Good lord, people. Think about what you're believing in!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Jesus has made numerous mention of hell and fire. Do I really need to copy and paste the relevant selections? I'd rather not, I'm sure you have a Bible. Or at the very least, you know how to use Google.

reply to post by Revolution9

So, now knowing that this is all it is about, what is your problem with people like me?

No problem with you or anyone. It's a matter of, if you're going to believe in this crap then stop only playing at it.

I mean, if you're going to buy into the biblical god then you have to buy into the Serpent, the Great Deceiver, the Evil one.

If you can say, "God can do anything because, well, god is GOD!" then until this almighty being gets off his lazy a$$ and puts down this monster, then you have to also agree that Satan can do anything because, well, Satan is SATAN! So, if you truly believe in your religion, if you truly believe in your god, then you HAVE to suffer from paralyzing fear of the Devil.

If you don't fear the Devil, then you're just playing at being religious. What good is that????

reply to post by jmdewey60

You will be frightened anyway when the demons come to take you to Hell. The difference will be that you will have no one to call out to when that time comes.

This sounds very much like YOU believe in hell and evil and demons and Satan. And yet, here you are, unafraid of him. If you gave this biblical beast the fearful respect he deserves then you would be too frightened to even talk about him and his legion. For people like you, every step you take in life (every second of every day) should be fraught with mind numbing fear of sinning.

And, for people like you, if you believe in the Great Deceiver, then you have to accept that no simple human would be able to withstand the temptations wrought by this Master Manipulator.

So, either believe in the god story, and all of the dark side that goes with it, or stop making religion a part time hobby. Either you fear the Devil with every fiber of your being, or you don't believe in any of it. No god, no devil, no Jesus, no Mohammed, nothing. Believe or don't believe, but don't sit on the fence.

reply to post by colbe

Did you mispeak? Why did you begin your thread title with "Good lord?"

I am also a master manipulator. I knew my title would draw you in. So, if my little mind can pull your strings, do you actually think you have any chance at all of denying the temptations of Satan?

reply to post by guitarplayer

Please give biblical reference to your belief in hell.

Not my beliefs. They're yours. You think I didn't see your signature?

reply to post by MamaJ

I receive answers through dreams and literature I read. Once you have that first revelation (something revealed to you) you will be addicted!

You said it all right there, MamaJ. And, what do addicts do? They lie. They will say anything to protect their addiction. They will avoid and deny the irrational parts of their beliefs.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by guitarplayer

 

Please give biblical reference to your belief in hell.

Not my beliefs. They're yours. You think I didn't see your signature?

I do not believe in a personal hell and never have espoused that ideology. The John 6:66 speak of people leaving Christ because of His hard saying nothing there about hell. So where did you get this idea of hell from?

Pretty intolerant of you. If you don't like something and makes no difference to you, why open your mouth? It's called being respectful. It was a thing before people could hide like cowards behind their monitors. You used to have to keep stuff in, ya know, so people don't think you are an absolute narcissistic tool.

reply to post by fenson76


This is my planet, too. It means that I have a right to protect my descendants from a future of insanity. I want them to not fear religious nutjobs. I want to have a little bit of hope that some day we MIGHT have peace on earth. To do this, I have a right to voice my opinion against false beliefs, as in religions and gods and demons. If I can wake up a few people before I die, then I've done my part.

Funny how YOU came here with YOUR intolerance to tell me I'm intolerant, instead of focusing on the topic at hand. But, that's what religious people do. If you don't believe as they do, shut up so they don't have to shut up themselves.

Originally posted by jeramie
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I personally choose not to get into debates and arguments because of what the Word of God says in Titus 3:9. But, I will say that God loves you, and that I am praying for you!

If there is evil in the world, then this is thee most evil one can do. You go on avoiding foolish controversies so that Mormons can spread their belief that Jesus was born in Missouri. That Joseph Smith received revelations from a hat. That it is right for Islamist extremists to behead infidels and rape women and beat their wives and fly planes into buildings.

Yes, just close your eyes, block your ears, and close your mouth to all the insanities. Good job!

Using your own 'good' book against you, how about this: Matthew 12:30: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Though I have my own ideas on what drives people to behave this way, namely my big-guy-in-the-sky theory (paternal replacement) and the basic slave-master paradigm, I've just read this text that seemed like it wanted popping in here:

" Whoever can scare people enough (produce bio-survival anxiety) can sell them quickly on any verbal map that seems to give them relief, i.e., cure the anxiety. By frightening people with Hell and then offering them Salvation, the most ignorant or crooked individuals can "sell" a whole system of thought that cannot bear two minutes of rational analysis.
- Robert Anton Wilson (Prometheus rising)

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Jesus has made numerous mention of hell and fire. Do I really need to copy and paste the relevant selections? I'd rather not, I'm sure you have a Bible. Or at the very least, you know how to use Google.

