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Adding incorrect subtext due to gender
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I was hanging out with one of my friends that I went to visit in Southern Idaho, and we were getting in an argument about relationship issues, I
guess? She basically told me that I was a misogynist and that I was treating her differently because she was a girl,
Which entirely blew my mind. As a pansexual, I am entirely not on that duality male-female playing field. I see people as people, and I actually think in terms of Yin and Yang instead of male or female. In fact, one of my best friends is gay and married, and I have no idea about the sexuality of some of my other male friends.
As far as relationships go, I'm not sexually attracted to hardly anyone, however I am intellectually attracted to them. So... relationships and friendships? The line is entirely blurry there, as far as roles go, and I have no idea what to do about it.
Apparently, some people in my life totally do not understand that I'm interested in getting to know them or hanging out based on common interests or intellectual pursuits and assume that it is for some other incredibly simple and boring purpose.
But back to gender roles - when my friend told me that I was treating her differently because she was a girl, it totally blew my mind because she wanted me to treat her like one of my straight guy friends, and I was like... whoa... I don't even know how I would treat a straight guy friend.
It's an example of being labelled as a misogynist when being a misogynist implies something way more simplistic than how I approach people or relationships. But after my mind was blown by this, I of course did examine what she said...
And I realized something. When I channeled her through male energy, everything she said or did made a lot more sense to me. I realized that even I had been adding subtext to what she was saying that wasn't there, or assuming things about her motives that were entirely not present because she was female.
For example, looking at a hair dryer. That device has connotations to it, that she enjoys doing her hair or whatever, but the reality is she might find it entirely boring and stupid that she has to -
So then when I went to hang out with my best friend, who is gay, and I started channeling his energy through female origins, my mind was blown again - I realized that I had been adding subtext to his conversation as well, due to the fact that he was male.
And in both the cases of my male and female friend, even their parents and relationship partners do the same thing, I started noticing that it was causing some arguments to happen.
One thing that is important to point out is that I am currently residing in Idaho, where gender roles are hostilely enforced, so there is a polarization here that makes discrepancies in behavior more blatant and easier to analyze.
Which entirely blew my mind. As a pansexual, I am entirely not on that duality male-female playing field. I see people as people, and I actually think in terms of Yin and Yang instead of male or female. In fact, one of my best friends is gay and married, and I have no idea about the sexuality of some of my other male friends.
As far as relationships go, I'm not sexually attracted to hardly anyone, however I am intellectually attracted to them. So... relationships and friendships? The line is entirely blurry there, as far as roles go, and I have no idea what to do about it.
Apparently, some people in my life totally do not understand that I'm interested in getting to know them or hanging out based on common interests or intellectual pursuits and assume that it is for some other incredibly simple and boring purpose.
But back to gender roles - when my friend told me that I was treating her differently because she was a girl, it totally blew my mind because she wanted me to treat her like one of my straight guy friends, and I was like... whoa... I don't even know how I would treat a straight guy friend.
It's an example of being labelled as a misogynist when being a misogynist implies something way more simplistic than how I approach people or relationships. But after my mind was blown by this, I of course did examine what she said...
And I realized something. When I channeled her through male energy, everything she said or did made a lot more sense to me. I realized that even I had been adding subtext to what she was saying that wasn't there, or assuming things about her motives that were entirely not present because she was female.
For example, looking at a hair dryer. That device has connotations to it, that she enjoys doing her hair or whatever, but the reality is she might find it entirely boring and stupid that she has to -
So then when I went to hang out with my best friend, who is gay, and I started channeling his energy through female origins, my mind was blown again - I realized that I had been adding subtext to his conversation as well, due to the fact that he was male.
And in both the cases of my male and female friend, even their parents and relationship partners do the same thing, I started noticing that it was causing some arguments to happen.
