Is it against the law for us to create art in this surveillance state we live in?

I have to say though,
I think even Leni Riefenstahl
had better taste in art and composition.
than the grunting man two posts previous.


Mike

Originally posted by rawheroine

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
Just like that redwood tree,
this tree was waiting for someone,
anyone,
to make its story into a piece of art,
or a piece of art about it,
so that it would be cherished and it's life preserved.

It's too late for the Sahara, and the last tree in it,
but it's not too late for that redwood tree.

Mike

edit on 30-7-2013 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)

What you wrote here really stuck with me, I came back and read it a few times more! I feel conflicted about this the more I think about it and apply it to my own experiences, though. Does "giving" someone (or something) a storyline increase its value, or does it degrade it? If a human's life is manipulated by outside forces, say, "God", is that beautiful or horrific? If it's artfully done, replete with puns, archetypes, style, deeper meaning, jokes, personal touches - what is that? High art or just higher quality consumerism? I feel we're in a post-post-modern era now where everything has been degraded and used so much, the only art that's left is in daily life, the art of living. Cramming art/advertisements/tags/references/jokes into every available crevice.

I feel that it is both,
and I look at it this way.
By making an ordinary life
into a work of art it makes it
accessible to the wealthy and deaf.

The owners and the mega-merchants who
recognize no value in something God made like
a redwood tree unless it comes with the trappings
and clues that they can understand. The tones that
they can hear, through all the cares they are clogged with.

Originally posted by rawheroine
I'm thinking of this one quote from Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut that really sticks in my craw:
"The worst thing that could possibly happen to anybody would be to not be used for anything by anybody. Thank you for using me, even though I didn't want to be used by anybody."
I think what gets me about that is his use of "use" (if you'll pardon my Bill Clinton-ism.) Are human beings, and animals and plants for that matter, alive in order to be "used" by someone with a supposedly higher vision? Is that redwood beautiful when it's alive and serving its living purpose? Or is it more beautiful when it's harvested and cut, filed, sanded, honed into something else by an artist with a vision? Is the redwood entitled to a natural life as it was born, or is its godliness and art in the potential of its matter?

In my experience Rulers and Power brokers find art that
they don't approve of very threatening, precisely
because they recognize it's value. Where
before they were deaf and could
ignore it's existence.


Mike

We are here to help each other through this thing, whatever it is.

- Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Really interesting perspective, thanks!
I think I agree - the Nobs need to label everything, which, to them, is probably like naming a pet. There's a fondness there, but also a bit of pity, and no sense or care of the thing in its natural state. All the supposedly arcane symbols that have made such a resurgence lately make me think of this - they label and compartmentalize everything! This gravely injures anything sacred.
For some people, though, this is the highest art - I think of the Jewish mentality in religion, and then of modern science mentality, and even modern "comedy" and culture. Everything has a label, it's one's own responsibility to label oneself for ease of use - the internet helps, tattoos help, people who "identify" as something all help in the labeling process.
This has started to mean to me: We can be whoever we want as long as it's defined, pinned down, permanent, and therefore, lifeless and immobile! Also, make sure to take tons of pictures and videos of it, record the audio, tag relevant keywords, and send it to any interested parties. Slice yourself up and dish yourself out.

It really does seem fun for a while, though, all the compartmentalization. It feels like being helpful, like making something messy all nice and clean and accessible to all. But that fun wears off quickly when everything loses value because it's available to everyone anywhere at any time. Everything is pinned down, labeled, compartmentalized, and utilized by the artist, "artist", sadist, Nazi (as you helpfully illustrated!)
I used to wonder how the bad, mean Nazis could be so interested in art and esoteric matters. I'm pretty convinced that their mentality of fetishistic study and heartless objectification of life are closely related to many artistic and architectural mentalities.

Originally posted by rawheroine

Owch,
really pinned that butterfly down didn't they.

I was hoping your art wasn't going to be the expression of pain.

But if that is to be,
I find that the ultimate symbol of pain
is the dragon. That is to say,
a dragon = pain,
or dragon is a code word for pain.

Consider Bruce Lee's "Enter the Dragon"
in the movie, his sister had died in the middle of the same thugs
he was sent to defeat.


Myself I prefer to make the living butterfly into Art.



After getting this issue of National Geographic,
back in the day,
I waited for the season described,
and took my brothers and sisters into the back yard
(I'm the oldest of five)
made them all sit in a circle,
and be very very still.

