Science does it again: Big Bang going out the window?

reply to post by filledcup


What does any of this have to do with religion? This is some pretty cool new information that we didn't know before. This information will be double and triple checked by others and if consistent it will be incorporated into our current understanding of the universe.

There is nothing in this that mentions or implies religion, so i fail to see where you are finding a connection unless you are just waiting for a moment you can kick science while its down. Keep on waiting, but its never going to happen. Unlike religion, science is not a belief system. If some scientific principle is proven wrong by new information, that principle will be updated to account for the new information.

The closest science will ever get to religion is when our knowledge finally covers all the gaps your god lives in. They will never co-exist because they are fully incompatible.

DC

Originally posted by xDeadcowx
reply to post by filledcup

 

What does any of this have to do with religion? This is some pretty cool new information that we didn't know before. This information will be double and triple checked by others and if consistent it will be incorporated into our current understanding of the universe.

There is nothing in this that mentions or implies religion, so i fail to see where you are finding a connection unless you are just waiting for a moment you can kick science while its down. Keep on waiting, but its never going to happen. Unlike religion, science is not a belief system. If some scientific principle is proven wrong by new information, that principle will be updated to account for the new information.

The closest science will ever get to religion is when our knowledge finally covers all the gaps your god lives in. They will never co-exist because they are fully incompatible.

DC

DC....it seems that its a very black and white issue with you....but saying science and religion cannot co-exist flies in the face of most of history.....since almost every person of science at the very least pretended to believe in the prevailing religion of the time and place they were in....and...likely MOST of them actually DID believe and were even strongly motivated in their scientific discoveries by their spiritual belief system, not to mention funded by rich people or institutions that were also religious or spiritually inclined.

and perhaps on that point we should clarify there is a huge difference between religion and spirituality.....something to think about.

I happen to believe in a creator...an intelligent being who is responsible for pretty much everything. Does that mean i detest science? want to see every theory i dont agree with immediately squashed and its proponents hanged or publicly flogged? Hell no. No self respecting spiritual person shrinks from a conflict and meeting of various and even opposing ideas.

Anyway, no reason in my opinion to ever be opposed to the idea of a creator entering the discussion when the issue has to do with the 'creation' of everything that exists today...and that very theme invites input regarding the permutations of that issue.

Originally posted by -PLB-

Originally posted by filledcup
there is alot that science is currently unable to observe. more reason why we should not put our faith of existence in the hands of science.

When we apply your same logic to any other concept, we come to the same conclusions. for instance:

there is a lot that religion is currently unable to observe. more reason why we should not put our faith of existence in the hands of religion.

When we use your logic, you are basically saying that we should not put our faith in anything. I propose that we put our faith in the things that work best. Praying that a disease is cured has a lot worse track record of success than modern science based medicine. So for my personal health I would put my faith in science.

If for you personally religion (or other world view) works better than science, then that is fine by me. As long as nobody it forcing his religion upon others, I am ok with it. I do despise religious parents who deny their kids vaccination because they believe its them getting mortally ill is gods will.

Since you have not observed extreme synchronicity then I can understand your viewpoint. But praying or meditation, extreme happiness can give a placebo effect that will make the body self repair. The problem from my point of view is that we have the dogma of religion when we could have spirituality without the small mindedness that can follow in some religions.

I am not saying we should not have science and use medicine. I say we should figure out the best of all knowledge to give the person multiple treatment that complement each other for highest effect and well being.

reply to post by filledcup

science will approach a dead-end in every field and in every direction, as it learns more, it will learn more of the higher intelligence which holds us.

when we come to understand the mystic forces which work together with the logical apparitions of physical reality, man will become accelerated in technological development.

science must come to realize that just as there MUST BE a Science to spirituality.. that there is also a spirituality.. to science.

Just because you think there MUST BE a science to spirituality, doesn't make it so. I'm not sure how you arrived at your implications, but it seems you've leaped over and sidestepped an unfathomable amount of data to reach your desired conclusion.

Originally posted by filledcup

maybe if we had faith in what is taught in our religions we would not need to go testing through science, and will instead test through our spiritual path of life. but understandable.. religious teachings have been corrupted by greed and power. very few are able to sift through it all and find the truth. to discover and experience it for themselves.

edit on 4-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

The problem with being outside Platos cave is that sometimes you do not have as much senses to perceive what you can feel but not see. It might be that you are less visual than others and are a bit blind but it can be very annoying when you experience what science call paranormal.

What this specie needs is better sensors to perceive what is around them and most people are putting up walls and disconnect the information that is coming thru in the unconscious since they have been told it does not exists. I myself have very heavy defenses and that is probably a good thing.