One thing that is important to point out is that I am currently residing in Idaho, where gender roles are hostilely enforced, so there is a polarization here that makes discrepancies in behavior more blatant and easier to analyze.
edit on 11-9-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
reply to post by darkbake
Anyway, I started to wonder about myself and how often subtext had been added to what I have said based on my gender - although with me, it is a lot more complex, as when my mood shifts I can take on traits of either gender and therefore it adds more layers to what is already going to be a hard issue to figure out.
So the main issues I have noticed involve conversation with me as a guy. If I start a conversation with a woman, I am genuinely interested in talking to her about whatever, I'm more than likely not approaching this situation because I am interested in her.
This behavior has been increased due to the prevalence of female and gay friends in my social circle. However, I can get entirely socially anxious in a situation in public and come off as awkward and that can get misinterpreted, so it totally depends on how confident I am feeling.
There are some situations where I will not speak at all to a woman whom I would like to be engaged in conversation with because I'm afraid of her taking it the wrong way.
----------
When it comes to a girl who might be more of a man, there can be subtext added in order to make her statements a LOT more complicated than they actually are. Basically, if she tells you something, it is what it is, there is no subtext there like there usually would be with a girl - on - guy friendship or relationship.
So one issue that was recently prevalent in the media was Miley Cyrus and her recent performance. When you channel her energy through a female, you can make up a lot of total bull# as far as what she was thinking that she may not have been thinking whatsoever.
But when you realize she is actually a guy, I think you might start to understand what she was thinking in a clearer manner.
---------
So these gender issues and strict adherences to ridiculously archaic and outdated roles regarding genitalia are a going to be a time bomb waiting to happen unless they are dealt with. Even in the most strict and hostile society like Idaho, it doesn't cover up the FACT that some people are going to resonate better with a different mix of Yin or Yang energy.
In our society, restricting gender roles is just asking for trouble.
----------
As a matter of fact, it turns out I am more progressive than my gay best friend, who wasn't able to understand transsexuals or lesbians that dated gay guys. I had to explain to him how it all worked.
I think that in a world where our reality is not restricted by incorrect labels, but is experienced through accurate assessments of our surroundings, we have to come to the conclusion that choosing a partner in a relationship is not as simple as a straight society, in fact, it is more complicated than a straight vs. gay society.
---------
When we are thinking about a situation where we are choosing who we are going to live with, even in a non-romantic sense, it is only going to be helpful to be able to see the situation from a clearer perspective without bias.
How is it helpful to always misinterpret what your freaking WIFE is saying because you are adding subtext that isn't there? How is it helpful to treat a guy with disrespect because you are adding subtext that isn't there?
It is not only going to impede your own interactions with others, but it has probably already impeded your experiences with others interacting with you, I bet you anything.
Anyway, I started to wonder about myself and how often subtext had been added to what I have said based on my gender - although with me, it is a lot more complex, as when my mood shifts I can take on traits of either gender and therefore it adds more layers to what is already going to be a hard issue to figure out.
So the main issues I have noticed involve conversation with me as a guy. If I start a conversation with a woman, I am genuinely interested in talking to her about whatever, I'm more than likely not approaching this situation because I am interested in her.
This behavior has been increased due to the prevalence of female and gay friends in my social circle. However, I can get entirely socially anxious in a situation in public and come off as awkward and that can get misinterpreted, so it totally depends on how confident I am feeling.
There are some situations where I will not speak at all to a woman whom I would like to be engaged in conversation with because I'm afraid of her taking it the wrong way.
----------
When it comes to a girl who might be more of a man, there can be subtext added in order to make her statements a LOT more complicated than they actually are. Basically, if she tells you something, it is what it is, there is no subtext there like there usually would be with a girl - on - guy friendship or relationship.
So one issue that was recently prevalent in the media was Miley Cyrus and her recent performance. When you channel her energy through a female, you can make up a lot of total bull# as far as what she was thinking that she may not have been thinking whatsoever.
