Were These Really Used To Take Over 4 Plane's ?

a reply to: Zaphod58

"Boxcutter" was a term used by the media in describing the knives used by the hijackers.

Utility knife or tactical knife would be better descriptions

Here is list of knives purchased by the hijackers just prior to 9/11

www.historycommons.org...

Here is knife seized from Zacharais Mouissaoui when arrested month before 9/11

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

More knives from Moussaoui

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

Can see type of knives favored by hijackers

a reply to: BASSPLYR

One defense against person with a knife or blade is to wrap or drap arm with piece of clothing (jacket, towel, blanket)
and hold out in front. Been used for millennium Roman gladiator used it - called MANICA .

Renaissance swordsman were taught to use hats/cloaks as distraction devices or to parry an opponents blade

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

that's a documented fact that the biggest terrorist attack on American soil was pulled off with box cutters: all the 4 airplanes' survivors confirmed that ...

a reply to: fireladdie

Good post you are correct about using items of clothing as light armor, as distractions or as actual weapons.


In south east Asia there are several martial arts that teach the use of the sarong. Mainly you will see this in some branches of Silat or Kali and some kuntaw. When attacked they will use the sarong to trap opponents weapons or arms to disarm or subdue them. Even will use them to strangle the opponents after disabling.

I can't do it. And most people can't. But I've seen people who can and I guess if you grew up learning that as part of your combative set then yeah you could pull that off. But most people would not be able to if they were just trying it off the fly.

As for wrapping the forearms in cloth. Hey any kinda armor helps. But in a close quarters situation a guy with a blade is going to be very fluidic and fast. The cloth might stop the first slash. But the crazy guy is closing and now basically shoulder to shoulder and making zorro slashing patterns across your ribs, coming up over your shoulder and slashing your face or collar/ neck and then leaning in with the pointy end forward plunging into whichever part of your torso or worse that makes contact to absorb the impact of basically a body check with a knife. So yeah it helps to have a shirt wrapped around your arm... For about half second and then the guy is snaking past your forearm and doing bad things.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Thats assuming you are just going to stand there and let the terrorists stab and slash at you

Point is to protect yourself while getting your own shots in

At my gym saw a flyer by martial arts instructor who teaches classes there for upcoming class on
defending yourself against knife attacks

Considering taking the class......

originally posted by: TheBolt
a reply to: Vaedur

Larry said "pull" as in "pull" the emergency personnel from the building and stop fighting the fire IMO. he was talking about all the people who died, so they just pulled the firefighters off building 7.

This is what Larry said as a later explanation. Can anyone show where this was corroborated by the fire department? I don't believe for a second he meant "pull" the detonators of pre-rigged explosives and that he simply made an unfortunate choice of words, but I do wonder why the fire department would care much what any civilian thought they should or shouldn't do concerning the lives of their men. Also, there was no one in the building at that time. They were not fighting the fires so why would they need to pull anybody?

I don't really know the situation with the building, but their were emergency personnel everywhere in that plaza. To tell them not to worry about his building during that day, makes sense to me.

a reply to: Vaedur

From reports I saw before, after the towers came down there was a severed water main in the area, so they were having trouble getting water to building 7 to fight the fire.

a reply to: fireladdie

You are going to get cut even if you are doing a good job fending. When a blade is introduced everyone gets cut including the wielder.

That being said, definitely take the course. But do your do diligence first. There are a lot of clueless teachers out there teaching mcdojo knife defenses. Learn from someone like that and you are just learning stuff that will get you killed. If the course your looking into is taught by a kali, arnis, escrima, kalis ilustrissimo, cebuano, sayok, silat, serak, panglipur, shistar vidiya, kuntaw, or has a portion of it's curriculum based off of that than it's pretty legit for blade defense.

