Hubble Finds Mystery Alignment of 'Butterfly' Nebulae

Originally posted by TarzanBeta

Originally posted by WhiteAlice
reply to post by TarzanBeta

 

The polarization does seem to reflect a polarizing force from within the galactic center. Considering that they suspect that a super massive blackhole may exist at our galactic center, this tilt of the nebulae is another indicator of a strong center. What makes it interesting though is that, instead of all the material being pulled toward the center, it's butterfly shaped, regardless of composition or size. That's the interesting part.

You gotta remember there isn't just gravity, but centrifugal force at work. Riiiiip.

When there is such a bipolar aspect to a nebula, it is not because of external forces (i.e., not external gravity or centrifugal force), but rather something to do with the star itself.

In this case, there are probably jets of high-energy particles being ejected from the poles of the star (along the polar axis of the star), and those particles are exciting the dust and gas surrounding the star (hence the hourglass look).

Interesting. I like when they discover something that is and has always been in plain sight. Maybe people's awareness is starting to increase, or maybe people are starting to pay attention to the young who still have open minds. Your mind does not have to close because you get older, it is just that many people tend to close their mind and believe what others say is real.

What does this mean, it means that people are starting to see the big picture.

Are all of the studied nebulae randomly distributed, or do they ocuppy certain territory, like the galactic plane or the vicinity of the nucleus?

The direction of the nebula bulges correspond to the star's rotational axis, which is determined by the direction of rotation of the gas cloud from which the star formed, right? Perhaps it's the galactic magnetic field, or the galactic rotation, that influence this?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


If you were so certain as to why it was happening, you would not have posted it as a mystery.

Whatever you name a process in physics, it doesn't matter. All things in physics are mechanical; whether they appear to be on in our field of vision or not. We refer to some things as "chemical"; but that just simply means mechanical in a dimension not readily accessible by our human senses alone.

All things in this world are mechanical.

Our understanding of gravity is somewhat limited in the "scientific" sense, but in the common sense, it is easy to see what gravity is.

Gravity is the relationship between an object and the ground. (the ground is the general term for the surface of any object, regardless of size). Now the object that has the most mass is the one that is most responsible for the level of gravity.

In the case of the galaxy, the center of the galaxy has what is very similar to a black hole. (Of course, those of us that understand know that it is impossible for the universe to have more than 1 black hole, because black holes, by today's accepted definition, are always approaching infinity; which is impossible, we know, because this universe still exists...) But there is something incredibly massive at the center of the galaxy, and it is something on a scale so grand that we are not yet able to determine its value.

THAT is the ground of the galaxy. That is the surface. That is home.

All things around it are flying around in its various levels of atmosphere. Just as with the earth, there are varying densities or layers the farther away from the center of the galaxy you go. This is the same with all things; including atoms.

Now these stars are awfully close to the ground. But they are also flying away from the ground by means of constantly falling towards the edge of the ground (instead of at the ground, or else they would land). Now the amount of gravity being applied to these stars is --tremendous--; and the fact that the stars are still in orbit means that they are falling towards the edge at a --tremendous-- rate. These rates are so tremendous that the very atoms that make up these stars are being pulled apart; not less the whole mass itself is being ripped apart.

They are too close to the center to sustain their ground. They are being pulled apart; but because of its own level of "gravity" in relation to each of its own parts, each star is slightly counteracting the pull of the ground of the central mass. Therefore why they do not completely dissipate so quickly.

Now because also they are set on the galactic plane, therefore, they are being pulled apart symmetrically to the galactic plane.

Now if they were not orbiting the central mass directly on the galactic plane, but instead, they were orbiting at an angle to it; they would therefore pass through the galactic plane twice, and the rest of the time either traveling away from the greatest force, or towards it; which would throw the stars into a wobble, and therefore, the nebulae would not be quite so symmetrical or aligned (and this is generally the norm; hence why this particular alignment seems so odd to some.)

Do I need to continue?

