The concept of Hell

Hey guys. This is my first time starting a post on ATS. I wish this one didn't have to be a sensitive topic, but given the times, the state of the world, the potential for WW3 to erupt at any given moment and the wild goose egg chase that everybody seems to be partaking in to find answers in time, the endless religious wars, the rising tensions in the middle east, biblical prophecies being fulfilled etc.. I feel this topic is only fitting. My question for you all is, " Is the literal fire and brimstone concept of Hell being an endless torture chamber for all of eternity valid? Is it a lie perpetuated by the church? Does it exist just albeit in a less literal form but more of a symbolic kind of state of separation from God in the afterlife?
It's been a concept that has boggled the minds of many scholars, It's been a concept that has undeniably fueled massive amounts of anxiety, fear and complete dread. It has been used as a form of control. ( I believe in the bible, but I will never be ok with a fire and brimstone evangelical preacher utilizing fear tactics to "convert" a soul. I have always found this to be an incredibly barbaric, self serving display of religion. Many within the evangelical circles I have conversed with seem to be so intent on winning souls, but I came across a rude awakening that their motives for this has absolutely nothing to do with their genuine concern, love and compassion for that individual as a soul, but rather their witnessing and evangelism served as something that eased their own sense of fear , their own guilt and ultimately created a self serving illusion that winning souls for Christ would in some way , shape or form help them win brownie points with God.
From what I have researched, the concept of Hell as we know it today was never understood by the apostles around Jesus's time and shortly thereafter. In fact the word "Hell" from what I have read I actually translated as "Hades" Hades simply meant "death". It's my honest belief that If one does not come to experience the re birth of the holy spirit that was given as a gift through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, than the judgement they experience is in fact separation from God as advocates of the literal "Hell" would have you believe. Where I differ?- I believe they cease to exist, and that is the tragedy is not being able to live in eternity with Christ.
There are many verses that back this up- Ecclesiastes 9:5 ► For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

If one's soul was being tortured in an eternal lake of fire day and night, how is it possible that the "dead know not any thing"? You want to tell me they wouldn't know they were in agony?

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."- the wages of sin id death, not an eternal hell fire. Furthermore, if you believe the biblical writers were just toning it down and not going into detail by just saying death, not death than eternity in hell, I ask you this. When God said to Adam and Eve in genesis 2:17-
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." - I think any Biblical Scholar who has truly studied the word of God could tell you Adam and Eve most certainly did not go to a literal eternity in a place called Hell because they disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit. And any that would be naïve enough to say they did go there would probably be the same backwards thinkers that would say all religions, races and tribes of people that came way before Jesus Christ went there too. It's not just naïve and shortsighted, if anything it shows the complete lack of a true genuine connection with God at all, because it puts God in a box, and assumes that man is more wise than his creator and believes that God would find no other way to connect with humanity and save them prior to the death and resurrection of Christ.

I also believe if the concept of God being an eternal torturer is true, than humanity would not come to him out of genuine love and amazement for his grace showed to them on the cross, but rather would come to him only out of fear of not going to hell. It would also greatly call into question God's character, and I can't ever imagine a circumstance in heaven where believers would be ok knowing some of their loved ones are being poked, prodded and tortured alive 24/7 for all of eternity, the thought is beyond repulsing, and It's shocking to believe humanity has become so barbaric in their thinking as to institute these belief systems into play.
I believe in the bible, I believe in Jesus Christ as God and one may say I'm not credible if I don't believe in Hell but believe in Heaven- my response is that is a conditioned response and tradition to believe you cannot have one without the other. But God actually makes it clear when you read between the lines, that Hell is an eternal death/ annihilation- meaning once you die without repentance and acceptance of Christ you simply cease to be.
Would love to hear your feedback and thoughts...

reply to post by freedom7


Hell: Trying to debate anything religion based on ATS from a logical standpoint

reply to post by freedom7

Is the literal fire and brimstone concept of Hell being an endless torture chamber for all of eternity valid?

If it were it would make Hitler look like a boy-scout by comparison. Thats why I don't believe in that version of it.

