Kerry Gives in to Lavrov on “Use of Force,” Putin Wins, Assad Keeps WMD For Now

jdub297

Maybe you didn't see Obama quote FDR (and acknowledge Liberal Internationalism) on Tuesday:
“our national determination to keep free of foreign wars and foreign entanglements cannot prevent us from feeling deep concern when ideals and principles that we have cherished are challenged.”

Liberal internationalism is what is destroying the world. Sell bonds for welfare and military industrial complex spending. You dont solve problems by putting everyone on welfare payments, and you dont invade 10 countries under the pretense of humanitarianism.

Gadafhi bad man=invade, Hussein bad man=invade, Assad bad man=invade

Why isnt king faroud of saudi arabia the bad guy who exports sunni fundamentalism throughout the middle east?

Why isnt nato the bad guys, who alongside with saudi arabia, gives weapons to these sunni fundamentalists to overthrow the secular presidents? Not to mention the rebels/nato used chemical weapons on civilians, and then had the nerve to frame assad.

These fundamentalists if allowed to win would take the middle east back 100 years to pre-colonial times of barbarism. And people like you want that? You must be crazy or terribly brainwased and misinformed!

None of our purported leaders, the president, the elite media, the foreign-policy community, or even the public in general seem to feel any moral outrage about Assad’s mass murder of over 100,000 by conventional arms.

I dont believe this outrageous figure at all. I think nato will make up any number to justify an attack.

Then take that number and divide it between military and the rebels. Surely many military pesonel died from the attacks.

Whey isn't there any concern about how the Syrian war could affect other countries in the region—the UN has noted that this has been the greatest refugee crisis in its history!
No one talks about potential destabilization of Turkey, Lebanon or Jordan.
No one today possesses any inclination that America has an obligation not just to help Syrians, but to prevent the entire surrounding area from sliding into chaos. The greater Middle East—Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Bahrain, Egypt, Yemen—is in turmoil and Americans feel no need to help.

The present narcissism reflects why you elected Obama twice.

Taliban rule in much of Afghanistan; Pakistan’s borders are ungoverned; Iran’s nuclear program marches on; and North Korea has just restarted its plutonium production.

If America is not to be the indispensable nation any longer, as President Obama has signaled, and if liberal internationalism is in decline, who and what will substitute for American leadership on this vast array of global challenges?

www.thedailybeast.com...

We are pathetic and deserve whatever we get from this selfish attitude. I'd hate to see what we would do today with the rise of another Hitler or Stalin.

How sad.

jw

NATO plays a tremendous role in purposefully destabilising the middle east to keep the MIC pumping out weapons and so that stockholders continue to reap in the profits. One has to be a fool to believe most of the wars are of a humanitarian purpose.

And even if they were our $17 trillion debt does NOT allow it! Bring back jobs to america to pay off the debt. Create new jobs.

jdub297
It was generally agreed that American foreign policy could not simply be a matter of looking out for ourselves, but ought to hold such larger ambitions as the creation and preservation of a world in which democratic values and economic freedom could thrive; the championing of a rules-based international system; the mitigation of regional conflicts and instability; and opposition to oppressive ideologies.

economic freedom? like invading Iraq and killing Hussein while lying that he has WMD, because he dared to sell oil in other currencies than dollar? yeah, sure, it was all about Kuwait..

dude.. you're not even stupid.
you are completely INSANE.

reply to post by jdub297

The German magazine, Der Spiegel reported this week of a letter it received after the Syrian gassing of women and children, from a Dr. Wischmann which read: “We will be asked by our children what we did against this mass murder, as we asked our parents about Nazism. We will then lower our eyes and have to remain silent.”

This is what you will live with through fear, indifference and a lack of pride in "American values."

I won't have to.

After Obama announced that we were going to punish Assads regime with cruise missiles for using chemical weapons on his own people, I asked my son (13) what he thought about it. He said he thought it was awful that children had been gassed and he asked why anyone would do that, having learned about Hitler in school he made the comparison.