Originally posted by EasyPleaseMe

Originally posted by filledcup

God exists outside the laws of physics!
God Created light from Darkness (big bang)
The world consists of both seen and unseen worlds
Both seen and unseen intelligent conscious ENTITIES

Mystics have beaten us to the finish line!

maybe if we had faith in what is taught in our religions we would not need to go testing through science, and will instead test through our spiritual path of life. but understandable.. religious teachings have been corrupted by greed and power. very few are able to sift through it all and find the truth. to discover and experience it for themselves.

I don't know anything about any religion to be honest but I have always wondered where the writers of these texts got their information from.

Third Eye?

reply to post by filledcup


Well you might laugh at it now but seriously all this new science findings can be found in the eastern philosophy. If our western science would just open their mind a bit more to other cultures. It would save them to invent the wheel over and over again.

There is a 5th and 6th fundamental interaction. There is no dark energy and dark matter. It's all driven by this force. You will remember when time brings this up.

Originally posted by instigatah

this answer will go for both you and Easypleaseme

perform ur own critical thinking analysis.

let's start from the top. and top in this sense means the plane we are on and perceive to be the top. reality!

now here in external reality, we see objects.. 'objects'.. take note of this word. we see objects as they interact with eachother. and understand that some objects react with others, some merge with others to form new constructs, action an reaction, 1+1=2 etc. things are simple and straight forward.

but as we look either deeper into things through scientific inspection of the objects on earth in this reality that we interface with, or further and out into space past our middle point.. things start to become illogical. we have peered into the quantum realm and realized, that things dont work quite the way the work in our logical realm. in the quantum realm, it seems to scientists, that if they hit a pool ball on a pool-table in a certain direction and with a certain force, sometimes it may go straight, but sometimes it may curve, sometimes it will multiply itself into 9 clones and travel in 9 directions simultaneously. in effect.. 1+1 does not equal 2 in the quantum realm.

we also recognize that it seems that reality is manifest from some element or transformation from the quantum into the physical. the bible has already said this. the invisible forms the visible.

now to answer something from nothing.

understand now, that the spiritual is the realm of quantum consciousness. essentially we acknowledge as is stated in the bible. the rules of time and space do not apply as they do on this plane of existence. things become illogical. and through the analysis of machines it would APPEAR TO BE 'Random'. however, where we will agree, is that there is a link between physical reality, and invisible or what i call 'Spiritual Reality'.

what is claimed by mystics, and i fully agree, is that God was not forged out of the LOGICAL process of creation as we would hope to analyse and summarize it. via logic, we require 1+1 to equal 2. but for the spirit.. the laws of exchange do not apply. the philosopher's stone my boy. the spirit of God does not require anything to materialize something. and in that same way God can materialize multiple somethings out of nothing. and set rules to them and how they interact for the design of a grand computer system as you would have it. Math is totally blown out of the water.. it is only a small manifestation of the entirety of existence. there are simply places where the numbers will not take you without your own direct and conscious involvement.

in this same way that the rules of logic as it pertains to creation do not apply for manifestations from God. they are probably even further 'deluded' for how he himself was forged. but ill tell u what. i dont need to know that. what i need to know is how to get to his level and the bible tells us all these things. as well as all other religions, encoded in different ways to pass on the message.

NOTE AGAIN: i am NOT saying that we should reject science. not at all. i am saying that we should not forget that God is the designer and live accordingly while we develop our science. but science will be led back to an intelligent creator eventually. and it will lead to an explosion in the understanding of the makeup of existence and of technological advancement. Religion will become down to a science, and science will respect and work in conjunction with the Science of Religion. all roads lead to rome.

we can crack the codes and in my case translate the mystical concepts into real world applications. but we are limited in what is available in tools to work with. if our tools are limited, we can only produce limited scientific product. thus scientific advancement based on contributions from mystical adepts is hampered based on the level of technology available to them.

what id say is, those guys were good! damn good! the stuff that has been passed down to us is really solid and full of wisdom. i see fully how many fantastic scientific claims coincide with the claims of mystic adepts. not the frauds.. the true adepts of spiritual understanding.

Originally posted by LittleByLittle
[
Third Eye?

Can't be, there's no eye in the colon or rectum.

Originally posted by Brucee
reply to post by filledcup

 

Well you might laugh at it now but seriously all this new science findings can be found in the eastern philosophy. If our western science would just open their mind a bit more to other cultures. It would save them to invent the wheel over and over again.

