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Originally posted by AlphaHawk
A popular theory here on ATS is that GMO crops are killing bees all over the world, whilst there is no firm evidence of this being the case,
Originally posted by VoidHawk
PESTICIDE: A product to kill pests.
GMO's: Contain high amounts of pesticide and can tolerate high strength products.
Does the Bee know its not a pest?
In our study and those listed above, pesticides applied by beekeepers to control hive pests were present in a large proportion of the samples, often in quantities higher than most of the pesticides that are applied to crops.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by AlphaHawk
If anything, rather than an argument against GMOs, this would be one in favor of insect resistant GMOs since the use of such greatly reduces the amount of insecticide used.edit on 8/9/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)
Biotech giant Monsanto has been awarded yet another victory by the federal government thanks to a recent Environmental Protection Agency decision to allow larger traces of the herbicide glyphosate in farm-grown foods.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by AlphaHawk
It should also be noted that the study found that agricultural spraying is not only, nor the greatest source of pesticides found in the study.
In our study and those listed above, pesticides applied by beekeepers to control hive pests were present in a large proportion of the samples, often in quantities higher than most of the pesticides that are applied to crops.
www.plosone.org...
This study, and others, show that when exposed to a combination of pesticides, bees become more susceptible to Nosema infestation. If anything, rather than an argument against GMOs, this would be one in favor of insect resistant GMOs since the use of such greatly reduces the amount of insecticide used.edit on 8/9/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)
Green Revolution refers to a series of research, development, and technology transfer initiatives, occurring between the 1940s and the late 1970s, that increased agriculture production worldwide, particularly in the developing world, beginning most markedly in the late 1960s.[1] The initiatives, led by Norman Borlaug, the "Father of the Green Revolution" credited with saving over a billion people from starvation, involved the development of high-yielding varieties of cereal grains, expansion of irrigation infrastructure, modernization of management techniques, distribution of hybridized seeds, synthetic fertilizers, and pesticides to farmers.
Nice number. The trouble that number is not supported by the facts. The fact is, with insecticides, less is applied when insect resistant crops are planted.
Often, it is not the amount used, but the concentration of the substance. As an illustration, let's say if you reduce the amount by half, but use herbicides that is 10 times more lethal. You would inevitably end up with higher counts of toxins you spread in the environment.
Nor can it be assumed to exist. For example, in this study (in the OP) two herbicides were detected in pollen. Neither one was glyphosate.
The link to bee decline thus cannot be so simply dismissed.
I'm not "protecting" anyone. Don't you think that farmers (including beekeepers) should be more responsible about how they apply pesticides? Are you protecting them?
I don't know why you are so much adamant in protecting corporations with shoddy practices, Phage.
No. I have never tried to "depict them as absolute truth". But what I have tried to do is get people to not just take everything that the anti-GMO crowd says as being truthful. Because it often isn't.
Do you think you are helping humanity in this existence by spreading/twisting [mis]information and trying to depict them as absolute truth?
An ironic statement. Very few here seem to make any attempt and being "impartial and questioning". The mantra seems to be "Monsanto is evil and I don't care what anyone says."
If you can not, try be more impartial and questioning.
False. Plants were patented long before there were GMOs. Including those used in organic farming.
Why won't they promote or provide assistance to better [traditional or organic] farming practices instead without the involvement of GM crops? There is no seed patent involved to begin with in traditional/organic crops.
Correct. Nor can one single entity be given the blame for the ills of a system of agriculture which has evolved over more than a century.
No one single entity will monopolize our food production.
Nice number. The trouble that number is not supported by the facts. The fact is, with insecticides, less is applied when insect resistant crops are planted.
The trouble is that number is not supported by the facts.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Kurius
Nice number. The trouble that number is not supported by the facts. The fact is, with insecticides, less is applied when insect resistant crops are planted.
Often, it is not the amount used, but the concentration of the substance. As an illustration, let's say if you reduce the amount by half, but use herbicides that is 10 times more lethal. You would inevitably end up with higher counts of toxins you spread in the environment.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Kurius
Nor can it be assumed to exist. For example, in this study (in the OP) two herbicides were detected in pollen. Neither one was glyphosate.
