and for some, their only contacts once they've opened that door).

I'm not trying to encourage child sexual beauty pageants. I'm trying to get you to look further and see what's REALLY going on around you. These pageants are just easy targets... but the real cultural attitude and perspective is far more pervasive and taken for granted as "normal".

In a way I'm saying you aren't harsh enough... but on the other I'm trying to emphasize that when it comes to ALL of our safety ALL of our rights ALL of our well being... jumping on the BAN train and pitchfork train will make it worse for everyone and NOT solve the thing you are worried about.

It will simply hide it away from view and make it so it "feels" like it's fixed so everyone can feel better about themselves while it continues in some other form.

AlliumIslelily
Also, let's take your suggested solution one step further. (I'm not arguing with you, just further backing your point.) Let's go more extreme and say all girls under 20 must always wear turtlenecks and long pants when in public. There are still people out there who will be aroused.

Exactly. If we are to ban something because someone might be aroused by it... then we've got real issues.

What should we do about girls dressed up as Wonder Woman or Supergirl? There are more than enough men and women who are aroused by those characters and their outfits.

AlliumIslelily
So then we have to ask, is the issue hyper-sexualization of children, or are we wanting to police and eliminate all "impure thoughts" in society?

It's more complicated and personal than that for most people, especially those with the biggest pitchforks.

We have people who were abused as children... by other children or adults... trying to have conversations with people who've never had anything negative happen to them sexually. Now add in all the OTHER factors that affect what stands out to a person and what isn't considered important...

Or what one person considers being exploited another considers a fond "coming of age" experience. Or what one person remembers positively... once they understand what it was really about are horrified... or others once they understand... are flattered and touched. Oy.

AlliumIslelily
...the best we can do is keep peeling off the layers of conditioning to gain an ever-increasing level of perspective.

Lovely!

Sorry not gonna get involved in an argument yea or nay, here, but am posting just to say: good for France.
For it seems, this is truly an issue, which the best way to deal with it is to STOP it. Sorry, but why in the world do you want to turn your CHILD into a full grown beauty queen, with make up, hairstyles and dressing, way beyond her age, anyway? Can't get to anywhere but a bad place, no matter your initial intentions about how beautiful little buffy is..... JMHO
Tetra50

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


France is doing the right thing. American society aught to do the same thing, but I doubt it will.

Reason #10001 why I love France.

Seriously though it's about time someone did this. I have never liked beauty pageants for kids, they send the wrong message to young impressionable girls.

I know too many women who have major image issues and it all stems from their parents, mothers, shoving them into beauty pageants as a kid. That is far too much pressure to have on a child to look "perfect". It's far too much pressure for an adult.

The show "Toddlers and Tiaras" is disgusting and should be cancelled. I watched one episode and wanted to smack all the parents on the show. The one girl wanted to play with her friends yet her mother was forcing her to do pageant stuff all the while saying "She wants to win and she wants this" yet the girl CLEARLY didn't, it was all the mother. These parents are shoving their kids into something because they didnt or couldn't do it as a child. IT's wrong.

Look at Honey Boo Boo, can't stand that show either. I feel bad for that girl honestly.


Good one France! Now please make me an honorary citizen

I was introduced to this subject by movie "Little Miss Sunshine". It is very good comedy and I can recommend it to everybody. I was clearly shocked what I saw there. It was disgusting - and my stomach is pretty strong.
This nonsense is clearly driven by TV industry - without it, there would not be such stupid contests. So there is maybe one way, not so restrictive as banning such contests per se, how to limit this phenomenon: ban on broadcasting.


BTW in 95% of cases there is some projection from mother to daughter. One of my friends have boy and he is forcing him to fulfill his dream to be bike racer. There is just one trouble: his kid do not like riding bikes.

all you guys/girls celebrating increased government micromanagement, this included, are just really pathetic slave-prisoner mentality institutionalized cowing government worshiping zombies. Yay, theyre making beauty pageants illegal, yay theyre making child modeling illegal, yay theyre making talent shows illegal, yay theyre making child actors illegal, yay theyre making child musicians illegal, yay theyre making everything with children illegal...yay theyre taking my child away and pumping them full of drugs because they found something wrong with my parenting, but thats OK its all for the children, gotta protect the children....we take your guns away for the children, were bombing syria to protect the children, were pumping you full of vaccines and filling your water and food supply with chemicals to protect the children.....


wow...the level of retarded logic and wilted reasoning ability is stunning....but hey, you guys enjoy your nanny state, you asked for it after all.

So you are suggesting what.. that the government takes NO stance on anything that is negative.. ever? Just let people do whatever they please? You are going completely overboard with your assumptions that it would lead to your child being taken away and pumped full of drugs. What a laughable leap of non-logic on your part. You don't give humans enough credit for being smart enough to know when something is bad (some child models / child pageants), and then knowing when something makes sense. You seriously think that next, they may stop children from playing instruments?

You are like many... so afraid of the government and what they MIGHT do, that you would rather allow them to do nothing at all.

This sort of thing should be illegal, and every time I am skimming through the channels and see such a pageant, my wife and I are absolutely disgusted with what we see. Good on France.