Why would a loving God torture people forever?

reply to post by freedom7


A logical problem with Hell...

Two parts in the series...

Considering making a third too...

Hell is a means of control... and conversion based on mans fear of the unknown...

Nothing more then a myth

You took the words right out of my mouth with the Hitler comment. I've long wrestled with the idea that a loving God could give paradise to some, but flip a switch and in a heart beat create a torture chamber and enslave his own creation in there. Even when I was young, and being taught this teaching I still felt like something was just so so wrong, something about it was just off. I will never forget when my friend's Dad passed away suddenly , he did not believe in God either. this used to keep me up at night because at the time, I was diving heavy into the bible, and had many preachers teach me of eternal torture. He had a heart of Gold, and it was inconceivable that a loving God would create even more torture upon this man, who just withered away slowly in pain just before that. I even confronted a Christian Man who is very literal in his belief of the bible with this question- Do you really believe a loving God was waiting for a staggering majority of the Jews killed in the holocaust to rise up to his judgement seat, only to send them to an even worse fate in hell below, one that would be 10000000x worse and never end? I asked him if that would sit well with him and Christians in heaven? His response was, I cannot even fathom God would do that..
Humans are beginning to see through a lot of the mind control tactics inflicted upon us like a plague. I always thought this was just limited to indoctrination through mainstream media, education systems, pharmaceutical studies etc... via the powers that be. I have since began really taking the blinders off my eyes and now know beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the secret societies have infiltrated every single religious movement. The only church that is not cursed is the church of brotherly love- Jesus's commandment to Love God and love others with all your heart. 99% of the rest is just pure indoctrination that if anything grieves the holy spirit

Akragon, I like your points on the links to your post! Keep an open mind, never stop questioning, and trust the true Creator Yahshua to lead you to the truth.

God bless you all

reply to post by freedom7


Thanks...

Unfortunately I don't believe Jesus was God... But that's for another thread...

Originally posted by freedom7
My question for you all is, " Is the literal fire and brimstone concept of Hell being an endless torture chamber for all of eternity valid?

Yes

Originally posted by freedom7
Is it a lie perpetuated by the church?

No

Originally posted by freedom7
Does it exist just albeit in a less literal form but more of a symbolic kind of state of separation from God in the afterlife?

No lesser form. No symbolics

"Hell" is based on:

pagan philosophy
pagan theology
pagan myth
bad Bible translations
bad church/Church doctrine
twisted Scripture
epic poetry (Dante, Milton, etc.)
other fictional accounts
EweToob vids
unproved and unprovable dreams, NDE's, visions, etc.
outright lies

Hell is a 404.

reply to post by freedom7


I had a dream the other night. These are the words I heard:

"I originally created Hell for the fallen angels and their legions. I did not create hell for my children. Why has thou fallen so low so as to pit yourselves in equality with the very rebellious angels that will forever be separated from me because they rejected ME. You have strayed so far from me that I can no longer make obvious the bridge that I sent you in order to return to ME? I Will give you over to your willful rejection, desire to sleep and conscious blindness until you are reprobate."

That was my dream and it ended there with a fiery ball lit up in a brilliant red light with smoke trailing as it hurled across the clear blue sky towards earth.

Judgement comes with fire because it is the last time for mankind.

Intense dream!!