Imagine that you have an invulnerable body with the sharpest senses. Imagine you are standing on that central mass that seems so black to us. But you know that if you were to stand on the surface, which you could (because it is so dense, it is surely solid to a body such as ours; maybe liquid to one so much more grand); you would be standing on a surface of extreme, insane, bright light. But for now, we're going to say no light; just pure, solid, perfect, smooth, reflective surface. And you are able to look up at the sky; imagine being able to see all the levels of objects, near and far, all of which orbit around this mass (for here, you truly are the center of the galaxy).

Now imagine that it is just like earth. Imagine there is an airplane that can go nearly the speed of light. It is so large you can see it with your eye, but it is so far away that even going nearly the speed of light, it is going by just like a plane would in our earth sky.

The plane is trying to travel forward in its path, which is always away from the land, towards the edge of the sky. It loses its structural integrity; but we know in order for the plane to be going straight, because of the gravity, it must actually be trying to get away from the ground.

Now imagine the force of that airplane carrying it away and also pulling against it as it loses integrity. Pieces of plane would fly away farther up into the sky, and pieces of plane would be falling directly towards the ground.

There is explosion, then implosion. Air is forced out by the explosion up and down, and air is forced inwards (so as to fill the void) creating the hourglass. Air being anything not on the ground.

And upon a little more consideration, the spin of the masses is also very great. And the closer to the ground they get, the greater spin they will have (because the spinning of the central mass is applying spin on the masses in its inner sky, and the masses in the inner sky apply spin to the ones in the outer sky, and up to the many levels, very similarly to the way cogs work in a machine; think of a watch and its varying degrees of spin, and how they are manifest). **Also, this means that the central mass has two separate spins; an inner spin, going along with the galactic plane, and an outer spin, going perpendicular to the galactic plane; at least, for there may be many levels and densities of "spheres" within the central mass that work at a much grander level, even though the exterior is glass, the interior may be varying levels of glass, or otherworldly glass, at any rate.**

Because the spin of the masses becomes so great, there is another force acting also (though it is the fault of gravity and centripetal force, so these are the basis of this; but this is added explanation).

Centripetal force of the star itself would squeeze the star and also force out from within, or shave off from the outside and send to the poles particulate matter which would also be thrown. This working also at the same time as the explosion and the implosion.

This is an extremely slow utter chaos taking place. Caught like a polaroid picture, trapped in time, it might seem to us. But time here is not the same as time elsewhere. What we see as still is actually happening in extreme rapid motion elsewhere.

Such a really tiny silly example is watching a jet in the sky moving at Mach 3 and yet you are able to run 10 circles around the object in the sky the size of your finger with your pinky.

So these things are happening very, very rapidly, especially for their size. It only appears to be a mystery because we are so accustomed to dealing with our own physics that we rarely put our own feet off our own ground and plant them on someone / something else's ground to view.

But we have the imaginations to be able to see it happen, if we have understanding.

But how cool is that? We are literally floating around in the upper atmosphere of our central mass, our shiny, glass surfaced, extremely dense, and super-duper bright, home.

How amazing can something be? Even if the central mass does not itself produce light, or allow light to escape, it would at least reflect enough light for our eyes to receive before the light was taken away again. So we are walking a perfectly smooth and reflective black landscape whose landscape is nothing but all the objects which orbit it; but we cannot look up and see these things, because we are not able to take in the light in that direction; but we look down, at our feet, and see the reflection of what is in the sky. And that is how we navigate.

It's like we are walking on the ceiling, enjoying all of its utter, insane, beauty...

We would say, "Let us jog to the area of Sol!" And we would.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Hubble Finds Mystery Alignment of 'Butterfly' Nebulae

This is interesting. Using the Hubble telescope and the European Southern Observatory's New Technology Telescope (or NTT) to view more than 100 planetary nebulae near the center of our galaxy, astronomers have found an unexpected alignment of many Bipolar planetary nebulae -- which are "butterfly"-shaped or "hourglass"-shaped nebulae. The long axes of these nebulae tend to align with the plane of the galaxy.