Sure enough ... the monarchs started to land on us.
When my Mother looked out the kitchen window
she couldn't believe it,
we were covered in them,
being very still,
and breathing slowly.




But if your art has to express the pain first,
do it! Go for it!
Make a dragon butterfly
that shoots mounting pins at its former captors
and hunts down heartless Entomologists.

As with all dragons,
the mystery should be in it's name.


Mike

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Love the living butterflies! What's most beautiful about them is their wings, which look beautiful because they are functional for flying, and are really not that beautiful when pinned down to a piece of cardboard.
Hey - compartmentalization is not my art, it's just what our modern way of being is, which I find unfortunate and personally offensive. And I do honestly believe that it is a Nazi approach to art and being, and it is very dangerous to real nature and beauty.
I was agreeing with you that giving something a story gives it life and preserves it, but it has to be done in a way that honors the natural life of the tree, not in a way that uses it up as a material. I prefer the living redwood to a bench that functions as a parking spot for human butts. No more chairs!! No more pinned down butterflies!! No more leopard skin rugs!!

Do you think news stories can be art? Like, ones that are discussed round these parts? I do.

Originally posted by rawheroine
Do you think news stories can be art? Like, ones that are discussed round these parts? I do.

Absolutely,
here are two examples to comparison and contrast.






Remnants of a Lost World...,
Flags: 223
Stars: 200
posted on 27-12-2012
Thread Author: SLAYER69



A personal Gun story you won't see on the news!!,
Flags: 246
Stars: ~
posted on 11-5-2011
Thread Author: getreadyalready




The first one contains research and history, mystery, and photos. What could have been a dry academic exercise is enlivened by an Author who questions their own knowledge and brings us along as they try to make sense of the past.

The second one contains a personal story. Told by the member as eye witness to the events, and segways into criticism of crime statistics in general. But most important, they created a safe environment for people discuss their own views.

In both cases the Author DOES NOT

claim to have all the answers
come off as absolutist or inflexable
feel like they are talking down to us
react badly to replies

But how is that Art?

Well, in the "Ancient & Lost Civilizations thread:" The thread is better than some history channel shows I've seen. Contains pictures and info I had never seen before. And sheds light on a murky subject. The members here really engaged with the Author.

And in the "Greyarea: Personal Stories thread:" Law abiding Gun owners had a day in the sun, and as politics in America still show, they are not willing to be pushed back into the shadows. The members here really engaged with the Author.


Mike

Art was a window washer on state street in Madison WI.

Art is a street musician in Madison WI.

At least that's some stuff I read on T-shirts claim that's what Art is, I knew both of them and they were Art in name only.

Art is what is produced when people have spare time to spend doing nothing of consequence, I was considered an artist once, but it didn't put food on the table so I moved on to being a run-of-the-mill debt peon.

As far as art being against the law, spray-painting on somebody else's wall should be unlawful.

Originally posted by rawheroine
I prefer the living redwood to a bench that functions as a parking spot for human butts. No more chairs!! No more pinned down butterflies!! No more leopard skin rugs!!

I think the best way to emphasize the living tree
is with time lapse. But the technique has
a long way to go before is resonates
like art. It's a new field, and
waiting for pioneers.




And yeah, living leopards!


Mike

Originally posted by MyHappyDogShiner
Art was a window washer on state street in Madison WI.

Art is a street musician in Madison WI.

At least that's some stuff I read on T-shirts claim that's what Art is, I knew both of them and they were Art in name only.

Art is what is produced when people have spare time to spend doing nothing of consequence, I was considered an artist once, but it didn't put food on the table so I moved on to being a run-of-the-mill debt peon.

As far as art being against the law, [color=gold] spray-painting on somebody else's wall should be unlawful.

But the Government,
specifically FEMA,
does it.


Mike

reply to post by mikegrouchy


That's one thing I continue to find to be of value and joy on the internet - that a "regular person" can teach his/her fellow citizens so well. Some of us want to learn, even if we're supposedly all done with "school", and find that almost no one cares to even want to teach, answer questions, exchange information and ideas. I admire people who have information and wisdom to share, and also have the magnanimity in their hearts and the artistic talent to successfully impart the wisdom to others. Plenty of people want to "give" information, which tends to get dictatorial, but the threads you shared, and this one right here, are about SHARING information and wisdom. Well done!!