I asked him if he knew that Syria has been having a civil war for 2 years, he didn't know that and asked why. So I told him that a lot of Syrians were afraid that Assad would break his promise to open up elections in 2014 and that when they protested Assad attacked them violently and a lot of people were killed, we both agreed that Assad is a monster. My son said so some people are fighting for freedom and their leader is trying to kill them. I said yes and no. I told him that Al Qaeda was trying to take advantage of the situation and organized a resistance army and that now millions of people were caught between a brutal dictator and a terrorist organization.

My son said, so there's no good side and asked what we were supposed to do. I told him there was nothing we could do, that it was sad and tragic but that missile strikes won't help Syrians at all and will only cause more death. I told him we could send money to help humanitarian relief efforts in Jordan, so we're donating to Doctors Without Borders. I looked him in the eye and told him these things. He joined me when I protested.

I feel confident in my ability to teach my child to think critically even when something is so emotional we want to scream for having knowledge of it.

jdub297
Wherever you are, I hope your people never need anything American, including respect or appreciation of your culture and contributions, if any.

trust me when i say that people all around the world need only one thing from USA, and that is that every single damn US soldier on duty will GTFO back to his homeland, at lightspeed.

the world will survive without the USA, but the USA won't surivive without the rest of the world, because of your neverending greed to spend more and more of the money you don't really have - so you have to either borrow it from China or steal it - pardon me, 'earn it' - at war. pathetic.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg

Would you please care to explain this ignorant and astonishingly foolish comment? (The entire UK is a waste of poor real estate)

You've punished your citizens by eliminating 29% of their electricity generation and now suffer the threat of blackouts until 2020 because you only have a 5% reserve generating capacity.

Patients in your NHS die at 10 times the rate of the "horrible" US system and get pneumonia 3 times as much. Only 1 in 375 complaints about care actually get reviewed.

Your weather is admittedly the pits and your "forecasting" is a joke.

Citizens are banned from owning firearms so your violent crime rate exceeds every other European country.

Your food.

Your fealty to an anachronistic royalty.

That's just off the top of my head (and completely off-topic; I was responding to one of your brethren.)

reply to post by jdub297


Wow what an asshat you just proved yourself to be....one thing wrong with your assumptions we can own firearms, I have a gunsmith not 10 mins from where I live, we just don't need to own them nor want them to be honest.

Violent crime is reported very differently here in the UK so it appears we are a bunch of violent nutters but in reality the UK is a safe place to live.

Our weather is great, I love it here up north we have plenty of rain to produce our wonderful food and we have the best water in the world. (up north ).

Our royalty has been going for over a thousand years and many here do not worship them nor bend the knee but we respect our own history (don't worry you will get real history give a few more hundred years lol )we are citizens and If you knew anything about our history you would know about the magna carta which is the cornerstone of liberty for everyone in the UK (plus your constitution was based off it).

NHS could do better but It has saved my life twice and all without cost.

YOU have turned this thread into a sham with your post...pffft any respect I may have had has buggered off.

Again our food? fish n chips? black pudding? Tripe? Yorkshire puddings hhhmm wonderful hearty food.
But none of what you listed makes a country great...its the people who do that, there is a reason we are called GREAT Britons.


Rule Britannia!!

reply to post by Kali74

My son said, so there's no good side and asked what we were supposed to do. I told him there was nothing we could do, that it was sad and tragic but that missile strikes won't help Syrians at all and will only cause more death. I told him we could send money to help humanitarian relief efforts in Jordan, so we're donating to Doctors Without Borders. I looked him in the eye and told him these things. He joined me when I protested.

I feel confident in my ability to teach my child to think critically even when something is so emotional we want to scream for having knowledge of it.

I've always admired your insight and thoughtfulness.

Yes, there's nothing we can do to change things 2 years too late, except minimize the suffering of the innocent.
We missed our chance to make a difference because the person in charge dithered and courted Assadin secret (Have you seen the pictures of Kerry's dinner parties with Bashar and Asma in Damascus?).

I hope your son one day understands that when good people fail to act against tyranny everyone loses.

Many of the posts on here do not understand that you sometimes have to stand up for what is right, even when it is unpopular and you are afraid. We had a chance 2 years ago, and that time has long passed.