The link to bee decline thus cannot be so simply dismissed.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Kurius
I'm not "protecting" anyone. Don't you think that farmers (including beekeepers) should be more responsible about how they apply pesticides? Are you protecting them?
I don't know why you are so much adamant in protecting corporations with shoddy practices, Phage.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Kurius
No. I have never tried to "depict them as absolute truth". But what I have tried to do is get people to not just take everything that the anti-GMO crowd says as being truthful. Because it often isn't.
Do you think you are helping humanity in this existence by spreading/twisting [mis]information and trying to depict them as absolute truth?
Originally posted by Phage
False. Plants were patented long before there were GMOs. Including those used in organic farming.
Why won't they promote or provide assistance to better [traditional or organic] farming practices instead without the involvement of GM crops? There is no seed patent involved to begin with in traditional/organic crops.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Kurius
Correct. Nor can one single entity be given the blame for the ills of a system of agriculture which has evolved over more than a century.
No one single entity will monopolize our food production.
edit on 8/10/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by talklikeapirat
You're right. Sorry about that. I've posted them before but of course, not everyone looks at every thing.
There are a few different factors to be considered by just for the heck of it, let's look at some raw statistics.
In 1999 the USDA survey showed the application of 10,115,000 pounds of insecticides on corn.
In 2005 the survey showed the application of 4,849,000 pounds
In 2010 the survey showed the application of 1,631,000 pounds.
In that period of time the acerage increased from 77,386,000 to 88,192,000 while the application of insecticides dropped by 8.48 million pounds.
Cotton:
1999: 39,331,000 pounds
2005: 14,651,000 pounds
2010: 6,041,000 pounds.
A decrease of 33.29 million pounds of insecticides
That translates to a decrease of 81% in pounds applied per acre.
Soybeans:
1999: 400,000 pounds
2012: 4,060,000 pounds
An increase of 3.6 million pounds of insecticides.
That translates to an increase of 9% in pounds applied per acre.
www.nass.usda.gov...
See the statistics above. They are based on the amount of active ingredient applied.
Nice description. "Less" doesn't mean anything. Try finding out the ingredients and the concentration of each. Make comparison that way.
Did I say that?
Just because it was not in the report, it does not mean that can be dismissed. Can you be absolutely certain that there is no correlation to bee declining? Can you rely only on this one report to make your conclusions? THat's too narrow, don't you think?
Who do you think is applying the insecticides and fungicides found in the study?
Traditional farmers and beekepers have been around longer than Monsanto and GMO farmers. Though I can't be certain if the traditional farmers and beekeepers are to blame, such an argument just doesn't add up, Personally, I can't help thinking why on earth they would suddenly wake up one day, change their running, proven practices and overdose their farms on pesticides/fungicides?
Did I say that?
But you seems so certain that they do just that and GMO isn't to blame??
Have you actually looked? How much do you actually know about seed sales? If you looked you might find that every patented plant prohibits replanting for sale. What would be the point of the patent otherwise? Here is a case. Non-GMO lawsuits
Most do not require you to buy seeds from a designated supplier, and I don't know of any that would force you not to keep seeds for your next replanting, as Monsanto does.
ia600504.us.archive.org...
WHEREAS, Pioneer filed the instant lawsuit asserting that CPSC has violated Pioneer’s rights under the 93B82 PVP Certificate, in violation of the Plant Variety Protection Act, 7 U.S.C. §§ 2321 et seq ., by conditioning, stocking, offering for sale, exposing fo r sale, marketing, selling, dispensing, delivering, and transferring Soybean Variety 93B82 as described herein, and/or by instigating or actively inducing such conduct.
15.
Ivan L. Nelson and Thomas M. Nelson have infringed the 93M61 Patent, the
93M42 Patent, and possibly other Pioneer patents in violation of 35 U.S.C. § 271 by making,
using, selling and/or offering for sale in the United States, without authority, seed that falls
within the scope of the claims of the 93M61 Patent, the 93M42 Patent, and possibly other
Pioneer patents. Ivan L. Nelson and Thomas M. Nelson were not authorized to and did not have
a license allowing them to engage in the infringing conduct.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Kurius
See the statistics above. They are based on the amount of active ingredient applied.