Astronomers have used the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope and ESO's New Technology Telescope to explore more than 100 planetary nebulae in the central bulge of our galaxy. They have found that butterfly-shaped members of this cosmic family tend to be mysteriously aligned — a surprising result given their different histories and varied properties....

..."This really is a surprising find and, if it holds true, a very important one," explains Bryan Rees of the University of Manchester, one of the paper's two authors. "Many of these ghostly butterflies appear to have their long axes aligned along the plane of our galaxy."

What makes this to be a surprising find is that astronomers don't see any interaction or past history among these nebulae. However, it seems to me that there could be some mechanical process in the creation of these nebulae that is reacting with some previously unknown structure to the galaxy...

...i.e., there is some aspect of the manner in which the galaxy works that is causing this alignment.

Well, the alignment of the stars in our galaxy, is caused by the massive black hole at it's centre (the same can probably be said for every other galaxy).

So could there be a distant truly super massive black hole that's causing this alignment of galaxies?

If so it would be surprising if it's location wasn't that of the 'big bang'.

have any of you ever speculated or wondered if there were white holes out there? by white holes I mean the exact opposite of a black hole. I've always had this little theory in my head that all the matter that gets sucked into a black hole either get spit out a white hole in another universe or dimension or get spit out a white hole somewhere else in our own universe, nature's way of recycling itself over and over again thus ensuring that no matter what the universe will go on forever. or you could look at it as nature's fail safe. suppose over a billion years some biological special develops some kind of robot that replicates itself and has intelligence and over millions of years this new robot species takes over the universe in a sense by replicating itself billions and trillions of times over and just spreading itself like a never ending plague or virus. this would be the universe's way of making sure that at some point it starts back from zero and gives it a fresh start for things to start over, life to begin a new on different planets throughout the universe. you can take out my robots theory and place in anyone that you may have, like for instance a regular species such as ourselves getting too much technology and learning how to essentially live forever and spread from planet to planet over millions of years until we essentially inhabit the entire universe only along the way we did it in an evil way by destroying other civilizations and taking their resources and using them for our own purposes to survive. any scenario you can think of will work with my universes failsafe theory. White & Black holes! seriously, think about it!

-Anathema777

Double post sorry

reply to post by anathema777


Blacks holes are the white holes.

What we perceive to be black is actually white. What we perceive to be disappearing is really amassing.

What we see on this side is different on the other side of the event. The other side of the event expresses the emission. This side of the event expresses the absorption.

Time is not working the same way that you think there. It's ticking on a different clock. However, the time in relation to the space, of itself, is functioning within reason. It is just does not immediately seem like reason to us because we choose to judge the event by the experience to which we relate.

Now space may be pulled more on one side of the mass than another, therefore creating what we might discern as an anomaly; and that anomaly may present an object which to us does not exist, but it truly exists; but because we discern from our relative experience, it is an anomaly.

Then, in that case, it is possible that we might perceive something like a "white hole" that -seems- to be connected to the "black hole".

But the mechanical reality of that is false. Just merely our limited perception that interferes with our ability to truly understand; if we rely too much upon our perception.

After giving this some serious thought, i have concluded that its all down to initial mass of star and gyroscopic influences.
I am not going to write a thesis though....

Originally posted by McGinty
Well, the alignment of the stars in our galaxy, is caused by the massive black hole at it's centre (the same can probably be said for every other galaxy).

So could there be a distant truly super massive black hole that's causing this alignment of galaxies?

If so it would be surprising if it's location wasn't that of the 'big bang'.

Is there an alignment of galaxies? I don't think there is.