Jesus never used the word "hell". Never. Not once. The Greek word that was translated by the KJV translators as the English "hell" was "Gehenna", which is a literal pace that still exists. In the time of Jesus, it was their garbage dump, where the "fire was never quenched" because they continually burned the trash. Today, it is expensive real estate, and is actually quite beautiful. Here is an excellent article on the mistranslation:

www.tentmaker.org/ifhellisreal.htm



Please feel free to post as many verses that you think support the idea of hell from the Bible, and I will happily explain why it doesn't mean what you think it does.

Originally posted by rockoperawriter
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

okay. so a guy arrives n hell, he gets the introdution. you know getting hooks ripped out of his back forced to eat his own head biting his nose off etc. suddenly from the deep footsteps crash into the cavern floor like semi trucks, the captors in hell scurry like roaches yet the unknown guy stands still. the great devil peers into his eyes and says "you are without fear of me. why is this? i can rip your guts out and strangle you with them while evil monkeys play drumsets of iron and steel" the guy says "hey lou, it's me harvey, i was married to your sister"

Took me a while sitting with that one, mulling it over, and it's a good one, as it leaves the response, an unknown.. Very funny!!!

Maybe you're not such a bad "Satanist" after all!

If you can appreciate the humor and the irony, in the right way without a trace of malice or cynicism, then at deeper level you and I are brothers in Christ (spirit of infinite intelligence and potential power).

And selfishness only goes so far in the final analysis because it can lead to isolate consciousness, where in trtuh we all just want to love and be loved as part of one human (and divine) family, made to be in koinonia with God in spirit and in truth, as co-creators involved in a Great Work of unfathomable dimensions in space and time.

And when the devil dissolves, in us, and passes away, the true child of God that we really are is liberated in eternity wherein there is no devil and no hell and we are free to LAUGH out loud, either for some particular reason or for none at all.

Power and magic are matters of self expression, so bravo for coming up with a very funny joke and note the position that it leaves "Lou" in, but it was lou's sister, oh dear it goes round and round that's the kind of thing I'm talking about you see and what we think of as "satan" is already double-bound in the knowledge of the humor of understanding and real knowledge that is the experience God intended for us from before the very beginning of time unto the new creation at the "end of time".

It's a joke and one capable of saving the world, and by the grace of God we have to have the courage and the power to tell it to the world even if it's at our own expense and unique to each person because we were each of us f'd up or screwed up I should say (ahem) in our own unique way, relative to the truth and the life and the reality as it was meant to be lived even to the full AND to overflowing that once we get the smallest taste of it becomes both a thirst and a wellspring welling up to eternal life already now and already always, but it's not an >i< thing as Satan would have it, but a "we" thing as Jesus made it.

We're brothers.

No hell can separate us from the brotherhood of man and the family of God, no devil, no Satan no adversary, so in Christ I can walk right up to you and shake your hand. What would you try to do, put an evil curse on me in response to my offer of friendship just to be "satanic"... I didn't think so.

It's all good and there are no worries when the circle of Christ's joy, which is his love, is joined, especially in these matters and under these present circumstances that we find ourselves in.

There is no fear in Christ, that's all I want you to know, because when it comes to trust, it's a spirit that's been tested and shown to be tried and true, right down the line without wavering and while one the one hand making a sacrifice and on the other already anticipating the resurrected life in equanimity (see my avatar for clues).

Anyway, I'm sorry for being a little harsh and judgmental earlier. Funny joke! Props? ..

Originally posted by Dmvr34
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Thats only IF we go to hell.

edit on 14/08/2013 by Dmvr34 because: none

Going with the idea that this is all true, what are the odds that 99% of all the people that have ever lived have led righteous lives, or professed their sorrows before being hit by a bus or blown up in a war or suddenly dropped dead from a stroke or heart attack?

And again, if Jesus somehow made the weight of sins suddenly disappear, then why even bother to try to live a righteous life if rapists, child molesters, and serial killers get to go to heaven by saying I'm sorry a split second before they die?

This is the flaw in the biblical belief system. Either there's a hell for sinners and they go there no matter what, or everyone goes to heaven so there's no point in even trying to avoid sin on earth.

Originally posted by OptimusSubprime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Heaven isn't a place made for just "little ole me". It is there for you too. Yes, you are correct... belief in heaven is also a belief in hell, because they are both Biblical places or concepts. Your description of hell, regardless of it's accuracy, is all the more reason to believe in an all mighty and loving God, and the Heaven that he resides in.

Fine, but you have to get real about it. If god is all good and does nothing BUT good, what human mind can even hope to comprehend Him? Then on the reverse side, if Satan is all evil and does nothing BUT evil, what little human mind on earth could beat this Master Manipulator, the Great Deceiver?