the post about the concept of hell being mixed in with bad biblical translations, pagan mythology etc... seems to be a lot of the dialogue im diving into, and uncovering.
Let me ask you guys, do you feel people who come on here and advocate Hell has to be a literal fiery torture chamber have just neglected diving into anything deeper, because they are so imprisoned by their fears? Do you feel it's strictly upbringing, what you're brainwashed to believe?
it seems from everything Ive observed and personally experienced, that no two people exactly are alike. And some personalities and imaginations are much more emotionally hard wired, and thus more vulnerable to dangerous teachings. Simply because fear corrodes the mind, and does not allow one to think rationally whatsoever. I've meant people who could watch entire documentaries on hell and laugh it off. Not just atheists either, but people who believe in creation. It has to be the way we're wired ( nature) in combination with the theology we're raised in ( nurture). My heart goes out to all of you who have had the doctrines of eternal torture keep you living in constant dread, terror, fear, guilt, shame. ( take it from me, this is not from a spirit of God. Why I know this? Because I am one of those emotionally scared people from this topic, and if anything it made me resent God, discouraged me from learning more about the bible, isolated me from my peers, even led to me being institiutionalized due to crippling anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder and pure phobia of anything religious related. It's an absolute miracle that God has brought me through a lot of this, and is waking me up to the fact that just because a hardcore evangelist raises his voice, and ushers in words like DAMN THE SINNER TO THE LAKE OF FIRE! It does not mean he really has any true relationship with God, any true understandings of the mystery of the after life that no living being can truly experience. I'm beginning to see that rule applies for everything within the bible. Like It says in Jeremiah- "Seek me with all your heart and you will find me" that is a collective, but mostly PERSONAL journey, where you can find the truth only when you truly let down all your guards, surrender to Christ and embrace for a journey to uncover truths, that ultimately lead to what jesus said would set you free!

reply to post by freedom7


Hi...I normally stay out of the religious threads but for some reason I came to this one and I read it. Very interesting my friend. I am a Christian and I don't think that hell is a place where people go to burn for all eternity...I was raised to believe that if you didn't 'believe' you would go to this place.

I believe there is a heaven and I think hell may be a place for lucifer and his angels. And then I think about the evil people out in this world and where do they go when they die....maybe those people's souls are just bad and when they do die, they keep being reincarnated or they create their own hell in the afterlife...oh I'm sorry I'm just ramblin my crazy thoughts...

I don't believe in a hell that I was taught about

reply to post by natalia


the whole concept of hell is kinda funny to tell you the truth... its illogical from start to finish...

But you think Christians have it bad...

Imagine how the gnostics felt about Hell... they must have been terrified of the idea!!

read this...

Are you afraid of hell?

Hell is the death state. In Old English, "hell" meant to bury or cover up, like "helling" potatoes or helling your roof (with thatch).

"The soul that sins shall die". It doesn't say that the soul that sins shall be tortured for all eternity.

You very correctly pointed out the verse about "the dead know not anything". According to the hell myth, people are more alive after they're buried than they were when still breathing. (The concept of ghosts and "afterlife", etc. is all myth.) And the lake of fire IS reserved for Satan and his followers. Even with that said, there will come a time when hell and death are destroyed.

Another point regarding so-called hell is the belief that when you die (in your sins) you go to hell. There will be A (singular) judgment day. To immediately send someone to hell before that day would not be righteous and I think most Christians can agree that God is righteous.

The whole concept of hell and why it is an erroneous, paganistic belief is thoroughly and eloquently revealed in a book entitled "Life, Death, Hereafter" by S.L. Johnson. It explains all those verses about the bosom of Abraham, etc.

- you use a lot of words, Freedom,
[and most of it sound good] ,
but please make your position clear :

- do you think there is a hell, y/n ?

- or do you think, hell is metaphoric, and at the end, all people will be reconciled again, y/n ?

thanks

Text If one's soul was being tortured in an eternal lake of fire day and night, how is it possible that the "dead know not any thing"? You want to tell me they wouldn't know they were in agony?

reply to post by freedom7


freedom7,

Understanding hell depends upon how you interpret the bible.

When Abraham was alive, his offspring were as divided then as they are today. The belief of some his offspring at that time was that there was a collective place for the spirits of the dead souls. That place was in the center of this earth called Sheol. Then the idea was introduced that if they were governed by rules of the seven Noahic laws and punished by disobedience while alive, why would they not also be punished in Sheol as conscious spirits? This was a gradual teaching and became the normal teaching with time. In other words it evolved in thought.

This separation soon became known as the Bosom of Abraham or Paradise for the good spirits and Gehenna (Hebrew) or Hell (Greek) for the bad spirits. You can read this in the book of Luke. So Paradise and Hell were places in Sheol for the spirits of the Hebrews at the time of Jesus.