Nice description. "Less" doesn't mean anything. Try finding out the ingredients and the concentration of each. Make comparison that way.
www.ers.usda.gov...
"Did I say that?"
Just because it was not in the report, it does not mean that can be dismissed. Can you be absolutely certain that there is no correlation to bee declining? Can you rely only on this one report to make your conclusions? THat's too narrow, don't you think?
" Who do you think is applying the insecticides and fungicides found in the study?"
Traditional farmers and beekepers have been around longer than Monsanto and GMO farmers. Though I can't be certain if the traditional farmers and beekeepers are to blame, such an argument just doesn't add up, Personally, I can't help thinking why on earth they would suddenly wake up one day, change their running, proven practices and overdose their farms on pesticides/fungicides?
"Did I say that?"
But you seems so certain that they do just that and GMO isn't to blame??
15.
Ivan L. Nelson and Thomas M. Nelson have infringed the 93M61 Patent, the
93M42 Patent, and possibly other Pioneer patents in violation of 35 U.S.C. § 271 by making,
using, selling and/or offering for sale in the United States, without authority, seed that falls
within the scope of the claims of the 93M61 Patent, the 93M42 Patent, and possibly other
Pioneer patents. Ivan L. Nelson and Thomas M. Nelson were not authorized to and did not have
a license allowing them to engage in the infringing conduct.
Right. It's not a study at all. It is actual statistics on pesticide usage. What sort of "comparison" are you looking for?
Sorry....That's not a comparative study.
Ok, honey. Let's see what I said:
You did falsely imply. Read your text again, dear.
The link to bee decline thus cannot be so simply dismissed.
Nor can it be assumed to exist. For example, in this study (in the OP) two herbicides were detected in pollen. Neither one was glyphosate.
" Who do you think is applying the insecticides and fungicides found in the study?"
Yes, they could have. Except that statistics don't indicate that.
That's where your argument falters. So farmers may have been applying the same amount of insectisides and fungisides all the time.
I didn't say that insecticides and fungicides are the cause of bee deaths. And the study doesn't say that either. It has nothing to do with anything found on dead bees.
Although you can find traces of the chemicals on dead bees doesn't mean they are killed by those. Let's say you are found dead. The coroner have found some traces alcohol in your blood. Can he conclude that you died because of alcohol consumption? No!
Perhaps in you mind. Honey.
"Did I say that?"
It seems clear, dear.
Do I condone a business suing those who violate their intellectual property rights? Yes, I do.
Good that you found these cases. Now, do you condone these? What if one day there is no longer a choice of traditional seeds due to contamination?
“Very simply, I choose my seed based upon the best variety for my conditions that we farm. I choose to use GM seed because it works for me, not because I don’t have other choices”
What would my incentive be?
Please answer me this, Phage (don't try to avoid it as you had with my other questions): if there was a five-year GMO-only-diet study, would you enroll your family in it?
Ah, there it is. The shill accusation. Never fails.
Again, perhaps you and your loved ones are now depending on these companies survival for your immediate gratifications?
Which means they can't see what's in front of their face? Why do they have to lie so much?
You can't argue the anti-GMO groups are much more far-sighted.
Originally posted by Kurius
Please answer me this, Phage (don't try to avoid it as you had with my other questions): if there was a five-year GMO-only-diet study, would you enroll your family in it? Free GMO-food for five years to test its safety. If you would, please form a group. I am sure someone out there would be pleased to contact you.
Again, perhaps you and your loved ones are now depending on these companies survival for your immediate gratifications? You can't argue the anti-GMO groups are much more far-sighted. Please remember...whatever you are trying to do/protect will one way or another definitely come to haunt you one day. I hope you will not have to live/die with that regret.
edit on 10-8-2013 by Kurius because: (no reason given)