We instead tried to court Taliban terrorists to "negotiate" for a role in a democracy they don't believe in and despise; and we secretly "reached out" to an Iranian madman who believes that certain people have no right to live and wants a nuclear weapon to prove it.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned, and many of us have been smelling smoke for 5 years.
Our country is a pathetic shell of what it once was or might be again when your son grows up.

Good luck.

boymonkey74
reply to post by jdub297

 

....one thing wrong with your assumptions we can own firearms ... .

You are right ; I exaggerated, given your inability to use them for self defense.
I know the 1997 Firearms Act banned private possession of handguns almost completely. I should have gone into greater detail, but tried to keep the list short and to-the-point.

Now we're all happy!

jdub297
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

Would you please care to explain this ignorant and astonishingly foolish comment? (The entire UK is a waste of poor real estate)

You've punished your citizens by eliminating 29% of their electricity generation and now suffer the threat of blackouts until 2020 because you only have a 5% reserve generating capacity.

Patients in your NHS die at 10 times the rate of the "horrible" US system and get pneumonia 3 times as much. Only 1 in 375 complaints about care actually get reviewed.

Your weather is admittedly the pits and your "forecasting" is a joke.

Citizens are banned from owning firearms so your violent crime rate exceeds every other European country.

Your food.

Your fealty to an anachronistic royalty.

That's just off the top of my head (and completely off-topic; I was responding to one of your brethren.)

The electricity comment is a fair cop. Thats what happens when you let the free market decide on strategic matters like fundamental utilities. Nobody builds nuclear. All the companies throw up gas plants because they are cheap. You are then left with gas exporters like Qatar gripping your balls tightly. Never should have been privatised, neither should water.

For the most part the NHS works fine. Its not perfect but it services most people fine. I've been fortunate enough to be healthy but its saved my mother twice (once from septicaemia and once from heart problems requiring heart surgery). All at no cost at point of need.

Weather is difficult to predict because of our geographic location. Its a good growing climate, one of the things that meant our civilisation blossomed as it did. I'll take it over the desert or the tundra. The odd surprising shower wont kill me.

We are particular in the way we report violent crime. If you visit the wrong place you may end up beaten up, or slashed. You are unlikely to be shot to death. I respect the american right to own arms. Given the culture and history of the USA if I lived there I would own one. I don't feel the need to have one here and don't feel the introduction of firearms to the general population would improve my safety in any way.

We have some of the most diverse cuisine on the planet, its one of the benefits of immigration. That criticism had validity in the war years and in the 1950s. It does not now.

Americans have a bee in their bonnet about the Royal Family. We are a constitutional monarchy, not an absolute monarchy. We haven't given fealty for centuries. We don't do 'pledges of allegiance' to flags or queens or all that hoo ha. The royal family are figureheads, sources of continuity in time of trouble. They are also non partisan and can do their job without the weekly dirt of politics. Lawmaking, all the power that matters is executed by parliament (with the upper house as a review body).

reply to post by jdub297


O look more yanky doodle BS from the ignorant American that knows nothing about the UK or anything to do with repecting other cultures.

Hell you cant even refute my points on why intervention in syria would be pointless! Come on Refute them! How would deposeing Assad help tell me? Who would you put in his place? Al qeada? The heart Eater?

You just spew the propaganda!


The small percent of American like you are what is causeing America to be so hated. Hatred that has been dircted in the ME to kill americans. If you (the small percentage like you) kept you interfering yanky noises out the ME the twin towers would still be standing.

reply to post by jdub297


I'm going to go with what all the people above me have said. You obviously know nothing about this country and what you think you do know is screwed up. Poor you.

AngryCymraeg
reply to post by jdub297

 

I'm going to go with what all the people above me have said. You obviously know nothing about this country and what you think you do know is screwed up. Poor you.

He most likely got evevything his knows from a texas school book and the rest from fox news

crazyewok
reply to post by jdub297

 

How would deposeing Assad help tell me?

It would NOT; it is 2 years too late.
Back when Clinton and Obama said, "Assad must go." it would have resulted in and end to his murder of peaceful protesters, and allowed a transition to a moderate leader.

They have been alternately bellicose and dithering ever since.
No one believes anything the president says anymore (they never should have).
He and Kerry have backed themselves into a wall where they have to make empty threats they do not intend to follow; or, if they do, with disastrous consequences.