There is a 5th and 6th fundamental interaction. There is no dark energy and dark matter. It's all driven by this force. You will remember when time brings this up.

why ever would i laugh at that statement? perhaps your comment was meant in response to someone else. lol

Originally posted by liejunkie01
I knew it.

As soon as I read the title, I knew that religion would be in there somewhere.

Keep trying ole faithful one

I didn't but I should have.

It's like someone staring at a fire and pondering how it works. They grab a stick and thrust it into the fire and the stick burns. They think "Ahha, I understand fire!"

Then they grab a steel rod and thrust it into the fire. Nothing obvious happens. They think "Ahh well, God it is then."

Originally posted by TheOd

Originally posted by LittleByLittle
[
Third Eye?

Can't be, there's no eye in the colon or rectum.

and that is precisely why science should stop looking for it there.

en.wikipedia.org...

The structures of the third eye in the tuatara are analogous to the cornea, lens and retina, though the latter resembles that of an octopus rather than a vertebrate retina.

like i said, those guys were good!

reply to post by instigatah

likely MOST of them actually DID believe and were even strongly motivated in their scientific discoveries by their spiritual belief system, not to mention funded by rich people or institutions that were also religious or spiritually inclined.

How does what they may have believed in without evidence (faith) have anything at all to do with what they found evidence for? Scientific discovery is about finding evidence, not believing in something just because it feels good. Regardless of who it was funded by, evidence is evidence.

and perhaps on that point we should clarify there is a huge difference between religion and spirituality.....something to think about.

In the context of this conversation, they are pretty much the same. Scientific discoveries deal with facts, data, and evidence. Religion and spirituality deal with feelings and claimed knowledge with zero evidence.

I happen to believe in a creator...an intelligent being who is responsible for pretty much everything. Does that mean i detest science? want to see every theory i dont agree with immediately squashed and its proponents hanged or publicly flogged? Hell no. No self respecting spiritual person shrinks from a conflict and meeting of various and even opposing ideas.

Anyway, no reason in my opinion to ever be opposed to the idea of a creator entering the discussion when the issue has to do with the 'creation' of everything that exists today...and that very theme invites input regarding the permutations of that issue.

That's all fine an dandy, you can believe in whatever creator you want. Just don't try and incorporate your faith based belief system in to a place it doesn't belong. Acting like a vulture waiting for any perceived sign of weakness in scientific theories then swooping in and rubbing God all over doesn't do anybody any good.

If religion can come forward with some sort of evidence of a creator, God, or spirituality, then it can join the world of evidence based science, but until that day they should be, and will be separate.

DC

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by filledcup

 

science will approach a dead-end in every field and in every direction, as it learns more, it will learn more of the higher intelligence which holds us.

when we come to understand the mystic forces which work together with the logical apparitions of physical reality, man will become accelerated in technological development.

science must come to realize that just as there MUST BE a Science to spirituality.. that there is also a spirituality.. to science.

Just because you think there MUST BE a science to spirituality, doesn't make it so. I'm not sure how you arrived at your implications, but it seems you've leaped over and sidestepped an unfathomable amount of data to reach your desired conclusion.

oh my aim is not to prove it with my posts. but for it to be on record! all the things i say will come to pass. Im a 21st Century Shaman in the City who has approached this from beginning from as much a skeptical and scientific viewpoint as any of you here. I found my personal proof through attaining samadhi.

i know you will not understand alot of how ive arrived at where i am with my understanding. how could you, ur just interfacing with me thru a forum and dont know very much about my person. but these things and the posts in my profile and all of my comments are one! there will be found no contradiction with anything i have ever said, anywhere on this forum. and time and time again i see things come to pass. so it is about time i start testing it in the public arena. if i am true, then the things i say will be upheld and come to pass! if i am false then i will be broken down and dismayed. that is how truth works. and that is based on not just my belief but my understanding of how entanglement really works.. lol

Here is how religion provides hard (i.e., rationally irrefutable) evidence of transcendental design and therefore of a Divine Designer:
smphillips.8m.com...
But you will need to spend at least a month studying and mastering this mathematical evidence, which truly represents the finally discovered interface of religion and science.

It's cool that they spent all the money and time to build a giant 'atom' smashing machine. But still I don't get it after all this time.....how do you even know what your trying to see, if you don't even know what your shooting with?

Kinda sounds like circular logic to me.

Scientist 1: Lets fire light or particles that we don't know exactly what they are to figure out what they are!

Scientist 2:That's a brilliant idea, lets build a giant collider to test this on the big scale!