P.S. I don't want pretty words here, or quotes from scripture. I want you to FEEL what you believe. I want you to FEEL the power this belief has given to Satan. Satan is all around you RIGHT NOW. If his power isn't as great as god's, then at least acknowledge that his power cannot be matched by any mere mortal. You (and I and every other human on this planet) would easily be ruined by this beast.

It all boils down to the oversimplification of the concept of the judeo christian concept of God. Many people still work off the polytheistic tendency to have a god of this and goddess of that. The King James Bible itself was translated by scholars in such a way as to make it easier to read to the unwashed masses. Martin Luther King Jr said, "It is rare to find a man willing to engage in hard solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for half baked ideas and simple answers. Nothing pains some people more than having to think". Basically that people tend to oversimplify things so they don't have to put much thought into it. Otherwise it makes for better recruitment to preach peace and love than hellfire and damnation.

Truth is, when you look at the Old Testament, you see that God has gladly burned the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, killing man woman and child. He knocks down the walls of Jericho and sends his people in to kill every living thing, man woman child and beasts. So according to the scripture, he's not some cuddly pushover that will forgive you just for saying the words out loud.

If you look further back into the book of Genesis, it says basically that Man was made in God's image. That doesn't mean God has 10 fingers 10 toes and is generally human. It means that Man was made in his psychological image. The book tells of how he walked in the Garden of Eden and talked with Adam, apparently enjoying the conversations more than with his "yes master" angels.

So, you see, God as shown in scripture is a complex being with a wide range of emotions. He gets happy. He gets sad. He gets angry. And if we look at the book of Job, we see that God will let a faithful good servant be put through hell to prove a point to someone. Kindof like a woman will put a man through hell just to prove a point.

So, overall, the logic arguements of "if God is all powerful and good..." are not only a misquotation of a logic argument used against an entirely different diety, but the available scripture shows clearly that God isn't a simplistic concept of good vs evil embodied.

As for how could someone pass in to heaven when those they may have loved are suffering in hell, there's a passage in Revelations that goes, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away . 5 And he that sat upon the throne said , Behold , I make all things new." Which remind me of the stories of the River Styx where the waters wipe away someone's memories. Think of it as God's MiB "flashy thing memory messer-upper".

Now as for why He doesn't mind killing people off, people who believe in a life after death acting like someone dying is a horrible tragedy and they'll never be seen again is borderline hypocrisy to me. There's a quote that goes, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." God doesn't have a problem with that concept.

So it's not a matter of any logical conflicts or extreme moral views. It's a matter of people trying to oversimplify things into basic concepts instead of retaining a very human-like complexity.

reply to post by jiggerj


You make it seem like sin is everyone's preference and that we all gravitate to those kinds of ..endeavors.

The "problem" i guess that's presented at the heart of the belief system, is that we're all one and possess an eternal soul.

A karmic wheel with a school of hard knocks, of Justice AND Mercy (which for some would be a type of hell in and of itself, of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth) capable of preventing a cataclysm of sin and evil coming back into the world, capable of making the world new and whole, eventually, that would work without having the send the sheep this way and the goats, that way.

God's desire is that none are lost in the fullness of time and history, and he's quite obviously prepared to go rather far afield to retrieve us whether we knew it or not, or even believed in it or not.

Jigger do you think you're smarter than God and that you can nullify him and his mysteries with this lame-ass paradox?

What you are pointing to however IS a flaw in traditional "Christian" theology, and for that I applaud you, for asking us to think this through, as if in search of Christ all over again, because the smart ones among us realize full well that the standard Christian doctrinal interpretations surrounding salvation and condemnation cannot be true in light of the truth at the heart of the cross.

So thank you for bringing us closer to Jesus, as the all-inclusive tree of life, and not the tree of the duality of the so-called "knowledge" of good and evil.

It's a good debate and one that cuts to the truth at the heart of the Christian faith, that of the all-inclusive Christ who's standard doesn't bring hell, but reconciliation and understanding and whereever possible in forgiveness, but not without accountability to the truth and while making no compromise.

Everyone will face the truth, but we all failed, and this is precisely the who what why when when and how, of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ (annointed in spirit).

But it's not a conditional love, and there's the rub with 99% of modern Christendom or what I like to call "Churchianity".

reply to post by jiggerj

This sounds very much like YOU believe in hell and evil and demons and Satan.

I didn't say anything about Satan. Like I said in an earlier post to New Age, I think the universe itself is the Beast.

And yet, here you are, unafraid of him.

Satan? I don't believe in a single person, Satan, and see it as representing a certain type of evil.