But when you realize she is actually a guy, I think you might start to understand what she was thinking in a clearer manner.
---------
So these gender issues and strict adherences to ridiculously archaic and outdated roles regarding genitalia are a going to be a time bomb waiting to happen unless they are dealt with. Even in the most strict and hostile society like Idaho, it doesn't cover up the FACT that some people are going to resonate better with a different mix of Yin or Yang energy.
In our society, restricting gender roles is just asking for trouble.
----------
As a matter of fact, it turns out I am more progressive than my gay best friend, who wasn't able to understand transsexuals or lesbians that dated gay guys. I had to explain to him how it all worked.
I think that in a world where our reality is not restricted by incorrect labels, but is experienced through accurate assessments of our surroundings, we have to come to the conclusion that choosing a partner in a relationship is not as simple as a straight society, in fact, it is more complicated than a straight vs. gay society.
---------
When we are thinking about a situation where we are choosing who we are going to live with, even in a non-romantic sense, it is only going to be helpful to be able to see the situation from a clearer perspective without bias.
How is it helpful to always misinterpret what your freaking WIFE is saying because you are adding subtext that isn't there? How is it helpful to treat a guy with disrespect because you are adding subtext that isn't there?
It is not only going to impede your own interactions with others, but it has probably already impeded your experiences with others interacting with you, I bet you anything.
edit on 11-9-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
reply to post by darkbake
I guess my whole point is, like it or not, Pandora's Box has been opened - and there are going to be those who don't get it, and those who do, and those who do get it but are attacked by someone who thinks they don't, etc.
As with anything in society, pushing it under the rug only allows the situation to fester and explode twenty years down the line or so.
I guess my whole point is, like it or not, Pandora's Box has been opened - and there are going to be those who don't get it, and those who do, and those who do get it but are attacked by someone who thinks they don't, etc.
As with anything in society, pushing it under the rug only allows the situation to fester and explode twenty years down the line or so.
Women in particular are very selective about gender roles in my experience.
Talk to them differently, and they will blow up. However if you dont offer to carry their heavy bag, you are no longer a gentleman.
As men, we have to negotiate a minefield of accusations of in-equality. Sexism is very often used by women rather than men. Thats not to say that sexism is not projected by both sides, but just in my own personal expereience.
The trick is, as you say, treat them as a person rather than a pre-positioned stereotype.
However as humans we constantly retain information from past expereinces and apply them to people we dont even know!
I could show you a picture of someone you dont know, and you could try and guess their job, name, political views and sexual preference. You will pull all of the information from everyone you have ever seen and millions of calculations will happen in your brain, to establish a profile.
We try not to stereotype, but its in our nature. We regress back to things we know, or have expereienced previously, rather than taking people on their own personal traits.
Talk to them differently, and they will blow up. However if you dont offer to carry their heavy bag, you are no longer a gentleman.
As men, we have to negotiate a minefield of accusations of in-equality. Sexism is very often used by women rather than men. Thats not to say that sexism is not projected by both sides, but just in my own personal expereience.
The trick is, as you say, treat them as a person rather than a pre-positioned stereotype.
However as humans we constantly retain information from past expereinces and apply them to people we dont even know!
I could show you a picture of someone you dont know, and you could try and guess their job, name, political views and sexual preference. You will pull all of the information from everyone you have ever seen and millions of calculations will happen in your brain, to establish a profile.
We try not to stereotype, but its in our nature. We regress back to things we know, or have expereienced previously, rather than taking people on their own personal traits.
reply to post by darkbake
I have a love-hate relationship with gender roles and sexism.
On one hand, I cannot stand the Neo Feminist movement. You know, the ones who run around screaming "patriarchy!" at every turn, and believe that only women should be allowed to make societal decisions. I happen to think that they are just as bonkers as the "patriarchy" they seek to abolish.