Growing up I had an Aikido master I was studying from. We were doing a public access TV demonstration one evening. I was part of the demo team at the time. We were doing the demo live on the air at the local public access station on hard soundstage concrete. When it became time for the master to do his knife defense demo we looked around and realized in our haste to pack up the dojo and get to the studio we forgot to pack the rubber demonstration knife. Were live on TV and time is sorta critical, the master looks around sees a real kitchen knife on the sets kitchenette/sink. says F it this will do and proceeds to do the demo on live TV with a real knife against unscripted techniques. When all was said and done a minute later the master was unscathed and the poor student assisting hands were beet red from slapping the cement doing the break falls. We learned that day why he was called a Master in what he does.

So knife defense is doable, if you are really, really good. But mostly you are going to get cut. There is no real adequate defense realistically from a knife that you will learn in a single seminar. It will take years.

a reply to: Vaedur

6 Months after 9/11 went to seminar given by FDNY on operations at the WTC. Listened as the incident commanders
described operations in WTC towers and at WTC 7

Also know several people who worked in WTC 7 and were there that day.

WTC 7 was evacuated following aircraft impact into the North Tower. At that time (8:45 AM) many people had not arrived Port Authority, who run PATH Commuter trains into NYC including station under WTC, shut down the trains keeping thousands back in NJ. Those already in WTC 7 were evacuated. WTC 7 was cleared by 9:30 AM.

When WTC towers came down, especially WTC 1 (North Tower) which inflicted severe damage to south side of the
building, the collapse cut the water mains to the area.

At around 1100AM , FDNY despite hundreds of responders dead or missing and dozens of apparatus destroyed made an
attempt on WTC 7. If read accounts by FIREHOUSE magazine find that crews were forced to scavenge damaged fire trucks for equipment (Hose, tools, SCBA). Others report low water pressure with hose streams.

Entering WTC 7 found severe structural damage to building, standpipe systems in building were dry - no water available
inside building to fight fires. Crews reported fires on multiple floors from burning debris from WTC 1. Fires which were small, but without water quickly began spreading.

Around 1230PM the incident commanders reacting to reports from crews searching WTC 7 ordered everyone out.

This is the infamous "PULL" so beloved by truthers

A surveyors transit arrived with collapse unit from Rescue 3 - transit was set up and locked in position on corner of building . By 2PM could see bulge on SW corner of WTC 7, bulge grew to 3 stories. 230PM transit showed building was
moving out of plumb. Collapse of WTC 7 was anticipated do to spreading fires and structural damage.

3PM - Collapse zone established around WTC 7. Collapse zone is 1.5 height of building, WTC 7 was 47 floors, 610 feet
Zone was over 900 ft. Crews working in neighboting building (World Financial Center, WTC debris pile ) were ordered out
of the area. Took until around 5PM to get everyone and remaining fire apparatus clear

WTC 7 came down at 5:20 PM severely damaging adjacent Verizon Building (140 West) and crushing Fiterman Hall
(30 West Broadway), building of Manhattan Community College , across Barclay St (4 lane highway) from WTC 7

a reply to: fireladdie

That's some good information and I thank you for sharing. I think you should try to clear something up to really cement the argument. You say this:

Around 1230PM the incident commanders reacting to reports from crews searching WTC 7 ordered everyone out. This is the infamous "PULL" so beloved by truthers

This leads me to believe the incident commanders talked it over, took into consideration the information relayed inside, and decided to abandon efforts to fight the fires. This is all internal. Where does Silverstein fit in to this? Was he mentioned in this seminar?

a reply to: TheBolt

Chief Daniel Nigro, who succeeded to command of FDNY following death of Chief Peter Ganci when North Tower collapsed
called Larry Silverstein - as Nigro said this was purely a courtesy call informing him that WTC 7 was being abandoned
and left to burn

Truthers contend this was Silverstein telling Nigro to "pull" ie. demolish the building so could collect insurance

1) Fire Chief has complete authority on the scene and can have anyone removed or even arrested

2) WTC 7 was owned by Silverstein unlike rest of WTC complex which was leased from Port Authority

a reply to: andy06shake

Of course I would, if I knew. I dare say, however, that I've got a bit more experience in these things than the average commuting business type person, or someone going on vacation... I'll respond a bit differently than they would, I think.

They didn't, or so I surmise from the end results. If they knew, they knew too late...