In the case of these nebulae, the alignment of these bipolar "butterfly/hourglass" nebulae is that the long axes is aligned with the long axis of the galaxy, which may mean that the "North-South" axes of the stars in these nebulae are perpendicular to the north-south axis of the galaxy -- therefore, they is NOT oriented the same way as the galaxy.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Ah yes, I was too lazy to spot this in the original post. So these "butterflies" are effectively horizontal. This makes me think of the possible influence of the galactic magnetic field (if there is a such a thing). Picture the magnetic field surrounding the galactic plane, with the field lines going perpendicular to the plane. A collapsing molecular cloud needs only the slightest influence to start spinning in one direction or the other. Could the magnetic field lines provide such influence?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


So if you go back and read, then you will see the examples fit...

---

As well, for the last poster, magnetism is still mechanical. On the atomic level, but mechanical never-the-less.

They are the -exact- same forces. They are just at various dimensions / levels / layers; whatever makes you smile when you consider. These various forces, having the exact same physical functions, are simply named differently based upon their spacial/temporal relativity.

But the functions are the same.

Notice how the toroid picture is a perfect static (or time-lapse) drawing of the events which I proposed.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


I'm sorry, but your posts don't make any sense. I've never heard of "various levels or layers" in physics, unless you mean energy levels of electrons.

reply to post by wildespace


If you're going to stay within the system, you're not going to solve mysteries outside of the system.

Wisdom and understanding isn't just about what is "on the books"; it's wisdom and understanding for your own personal interest as well. So if you're attempting to look at scientific mysteries from the point of view of trying to add to the books, you're never going to get anywhere.

“The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.”

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”

“Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death”

“It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.”

“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

“The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.”

- Albert Einstein

From the man whose limited understanding eventually led, by means of others, to the current system.

Something which was never intended, but was made so by those who were too lazy to continue seeking, but to simply attempt to expand on what knowledge had been given them.

I do not claim to be 100% correct with my words in attempting to understanding what my imagination is able to comprehend. But if you will truly consider the universe with the amazing imagination you have been given (but keep to honesty, not silliness and utter fantasy like some have done, failing to have the reasonable foundation of the experience around us to stand upon); then I think you will begin to see some wisdom in what I am sharing with you.

I would like to point out that user symptomoftheuniverse applied and found understanding. Though that user is unwilling to provide personal insight into the matter.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
I would like to point out that user symptomoftheuniverse applied and found understanding. Though that user is unwilling to provide personal insight into the matter.

stars of a certain mass orbiting a galaxy will after a nova exhibit what has been observed. Like bits of debris in a whirlpool. Different size debris will have different behaviours as it circles away. And like forrest gump says"thats all id like to say about that"

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Einstein's theories were confirmed though experiments and observations, as well as worked on and expanded by many other scientists. Can your theories stand up to the same scrutiny?

Science is self-refining and self-improving. If your theories are true, sooner or later they will enter the books.

The Electric Universe proponents take a stab at the standard model in the light of this new discovery:
www.youtube.com...


So what is the mainstream science's stand on this?

wildespace
The Electric Universe proponents take a stab at the standard model in the light of this new discovery:
www.youtube.com...

So what is the mainstream science's stand on this?

The man speak (Wal Thornhill) is at least partly incorrect about the visible parts of these bipolar "hourglass" nebulae. He says that according to the standard model, the polar axis of the star in parallel with the dust disc. This is not actually correct, and a misrepresentation of what it actually happening.

There is in fact a cloud of material surrounding these stars, but the REASON parts of the cloud of material is visible at all is (according to the standard model) that there are jets of energetic particles being emitted from the star, and those jets are being emitted from the North and South poles, in a direction away from the poles. These energetic particles then excite SOME of the material surrounding the star in the direction those particles are moving -- along the north-south axis -- and some of that material begins to glow due to the energetic particles interacting with it.

THEREFORE, The reason the north and south part of the nebulae are visible is BECAUSE of the particles that are moving in the north and south direction. There is other material surrounding the entire star, but much of it is invisible because these energy beams are along the north-south axis.


I'm not sure if Wal Thornhill is intentionally misrepresenting this in order to promote the electric theory, or if is simply not understanding what the standard model is saying about these bipolar nebulae, but either way, his description of the standard explanation for these bipolar nebulae is incorrect.