I was thinking about news being art in a different way as well, like the news items themselves being art, evidence of a human writer/director, or divine intervention, or something. The Snowden story for example - it has jokes and pop culture references (Snow - "Informer", The Terminal, etc.), archetypes (Snow White, David and Goliath), anagrams, as above-so below connotations, philosophical questions, coherence, metaphors, and, most importantly, makes the viewer question his or herself deeply. Really a nicely done production, and the metaphors have legs - they'll take you all over the place if you let them. I don't want to pin down the whole thing, but that's why I think news items are worth analyzing, because they're all little passion plays in and of themselves. If we're in the Truman Show, might as well give up a little applause when Christof does something semi-brilliant, right?
That's why I think that life is really the only art left. A painting does a lot, but how far can it travel? I think DARPA is kind of the last to know that a narrative can bring something to life and also sustain its life, direct it, mold it, teach it. The story of the last tree in the desert being demolished by a drunk driver is poetry. It's a tragedy, but it's well done, isn't it?

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Look how much the animals enjoy the yard and the tree in the time lapse video! It's like a family home movie, here's the tree when it was 1 year old playing with the dog, etc. Telling the story the tree can't tell itself but would like to - that's beautiful. And making it a part of something.
I would hate to see a time lapse video of one of the poor redwoods in Bohemian Grove, though. Lots of old men in witch robes taking leaks on it, I'd imagine.

Originally posted by rawheroine

That's one thing I continue to find to be of value and joy on the internet - that a "regular person" can teach his/her fellow citizens so well. Some of us want to learn, even if we're supposedly all done with "school", and find that almost no one cares to even want to teach, answer questions, exchange information and ideas. I admire people who have information and wisdom to share, and also have the magnanimity in their hearts and the artistic talent to successfully impart the wisdom to others. Plenty of people want to "give" information, which tends to get dictatorial, but the threads you shared, and this one right here, are about SHARING information and wisdom. Well done!!

I was thinking about news being art in a different way as well, like the news items themselves being art, evidence of a human writer/director, or divine intervention, or something. The Snowden story for example - it has jokes and pop culture references (Snow - "Informer", The Terminal, etc.), archetypes (Snow White, David and Goliath), anagrams, as above-so below connotations, philosophical questions, coherence, metaphors, and, most importantly, makes the viewer question his or herself deeply. Really a nicely done production, and the metaphors have legs - they'll take you all over the place if you let them. I don't want to pin down the whole thing, but that's why I think news items are worth analyzing, because they're all little passion plays in and of themselves. If we're in the Truman Show, might as well give up a little applause when Christof does something semi-brilliant, right?
That's why I think that life is really the only art left. A painting does a lot, but how far can it travel? I think DARPA is kind of the last to know that a narrative can bring something to life and also sustain its life, direct it, mold it, teach it. The story of the last tree in the desert being demolished by a drunk driver is poetry. It's a tragedy, but it's well done, isn't it?

Well said,
and I particularly agree with the part about Christof
representing a nicely done production,
just like our news-o-tainment these days.

New is also art.
There I said it.

I'm reluctant because
once established it's too easy to get trapped
in a recursive algorithm where
a news story about news being art
is examined for the art of the story saying it was art.
And then _that_ becomes a story,
and on, and on, into a hall of mirrors.

But yeah,
art, propaganda, information, gossip, news...
what's the difference?


Mike

Originally posted by rawheroine

Look how much the animals enjoy the yard and the tree in the time lapse video! It's like a family home movie, here's the tree when it was 1 year old playing with the dog, etc.

Telling the story the tree can't tell itself but would like to - that's beautiful. And making it a part of something.
I would hate to see a time lapse video of one of the poor redwoods in Bohemian Grove, though. Lots of old men in witch robes taking leaks on it, I'd imagine.

Well hopefully the Redwood's story would be ages
of trials, storms, and glory,
with only a blip of white robes around it.


Mike

Maybe art is against the law.
Particularly when it is done as graffiti on corporate property.

But I didn't know it carried the death penalty.


Mike

Colombian-born Israel Hernandez-Llach died on Tuesday after police shocked him with a Taser as he ran away from officers who caught him spray-painting the wall of a shuttered McDonald's.

yahoo.com / hundreds mourn tazered miami graffiti artist
23 hours ago