By that same token though, I am an old fashioned gentleman. I believe in holding doors, offering coats, buying the meal, and all those things which are now seen as demeaning. It boggles my mind though, because I was raised to offer them as a kindnesses, not as a way of insinuating gender superiority.
In an effort to curb such hostility toward basic human kindness though, I've decided to flip the whole situation on its head.
Now I hold the door for anyone: man, woman, stranger, family, date, whoever. Now I buy the meal anytime that I go with a party and I'm not the driver. I keep a closet full of coats, hoodies, sweaters, and other apparel for anyone who might happen to stop by for a walk or chat on a cold night.
After all, it can't be sexist if I'm treating everyone the same.
As for analyzing things through a gender-lens... I honestly have no idea how to tell if I am, or am not. I think that I'm always taking people at face value, where what they say is what I believe they mean. Care to elaborate some on how you channel someone through male/female energy?
~ Wandering Scribe
I have a love-hate relationship with gender roles and sexism.
On one hand, I cannot stand the Neo Feminist movement. You know, the ones who run around screaming "patriarchy!" at every turn, and believe that only women should be allowed to make societal decisions. I happen to think that they are just as bonkers as the "patriarchy" they seek to abolish.
By that same token though, I am an old fashioned gentleman. I believe in holding doors, offering coats, buying the meal, and all those things which are now seen as demeaning. It boggles my mind though, because I was raised to offer them as a kindnesses, not as a way of insinuating gender superiority.
In an effort to curb such hostility toward basic human kindness though, I've decided to flip the whole situation on its head.
Now I hold the door for anyone: man, woman, stranger, family, date, whoever. Now I buy the meal anytime that I go with a party and I'm not the driver. I keep a closet full of coats, hoodies, sweaters, and other apparel for anyone who might happen to stop by for a walk or chat on a cold night.
After all, it can't be sexist if I'm treating everyone the same.
As for analyzing things through a gender-lens... I honestly have no idea how to tell if I am, or am not. I think that I'm always taking people at face value, where what they say is what I believe they mean. Care to elaborate some on how you channel someone through male/female energy?
~ Wandering Scribe
reply to post by darkbake
Most people only wish to, or only have the capacity to, see the artificial construct in the stead of the essence of the individual. That artificial construct would be the society that the person is living ins immutable idea of what male and female is. The essence, of course, as youve already come to know, rarely if ever follows societies rigid idea of things.
Its between seeing the shell or the core, and everyone with a little wisdom should know for fact that the society we live in (The West) sees and values only the shell as a rule of a thumb, and that is a major factor for why things are the way they are at present. One factor of many, but a major one.
Most people only wish to, or only have the capacity to, see the artificial construct in the stead of the essence of the individual. That artificial construct would be the society that the person is living ins immutable idea of what male and female is. The essence, of course, as youve already come to know, rarely if ever follows societies rigid idea of things.
Its between seeing the shell or the core, and everyone with a little wisdom should know for fact that the society we live in (The West) sees and values only the shell as a rule of a thumb, and that is a major factor for why things are the way they are at present. One factor of many, but a major one.
reply to post by CaticusMaximus
Thank you, I agree, Caticus - although I think even that shell is becoming corrupted more than ever before - I think we are in for some deep trouble, if we aren't in it already -
The last time there was this wide of a wealth gap in America was in 1922, when apparently, things were even worse than The Great Depression. Culturally, searching for positive solutions or doing anything resembling free speech or free enterprise is reacted to in a hostile manner, from what I can tell.
That could do with the fact that no one has enough money to eat, buy gas, pay rent and subscribe to Netflix unless it is a good month.
Thank you, I agree, Caticus - although I think even that shell is becoming corrupted more than ever before - I think we are in for some deep trouble, if we aren't in it already -
The last time there was this wide of a wealth gap in America was in 1922, when apparently, things were even worse than The Great Depression. Culturally, searching for positive solutions or doing anything resembling free speech or free enterprise is reacted to in a hostile manner, from what I can tell.