If you gave this biblical beast the fearful respect he deserves then you would be too frightened to even talk about him and his legion.

I don't think that "the legion" follow a person, Satan. I obviously believe in these demonic entities who can take you to Hell since I saw them and heard them, and felt their claws dig into me as they drug me from the earth's surface and pulled me down into the earth. But I think of them now, thirty years later, as something natural that is part of the great universal beast system. Now that does not mean that I was not afraid then, or that I am not afraid now, I just don't see them as having absolute power, or that they necessarily have evil intentions, but that they represent something that you can't just hide from and they will go away.

For people like you, every step you take in life (every second of every day) should be fraught with mind numbing fear of sinning.

I've never thought of it like that. Before these experiences with death, I was pretty much into the Free Grace theology, where if you really believed that you were saved, then you were. I have changed my theology since then and realize that you have a responsibility to do what is right, that you will be examined and judged by what you did in your life. Rather than praying to God that thankfully I never have to worry about sinning, now I pray to God thankful that He sends us His spirit through Christ in order so we do not have to sin. That may seem like a trivial distinction to some people but it is very significant.

And, for people like you, if you believe in the Great Deceiver, then you have to accept that no simple human would be able to withstand the temptations wrought by this Master Manipulator.

Like I said, I don't believe in this great bugaboo. I believe that our very existence is deceptive as we are surrounded by traps that we can fall into and miss the big picture of what the meaning of life is.

So, either believe in the god story, and all of the dark side that goes with it, or stop making religion a part time hobby. Either you fear the Devil with every fiber of your being, or you don't believe in any of it. No god, no devil, no Jesus, no Mohammed, nothing. Believe or don't believe, but don't sit on the fence.

I think that darkness is inherent to the universe and living in it, but that there is someone in it who cares about us and will care for us if we are willing to have a relationship with Him.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Good Lord, do christians and jews bother you that bad that you cannot shut up about them?

I'll tell you what. I will personally go and buy you a tube of Preparation H cooling gel, that you can rub on whatever butt hurt orifice it will soothe the most and then mail it to you. Send me a PM with your name and mailing address. I will even pay to mail it first class USPS.

Ahhh, I see that I (a mere mortal) has gotten under your skin. So, if you believe that Satan exists, what possible chance would you have of avoiding falling for the temptations of this powerful deceiver? NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER!

I don't want you to stop believing, LW. No. I want you to BELIEVE in ALL OF IT! Supposedly, your very soul depends upon it. So, once you acknowledge (once you feel and fear) the full power of Satan, you will be so paralyzed with fear that you will finally see that it's all BS! The only way to break religion is to force people like you to experience the full force of your false beliefs. You have to make it through to the other side.

There is NO defense against a beast that your god allows to roam free amongst us. So, either he doesn't exist, or we are ALL doomed.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Good Lord, do christians and jews bother you that bad that you cannot shut up about them?

I'll tell you what. I will personally go and buy you a tube of Preparation H cooling gel, that you can rub on whatever butt hurt orifice it will soothe the most and then mail it to you. Send me a PM with your name and mailing address. I will even pay to mail it first class USPS.

Ahhh, I see that I (a mere mortal) has gotten under your skin. So, if you believe that Satan exists, what possible chance would you have of avoiding falling for the temptations of this powerful deceiver? NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER!

I don't want you to stop believing, LW. No. I want you to BELIEVE in ALL OF IT! Supposedly, your very soul depends upon it. So, once you acknowledge (once you feel and fear) the full power of Satan, you will be so paralyzed with fear that you will finally see that it's all BS! The only way to break religion is to force people like you to experience the full force of your false beliefs. You have to make it through to the other side.

There is NO defense against a beast that your god allows to roam free amongst us. So, either he doesn't exist, or we are ALL doomed.

You have no idea of what "satan" is according to the Bible. Satan isn't some being that has pointy horns and pokes you with a pitchfork. It's our "flesh". The idea that satan is a specific, singular entity is supported nowhere in the Bible.

Please stop posting your assumptions as fact, and please come to a better understanding of the Bible that isn't based upon what you have heard televangelists preach, because they are, more often than not, incorrect.

reply to post by OneManArmy

People have a right to believe what they will, people also have a right to voice their opinions on the beliefs of others.

I gave your reply a star for this line alone. You are correct. People do have a right to their beliefs, but they have to actually BELIEVE it and stop playing at it like it's a hobby. For some reason the religious think on god as ALL-powerful while imagining that the devil is this little mischievous boy that tries to get people to steal bubble gum from a candy store.

Either Satan is a real threat, a powerhouse of evil, or the whole biblical story falls apart.

If people want to believe that god is this:



then they have to acknowledge that Satan is this:


Either the believers fear Satan with every fiber of their being, or they don't really believe in any of it.