Pope urges 'mutual respect' with Islam; While Iran Presidents threaten Israel

reply to post by wildtimes


P.S. Please don't cut off the heads of people just for being Christian (while shouting "God is great"), any more. Thank you.

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

I'm really glad to see your OP, it's certainly not bad news, and we should appreciate anything that is at least not making the situation worse.

Unfortunately, I'm sorry to see the idea that Islamic countries think there is a difference between a Jewish state and a Zionist state. It's a very old idea on ATS and has never been very convincing, but it's getting more and more unbelievable with every speech delivered. And now, it's become silly. Wait, I take that back. It's become self-contradictory and illogical.

Consider this:

They always leave out how he was talking about the Zionist that are running Israel. Israel is supposed to be a Jewish state not a Zionist state.

"Israel is supposed to be a Jewish state," is the fundamental definition of Zionism. The author of those words is claiming "Israel is supposed to be a Zionist state, not a Zionist state." Someone who can intentionally write that should have no attention paid to his words on any subject touching on the Middle-East.

Definition of ZIONISM

: an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

www.merriam-webster.com...

Zi·on·ism

a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel.

dictionary.reference.com...

Another poster claimed there were 30,000 Jews living peacefully in Iran. Unfortunately for that belief, the official Iranian census of 2011, shows the number to be less than 10,000, less than half that at the beginning of the century. Their families have lived there since before the beginnings of Islam, refusing, in some cases, to give up their land regardless of the pressure put on them by Iran or Israel.

But to the comments of Pope Francis. May I suggest an alternate theory? He has gone a long way to becoming known as another "The People's Pope." I believe that he is directing his message at governments, but more importantly, to the people of the Muslim faith. "We don't hate you, we respect you and your faith. Let's put down the anger and talk with each other. If we can't, because of government prohibitions, look in your hearts and your holy book to find an example of peace, love, and respect. Let's at least reach that point in the hearts of every person. Not just for peace in this world but for the benefit of our immortal souls."

But you're right, there is the practical side being addressed to governments as well. "We're being kind and reasonable, and loving. You can act like %^$# if you want, but is that really in your long term interests?"

Thanks again, great news in the OP. (Internet hug.)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes


I have the same objection to the title of this thread as Sk0rpie.
You deliberately linked the two to make it sensational and showing a contrast.
Does respecting all religions also include not raising voice against injustice done to any people or to accept an apartheid?
Why do you see the muslim identity of Iran as relavent her when you yourself are not a fan of Israel and know that they have broken countless UN resolutions and committed horrible attrocities?

When a muslim speaks against israel does he automatically get labelled a jew hater? It appears so by your title.

reply to post by logical7

Mr. Confusion back for another round.

I understand you don't like the title of the thread. That by making a contrast it becomes sensational. I'll even agree with you for the moment. But really, objecting to an attention grabbing headline on ATS? That must keep you very busy indeed.

Why not discuss the substance of the thread?

It seems you're objecting to the fact that the Pope didn't condemn Israel in his message. First, that's not the purpose of the annual message encouraging respect for differing peoples and religions. Do you object when the President issues a Thanksgiving Day proclamation without mentiong waste treatment plant repairs?

Second, it doesn't appear that this Pope is interested in condemning people. Does everybody have to? Or, are some allowed to just love others?

Why do you see the muslim identity of Iran as relavent her when you yourself are not a fan of Israel and know that they have broken countless UN resolutions and committed horrible attrocities?

You don't see a connection between an article in which a religious leader urges respect and understanding, and one in which a religious government leader urges destruction of a country founded for members of a religion?

When a muslim speaks against israel does he automatically get labelled a jew hater? It appears so by your title.

"Speaks against?" No, that's fine. Calling for the end of a country which was created by the Jewish (Zionist) movement? Weelllll, not so fine.

Originally posted by wildtimes
And here's what the out-going Iran President said today in his departure speech:
Iran's Ahmadinejad warns Israel will be 'uprooted'

Iran's outgoing President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned arch-foe Israel Friday in one of his last public speeches that a regional storm was brewing that would "uproot" the Jewish state.

"I will inform you with God as my witness, a devastating storm is on the way that will uproot the basis of Zionism," Ahmadinejad said in Quds (Jerusalem) Day remarks broadcast on state television.

Mmmhmmm. Not sounding like a Pope-defender. The incoming President has called Israel a "wound" on the Muslim world. This sounds scary ominous to me.