That could do with the fact that no one has enough money to eat, buy gas, pay rent and subscribe to Netflix unless it is a good month.
reply to post by Wandering Scribe
Well, Wandering Scribe, I agree with you - in fact, I think that the feminist movement was a trap in order to dissolve family structures to make it easier for the government to have totalitarian control.
How is anyone supposed to have any semblance of freedom when they have no family support or stability? I only have a certain amount of heart energy that I can put into a relationship, for example -
If my first relationship, and then my first hundred, are only going to last a few months each, how am I supposed to have enough energy left to make a lasting one at that point? How am I supposed to even trust someone enough to enter in a relationship with them, where I am going to be taking a gigantic risk with my heart energy, and it could be over at any time?
This kind of instability is highly dangerous - it means that we are going to be looking to the State and Corporations for our stability instead - see what I'm saying?
That gives them complete control, and they won't be nice about any of us wanting to pursue our own interests or personal / family security on corporate time, which is now every minute of our lives.
Well, Wandering Scribe, I agree with you - in fact, I think that the feminist movement was a trap in order to dissolve family structures to make it easier for the government to have totalitarian control.
How is anyone supposed to have any semblance of freedom when they have no family support or stability? I only have a certain amount of heart energy that I can put into a relationship, for example -
If my first relationship, and then my first hundred, are only going to last a few months each, how am I supposed to have enough energy left to make a lasting one at that point? How am I supposed to even trust someone enough to enter in a relationship with them, where I am going to be taking a gigantic risk with my heart energy, and it could be over at any time?
This kind of instability is highly dangerous - it means that we are going to be looking to the State and Corporations for our stability instead - see what I'm saying?
That gives them complete control, and they won't be nice about any of us wanting to pursue our own interests or personal / family security on corporate time, which is now every minute of our lives.
edit on 12-9-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
Briles1207
Sexism is very often used by women rather than men. Thats not to say that sexism is not projected by both sides, but just in my own personal expereience.
You are right about this, as well. I was trying to discuss boundary issues with a female friend of mine, because I've been working on it with my counselor, and she immediately accused me of being sexist and treating her badly because she was a woman.
I told her that she didn't appreciate me driving six hours to come visit her, and she told me that I didn't appreciate helping her set up her art work.
And... there you have it. Our society, and I am not joking, is going down the #ter.
I guess I realize I experience a lot of sexism as a guy, because women assume I'm saying things that I'm not - and this is not okay to bring up?
Who am I kidding though, we are past #ed.
A recent example is one of my good friends, a lesbian, got dumped recently by her girlfriend via text message - and she complained about it on Facebook, which I thought was legitimate. But now? She's apologizing for being rude - but...
Really? Being dumped by someone you live with via text message on your way to work Friday morning?
I guess what I'm saying is, it's not about gender, it is about healthy relationships in general - and I guess that is so progressive that it blows people's minds who are still stuck on this whole feminism thing.
We can't have a society that doesn't know how to have healthy relationships, that is ridiculous, we can't have a society that doesn't know how to keep a family together,
it affects kids when their parents divorce, not only do I know this from empirical evidence I learned about during my psychology courses, but I know from personal experience how traumatized and ruined some of my friends are, even to this day, in their 30's, because their parents divorced and they had multiple step-dads.
These kids are never going to grow up and have a stable living environment for their own kids, because someone who's parents have divorced are statistically MUCH less likely to stay in a monogamous relationship.
And this is not about gender, this is about healthy relationships and family stability, which, if we lose as a society, we are not going to be able to recover from -
----------
To be honest, the nation's trump card is probably the Mormon Church. Think about that for a moment - and discover why whether or not God exists when it comes to culture is completely irrelevant -
What is going on in this society, is cultural stability is being systematically destroyed so that it can be replaced by something much worse - sure, it feels better for a bit, but that is trick, a bait and switch.
edit on 12-9-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)