The Apostle John tells us that the bad spirits that are placed in Hell do not actually burn in Hell but are very uncomfortable with the heat from the fires of Hell. The book of Revelations of Jesus to John tells us that when the end of this universe comes and a final judgment is made that hell is automatically cast into the lake of fire along with all that is in Hell. In other words as a spirit enters either Paradise or Hell that spirit has already been judged and is not judged twice. The only judgement will be for those who are alive when the world ends. This is called the white throne (end time) judgment.

As death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire it is called the second death or the death of the spirit. It is believed by some that as the spirit dies in the lake of fire it will lose consciousness and only the worm (Image) will be seen in this ethereal fire. You can see this in Isaiah the 66th chapter. Some camps believe that the spirit is tormented forever while others believe that the spirit dies just as the body dies.

So in effect it all depends up-on your studies and interpretation of scripture. There are even differences in rabbinic teaching on this subject. My own belief is that the bad spirit will die the second death and lose consciousness and the good spirit will live forever in New Jerusalem and eat the fruit and drink the water of life. Without the water and food of life the spirit cannot survive according to the Apostle John.

The spirit that is dead is not aware of the life while it was alive. It is forever cut off from the living soul. That is what is meant that they know nothing. It is not that they are unconscious. What would be the point of a Paradise and Hell if everyone is unconscious?

Hell low how low can you go hello below muhahhahhahher.

reply to post by freedom7


If you read the bible, hell is a reality. It even describe what hell is like. It is a place of torment and fire. We cannot simply ignore what was written and base your unbelief of it on a couple of verses.

Fear is a great method of control. There is absolutely no basis in reality or logic for a place like hell, and it is a conversion tactic to make people believe the unbelievable, period.

If you believe in a place like hell, you are afraid of the idea of going there. The only reason people believe Christian doctrine is because of the consequences that a place like hell brings. That's a fact.

Hell is not in the scriptures .Hades, Gehenna and Tartaros are the 3 words translated hell in the NT.Hades being the prominent means the grave the realm of the dead the realm of imperception.However The Truth is...Yahoshua is the savior of ALL mankind .That is what his name (nature)means God IS salvation.Yahoshua IS saving EVERYONE.

The terms of salvation are this ..you are being saved.There are no other requirements.. it is 100% Gods doing.No one "chooses" to be saved.That is another false doctrine of men (of the multitude) God chose and he is choosing everyone in their own order.Physical death is not a cutoff period.The scriptures say nothing of this (no Heb 9:27 does not mean that ).

This false doctrine of men falls in line with how man does not know God.They have completely misjudged his character.How could so many callously and frivolously truly believe and be infected by a heinous doctrine like hell and truly know God.Fortunately God knows all of this and understands completely.That is what God is saving them from.The most cumulative infectious "disease" there is... religion.The very thing most people think has made them well!!Who thinks they need to be healed of that ..and that is the quandary man is in.

Mankind is completely blind to their true illness that they need saving from.This is the core of all death.Physical death is just one death.The good news is God is the savior of ALL mankind regardless of their condition or their efforts or non effort.Is God just .... Yes....men have no concept of just judgment.God has proved that by mans blindness to his deepest illness religion.

The crux is man thinks they believe in God and that's all there is however belief is not knowing .Gods purpose is that all will KNOW him not just believe in him.Salvation is an infinite process not an event.He is saving ALL mankind not ONE will be lost or annihilated.That is the foolishness of mens doctrines and the perversion of the carnal mind that is at enmity with God.

Here are the scriptures that testify of Gods absolute salvation of ALL mankind.However only God can reveal the Truth of God is salvation to man.No one chooses to know.


1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Philp 2:9 God also has highly exalted him, and given him a NAME (Yahoshua... God is salvation) which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus(Yahoshua) EVERY knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb. 2:9 "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE world."

1Timothy 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL WILL come to repentance."

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN."

1 John 4:14 We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior(Yahoshua) of the WORLD."

1 John 2:2.he (Yahoshua) "is" the sacrifice for our sins, and NOT for ours only but ALSO for the WHOLE world

1 Tim. 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and BELIEVE not, I judge him NOT: for I came NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to SAVE the world.