Who would you put in his place?

No one. Allah will settle Syria. Millions will flee or die due to our inaction.

You just spew the ignorance.

If you (the small percentage like you) kept you interfering yanky noises out the ME the twin towers would still be standing.

That is simply ignorance and without bases in fact!
The WTC was 1st attacked in 1993 by the same group that tried again later.

There was no American armed conflict in the Middle East in or prior to 1993. In fact, we have suffered several attackes in the years prior. Your lack of knowledge of history is astounding.

Likewise, we were not in direct conflict in the Middle East in 2001.
More blather from the empty-headed UK.

jdub297
There was no American armed conflict in the Middle East in or prior to 1993. In fact, we have suffered several attackes in the years prior. Your lack of knowledge of history is astounding.

how about the Gulf War?
en.wikipedia.org...

you just spew lies, lies and more lies. if you want to collect that paycheck from the CIA, i would advice you to remove your ATS account and start all over. you have been compromised.

reply to post by Kali74

A day later, after the smoke clears, Americans are strting to analyze just what, if anything has changed under the Kerry/Lavrov Framework Agreement on Syria:

Sens. John McCain and Lindsey Graham criticized the U.S.-Russia agreement Saturday to disarm Syria of its chemical weapons, calling it “meaningless” and saying the agreement sends the wrong signal to Iran, which is suspected of building a nuclear weapon.

The Republican senators said the framework agreement reached by Secretary of State John Kerry and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov is toothless without the U.N. Security Council Resolution that threatens the use of force should Syrian President Bashar al-Assad fail to comply.
...
“Assad will use the months and months afforded to him to delay and deceive the world using every trick in Saddam Hussein's playbook,” the Republican senators said in a statement. “It requires a willful suspension of disbelief to see this agreement as anything other than the start of a diplomatic blind alley, and the Obama administration is being led into it by Bashar Assad and [Russian President] Vladimir Putin.”

The senators, who visited Syria in May, reiterated their position that the United States should arm Assad opposition forces in the roughly 2-year-long civil war, in which roughly 100,000 people have been killing and millions have fled.

“The only way this underlying conflict can be brought to a decent end is by significantly increasing our support to moderate opposition forces in Syria,” the statement said. "We must strengthen their ability to degrade Assad's military advantage, change the momentum on the battlefield, and thereby create real conditions for a negotiated end to the conflict."

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

McCain, Graham call US-Russia agreement on Syria 'meaningless'

And so, Kali, after all the hype and bluster, we're right where we left off and face the prospect suggested by the good doctor in his Der Spiegel letter: in the end, the most powerful nations have done NOTHING to end the bloodshed or relieve the innocents' misery.

How sad and pathetic we've become.

jw

It was this policy that resulted in a united Europe, free, and at peace.

reply to post by jdub297


O my goodness! Your ignorance is astouding!

The USA has been involved in the middle east since WW2!

Here are a few things that may have pissed of the muslims:
Gulf War 1
Desert Fox
Suppling Isreal with WMD (Nukes!)
Forbidding muslim states for haveing Nukes when Israel has them.
US bases dotted around the ME.
Trade sanctions

reply to post by jdub297


Again. What propaganda. The rebela are the onea massacring civilians. Whobis more likely to kill civilians, the secular regime protecting the areas they hold and protecting christians or the violent jihadis beheadibg everyone (even in front of time magazine photographers) and hoping for sharia law and killing christians? Not to mention the rebels gassing 400 civilians to blame it on Assad.

reply to post by crazyewok


We didn't supply Israel with nukes. They made their own at dimona and in conjuction with South Africa.

reply to post by jdub297


All I am seeing is a perfect example of a completely ignorant American who still falsely believes that America has the right to do whatever the hell it pleases because they are "exceptional" and damn what the international community wants.

America had it's time mate, then you went and buggered the whole thing up. Realise that the rest of the world has caught up to you, and in some cases surpassed you, and we will no longer stand idly by while America tramples all over us.

Oh and it has been explained, multiple times and in great detail, by the OWNERS of this site that ATS is an INTERNATIONAL WEBSITE created by Americans and British. Please feel free to search for this before you go making yourself look even more ignorant than you plainly already are.