Zionism is a wound on all earth and that the UN have not stopped it is insane. It is not the state Israel that is the problem but the occupation and creating a Ghetto. Funny when the Jews are treated badly by nazis humanity do the right thing but when part of the Jews (Zionist) do the same thing and are close to the same monster nobody do anything. But Israel needs lebensraum for their settlements. There is no peace that should be brokered. Out of the occupied parts directly and stop building settlements and stalling for time so that we should feel sorry for the families when they are thrown out. The 1947 borders are the ones that should be used.

What would the US do is they where occupied by China and lost everything but Alaska dumping all citizens there and then migrating Chinese to take over the land? Would you say we want half the states back or settle for 60% of the land?

I am amazed that the US threw out the Iraq from Kuwait. It seems there is a different standard when dealing with Zionists.

This is not about religion. It is about conquers of war wanting more and getting greedy. Shame on all humanity for allowing this. Shame

reply to post by charles1952

It seems you're objecting to the fact that the Pope didn't condemn Israel in his message.

you are Wrong.

Do you object when the President issues a
Thanksgiving Day proclamation
without mentiong waste treatment
plant repairs?

NO, Its more like a title "pope urges respect for all religions; the president talks about eradicating Taliban"!
Israel is like taliban for muslims. Until it ceases its terrorist activities and let go the idea of a jewish state.
Just like you don't like the idea of taliban establishing an islamic state.

Second, it doesn't appear that this
Pope is interested in condemning
people. Does everybody have to? Or,
are some allowed to just love others?

strawman

You don't see a connection between
an article in which a religious leader
urges respect and understanding, and
one in which a religious government
leader urges destruction of a country
founded for members of a religion?

i see it but i see that you see only half the truth. The objection is to how it was founded and how it continues to be expanded..

"Speaks against?" No, that's fine.
Calling for the end of a country which
was created by the Jewish (Zionist)
movement? Weelllll, not so fine.

its your opinion.
If ending terrorism is fine then ending the power of terrorist state is also fine. The people can still co-exist.
But if the objective of the state in question is to achieve more land to establish an israel mentioned in the OT by getting Sinai, Golan height etc and that is done by shedding blood of innocents and causing turmoil and wars in the region then any objective and moral person would call for an end to this "movement"!

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

Thanks for posting a response, good of you.

Something jumped out at me that I'd like to clear up before we go any further.

Until it ceases its terrorist activities and let go the idea of a jewish state.

The Jewish state has been in existence for 60 years. It has been built up, developed, and become home to millions. It is vastly more valuable than when the first received it from the UN.

It seems that you are suggesting that the Jews let someone else take it over and either live there under someone else's rule, or flee to (somewhere?). If that's what you meant, I assume you know that no Israeli government, for that matter no government anywhere, would willingly agree to that. If it is that or war, then there will be war.

I suppose the Arab nations don't think they will be defeated again, even without the aid of the US?

That's why I'm pretty sure I've misunderstood you.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by logical7

 

Dear logical7,

Thanks for posting a response, good of you.

Something jumped out at me that I'd like to clear up before we go any further.

Until it ceases its terrorist activities and let go the idea of a jewish state.

The Jewish state has been in existence for 60 years. It has been built up, developed, and become home to millions. It is vastly more valuable than when the first received it from the UN.

It seems that you are suggesting that the Jews let someone else take it over and either live there under someone else's rule, or flee to (somewhere?). If that's what you meant, I assume you know that no Israeli government, for that matter no government anywhere, would willingly agree to that. If it is that or war, then there will be war.

I suppose the Arab nations don't think they will be defeated again, even without the aid of the US?

That's why I'm pretty sure I've misunderstood you.

With respect,
Charles1952

That does not justify the continuing annexation of more land after 1947. Look at the picture it speaks for itself and is evident who is the bully and conquer of land.

A call to world peace is always welcoming. But Peace can not be achieved until each and every face of injustice, tyranny, and oppression is known and rejected. This includes all humans, regardless of religion, color, nationality, culture, etc.


Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all individually anticipating a global battle where their own representative will become victorious over all other faiths. Each of their end times eschatologies prophesy a carnage filled massacre of non-believers in order to establish God's rule. A Jewish/Zionist one world government? A Jesus one world government? A Mahdi one world government? None of them anticipate a world of understanding built on peace which isn't built on blood.

reply to post by charles1952

The Jewish state has been in existence for 60 years. It has been built up, developed, and become home to millions. It is vastly more valuable than when the first received it from the UN.

more valuable?
If i snatch a gold coin from you and make it into a beautiful ring. How many years do you think it would require for that gold to be called as mine?
I am just calling a thief a thief. Now if that is a crime then i'l be proud to be called a criminal.

I suppose the Arab nations don't think
they will be defeated again, even
without the aid of the US?

Muslims are taught by their religion to fight for what is right and not be bothered about the odds or losing, its not about just winning. Its about not giving in to wrongs.

I would like you to clear something.
Are you suggesting that after all the inhumane acts committed by a state for 60 years, they should be allowed to stay because they are too big to fall? and because they are there from a long time?
I like to do an excercise and i suggest you to do it and reply to me.
I change the religions/nationality/race etc of people in a conflict and see how i feel. If i feel differently then i know i am biased in some way.
So, try this. Replace zionists with muslims, palestinians with christians/Americans(actually there are palestinian christians) and US with Iran/Saudi.

Do you still have the same opinion?

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

I'm sorry my reply is so tardy, but the outside world called, and I had trouble trying to adjust my point of view as you requested.

I want to thank you very much for suggesting that exercise, it is an excellent one and helps keep our minds flexible. I would recommend it to everyone.

I like to do an excercise and i suggest you to do it and reply to me.
I change the religions/nationality/race etc of people in a conflict and see how i feel. If i feel differently then i know i am biased in some way.
So, try this. Replace zionists with muslims, palestinians with christians/Americans(actually there are palestinian christians) and US with Iran/Saudi.

Do you still have the same opinion?

In answer to your question, I don't know. The reason for that is I tried to erase all past history, and just put the nations, or beliefs, in the lands as you suggested. When I did, it seemed to me that the Christians would say, "This is crazy, I'm going to the United States. Heck, they're letting everybody in. Failing that, we're going to some other Christian country where we can be free."

Give the Muslims the country, they have most of it and fighting them for it is a losing proposition and will only cause new deaths. But watch to make sure they don't try any military expansion.

That's not a good answer, but it's the one that came to mind first.

I noticed that after the 1967 war, Israel had the Sinai, West Bank, and Gaza. They've given back the Sinai, Gaza and portions of the West Bank. That doesn't sound like land grabbing to me, but there's a lot I don't know.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
OP, its also clear that you're trying to stir the pot with the thread title.
You're basically saying "Look how sweet these guys are, while those guys are being so mean".
You know very well that the two stories are unrelated, but you still decided to contrast them anyway.

Its really not too hard to find a feel good story about one group and then contrast it with an unrelated story about another group doing things most people wouldn't approve of.

wildtimes posts a lot of anti-Catholic threads, it gets old. Maybe she does it for the attention, for sure wildtimes knows nothing of the faith.

When God shows her personally Catholicism is THE faith (Rev 6:15-17, 1 Cor 3:13), I pray she doesn't collapse in tears and shock from what she has been shown. Worse, would be to stubbornly say "no" to God.

Pray for her conversion.

reply to post by charles1952

Give the Muslims the country, they have most of it and fighting them for it is a losing proposition and will only cause new deaths. But watch to make sure they don't try any military expansion.

That's not a good answer, but it's the one that came to mind first.

Thanks for an honest reply.

Yes its not a good answer, not good at all. It suggest that anyone with power can do what they want and we should accept it. In short "Might is right"
Forgiven me if i am wrong but i also see that your answer indicates what you want the palestinians to do.
It shows you think israel has some right to exist by some divine will etc.

I don't know if you think that the jews are a special "chosen" people and going against israel is going against God. If you do then it is very much clears why you have these views.
I should tell you that the OT does say they were chosen for a covenant. Even Qur'an affirms that but the OT continues to say that the chosen status is conditional. If they follow the covenant, obey God and help other people get closer to God and establish peace then they will be rewarded BUT if they disobey God and cause corruption in the land then their punishment would be "DOUBLE" than what it would be for someone else.