Maybe there is something wrong with the idea of red shift/blue shift as a sort of fixed rationale determining anything beyond whatever you think is beyond.

Wow! Where to start?

First of all, I think that before we go rushing to judgement and blindly condemning that which many of us here have little understanding of (Science), it might be a good idea to first take a step back and give some thought to exactly what it is we’re taking issue with, and for what reasons. To my way of thinking, before throwing all of our established knowledgebase overboard, it’s probably a good idea to first come up with a logical alternative. Otherwise, this thread belongs in the Politics section...

I think my point is, there’s no reason to beat ourselves up over our inherent human flaws and the fact that we are little more advanced than the livestock we breed and eat for dinner every night.

Our pusuit of science, like all other human endeavors, is somewhat primitive, incomplete and subject to change at any given moment. Hopefully, and quite likely, that will not change at anytime before we become extinct. The fact of the matter is, science is an imperfect tool, invented by imperfect toolmakers. It’s just our best shot at trying to understand the madness all around us. Not only can you expect there to be endless tweaks and modifications to the “Laws” of Nature along the way, but you can also count on there being total paradigm shifts periodically and complete overhauls in our “understanding”, or perception, of reality. It happens every couple hundred years or so. And as our knowledge/technology evolves, the time interval between these shifts will likely become shorter and shorter. So, if you ever get the feeling that “this just can’t be real”, then chances are you’re onto something. Frankly, I doubt we’ll ever be in a position to truly understand reality; it’s much too deep for our li’l ol’ heads to get a handle on. For cryin’ out loud, I’m just now coming to grips with the fact that Mr. Ed didn’t really talk. And Christ, I thought Green Acres was a reality show...

In light of the above, as for any lofty ideas regarding a “Theory of Everything” (GOD, I hate that name!! Who was the arrogant, clueless idiot who came up with that one? Whew!) or misguided notions about Mankind one day actually understanding the true nature of reality (or anything remotely close to it), I tossed those notions in the can long ago. Our (we humans’) lack of objectivity may forever flaw our thinking and prevent us from nearing the top of the class (Galactically speaking). We can only hope our machine offspring will one day pick up the slack.

That’s not to say that I think we should throw in the towel and submit to the futility of it all, either. IMO, there’s something noble in the pursuit of knowledge and exploring new frontiers. I simply believe we’re intellectual toddlers, and have a long, long way to go. After all, we’ve only been around for a cosmic blink of an eye. At this stage our knowledge, and the structure of our logic, is mostly based upon our observations of local events on the macroscopic level of our existence. Our everyday experience doesn’t involve navigating the depths of supermassive blackholes or hitching a ride on the backs of neutrinos. And so, we’re quite limited in our ability to truly understand these things. But, with a few creative minds along the way (that .0001% of our species who actually contributes to our evolution) just maybe one day we will at least learn how to get along with our own kind and not destroy our planet out of greed, self-gratification and an insatiable obssession with power.

It’s kind of ironic, but for as little as we understand about our universe, we’ve still managed to develop a technology powerful enough to destroy every living thing on this planet. Now, if only this God you speak of would give us the wisdom to control it. In our ignorance we’ve reached a critical crossroads, and danger lies ahead. If we just make the right choices, however, I have a feeling there’s a whole world of magic awaiting us right around the corner...

PS: Have you ever considered that perhaps our “Maker” may have passed away aeons ago, leaving us here floundering at the whim of an unimaginably cruel and merciless Universe? Hmmm... Me either...

Originally posted by Americanist
I've attempted to use Newton's Cradle as an example in the past. A choke ring as the plate-shaped barrier between spheres - that being our visible light. The following video gets the point across:

And a few posts down - the drive: System of Truth

edit on 4-8-2013 by Americanist because: (no reason given)

thanks for this. it has been very insightful for me to see such scientific experiments.

is this by chance your presentation? or do you work in this field?

Originally posted by TheOd

Originally posted by ShaeTheShaman
it must suck being a scientist sometimes. knowing you'll never get answers to the universe. studying your whole life on something to find out in the end you were wrong . smh , this will happen many life times.

Here's what's worse. You physically die return to the ethereal and find out the Big Bang or Bang Bing or Boom Bong Bung doesn't mean a hill of beans in a world which has no time or distance.

It's a bunch of silly humans wasting their temporal slots in a material world masturbating over astral physics they will never understand whilst on Earth.

In agreement. The other side is not goverened by any physics, yet even if you've seen and experienced it for yourself, it's still quite fun to run around in circles chasing one's tale. The realities can not be combined so here in this physical reality, the physical side will search for physical solutions. That is only natural.