Better hurt, but able to heal, then to be dead.

originally posted by: fireladdie
a reply to: Vaedur

6 Months after 9/11 went to seminar given by FDNY on operations at the WTC. Listened as the incident commanders
described operations in WTC towers and at WTC 7

Also know several people who worked in WTC 7 and were there that day.

WTC 7 was evacuated following aircraft impact into the North Tower. At that time (8:45 AM) many people had not arrived Port Authority, who run PATH Commuter trains into NYC including station under WTC, shut down the trains keeping thousands back in NJ. Those already in WTC 7 were evacuated. WTC 7 was cleared by 9:30 AM.

When WTC towers came down, especially WTC 1 (North Tower) which inflicted severe damage to south side of the
building, the collapse cut the water mains to the area.

At around 1100AM , FDNY despite hundreds of responders dead or missing and dozens of apparatus destroyed made an
attempt on WTC 7. If read accounts by FIREHOUSE magazine find that crews were forced to scavenge damaged fire trucks for equipment (Hose, tools, SCBA). Others report low water pressure with hose streams.

Entering WTC 7 found severe structural damage to building, standpipe systems in building were dry - no water available
inside building to fight fires. Crews reported fires on multiple floors from burning debris from WTC 1. Fires which were small, but without water quickly began spreading.

Around 1230PM the incident commanders reacting to reports from crews searching WTC 7 ordered everyone out.

This is the infamous "PULL" so beloved by truthers

A surveyors transit arrived with collapse unit from Rescue 3 - transit was set up and locked in position on corner of building . By 2PM could see bulge on SW corner of WTC 7, bulge grew to 3 stories. 230PM transit showed building was
moving out of plumb. Collapse of WTC 7 was anticipated do to spreading fires and structural damage.

3PM - Collapse zone established around WTC 7. Collapse zone is 1.5 height of building, WTC 7 was 47 floors, 610 feet
Zone was over 900 ft. Crews working in neighboting building (World Financial Center, WTC debris pile ) were ordered out
of the area. Took until around 5PM to get everyone and remaining fire apparatus clear

WTC 7 came down at 5:20 PM severely damaging adjacent Verizon Building (140 West) and crushing Fiterman Hall
(30 West Broadway), building of Manhattan Community College , across Barclay St (4 lane highway) from WTC 7

Dude seriously, thank you. For years I pointed to this as the most damning piece of evidence. Then, eventually, I switched my opinion to what he meant, and think this is the most misunderstood or manipulated line by truthers. Then you writing this kind of ties up lose ends in my mind I have had for a long time, and I just appreciate more then you know. Thanks!

a reply to: fireladdie

Thanks. There you have it. That still doesn't explain why Silverstein just happened to have an appt and wasn't in the towers as usual! (Just kidding. I couldn't resist).

This...



was used to melt this...



in an hour.

So, box cutters to threaten unarmed people seems quite plausible, in this context.

a reply to: MagmaCumsLoudly

This...



was used to melt this...



in an hour.

Here we go again.
I suggest you ask your local fire department if they would ever enter a burning Walmart.

They might have. Maybe nobody envisioned a suicide attack, but "just" a lengthy hostage situation.

I was under the impression these terrorists used some kind of gas or nerve agent at the front of the planes preventing anyone approaching the cockpit area. The flight attendants weren't even sure if they were being hijacked. If the pilots were knocked out with gas too that may also explain why they never sent a hijack alert, they never had a chance. I'd imagine you'd want to sedate or passify your passengers in such a high pressure situation as best you can...

a reply to: Insolubrious

They used pepper spray on AA11. Pepper spray was incredibly easy to sneak past security because of the container type. It was easy to miss, especially if there were a lot of denser objects around it.

a reply to: Insolubrious

As ZAPHOD58 said used pepper spray in first class cabin on AA11 to force passengers back into main cabin

Objective was to create a buffer zone between cockpit and the passengers - giving them some time and space

On UNITED93 had hijacker with fake bomb in first class cabin to keep passengers back - didn't work

As they rushed the cockpit passengers apparently beat this raghead POS to death