God does not play favourites we muslims know this by Qur'an. Qur'an tells me to speak the truth, stand up against wrong even if its against myself or my family. Also God says not to accept oppression for the fear of death because its God who has already ordained the time and manner of death for each and none can escape it.
If you had believed this, your answer may have been different.

reply to post by dollukka

I personally believe that this is a publicity stunt and nothing more. The target group is too busy to listen.

yes the target group is too busy in bashing Islam and spreading hatred
No mutual respect is shown even by some people here on ATS, no matter how much their Pope urges them..

reply to post by NewAgeMan

P.S. Please don't cut off the heads of people just for being Christian (while shouting "God is great"), any more. Thank you.

At first I saw your post and thought, "I did what? When!?" Then I read back to see if you'd added this as an afterthought directed at me --
now I get it.
Yes, that would have been a good P.S. for the Pope to put in there.

reply to post by logical7

I have the same objection to the title of this thread as Sk0rpie.

(Gee, how did I guess?) Surprise, surprise!

It was not a deliberate 'sensationalist' link - it is a TODAY IN OTHER NEWS link of the two,for crying out loud!!!

Threads are meant to be provocative for discussion of real issues - and this is a real issue. I wanted to start a discussion about the disparity between world leaders at THIS MOMENT IN TIME. Obama is hunting with drones, Iran is condemning Israel, Syria is being ripped to pieces, and the Pope is calling for peace.

I say "Good on him!" Yet, with the vicious PTB in actual control of military killing devices, the words get lost. Only "the People" will benefit from it. I AGREE with what he said.

Apparently you do not.
Another surprise of dazzling proportions. (Not.)

reply to post by colbe

wildtimes posts a lot of anti-Catholic threads, it gets old. Maybe she does it for the attention, for sure wildtimes knows nothing of the faith.

Woops! "Thou shalt not bear false witness," colbe. Shame on you.

My posts are steadfastly anti-ANY-organized-religion that includes violence as a means to an imagined "end."
:shk:

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by wildtimes
The timing is abysmal,

There will never be a perfect time for the pope to make a statement of peace and respect to the Muslim people. That part of the world is always in chaos. Ya' know?? He's just gotta' say it and hope that something sticks (which I doubt anything will)

i maybe wrong but isnt the Pope the Pope of people who call themselves catholic? So shouldn't they heed the call for mutual respect fos religions the most?
I'l like to see how many Catholics are here..

reply to post by colbe

collapse in tears and shock from what she has been shown. Worse, would be to stubbornly say "no" to God.

Pray for her conversion.

Erm, you DO realize, colbe, that Sk0rpion is a Muslim apologist? You just suggested a Muslim should pray for my conversion! Well, you two sort it out, then. Pray yourselves silly (and blue in the face, if you like) on my account.

While I appreciate your efforts, my soul is in neither of your hands, and your efforts will cancel one another out, leaving me with a more objective and studied belief system. And whatever God decides to show me himself is what I will accept, thank you very much.
Save your prayers for someone who is more deserving.


Oh, and P.S. making threads only from "channelled" frauds and presenting it as "fact" while discouraging discussion is, well, tiresome.

reply to post by wildtimes

Obama is hunting with drones, Iran is condemning Israel, Syria is being ripped to pieces, and the Pope is calling for peace.

why didnt you put "...; While Obama continues drone strikes in Pakistan"

Obama is a christian and the Pope is urging for peace. Right?
Do you forget that Obama is a christian when he does horrible acts while remember Ahmadinijad as muslim even when he "says" something that you percieve as wrong?

Its like making the apartheid issue of south africa as a colour issue. And when someone talks about eradicating that apartheid you take it as hate against whites!

I'l make it more easy to understand for you. What muslims feel about Israel has nothing to do with their religion but their inhumane actions. If they have agenda to continue it and the zionist movement is responsible to forward and realise that oppressive agenda then we want that movement to exist no more.

I say "Good on him!" Yet, with the
vicious PTB in actual control of military
killing devices, the words get lost. Only
"the People" will benefit from it. I
AGREE with what he said. Apparently you do not.
Another surprise of dazzling
proportions. (Not.)

Apparently you are wrong about me.
Muslims have no problems respect christians and jews, the trouble started when muslims started percieving the attacks on their countries as the work of Zionist-christian alliance and when they see that the christians in the west are either silent or support it.
Also it doesnt help when the muslims see their religion being mocked and smeared by some christians in the West.
So i see that their is a need to show respect for Islam and lead by example. Right? Maybe the Pope was equally addressing the christians to show respect to Islam but that would be too much to ask for..