Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

Ive learned from this thread. Never take the bus in Toronto with a pocketknife on your person. The LEO's up there are a little on the trigger happy side of the line. Was it more than one LEO who opened fire? Lets get something straight. If the boy exposed himself on this bus, as in pulled out his penis and swagged it around. What were they afraid of being impaled by it? Lets see. 17yr old with a penis & a 3 inch blade, about 9 LEO's with probally 40cal's and 16 round clips.

Wow must have been some penis for the LEO's to pull 10 times. Because that knife is shorter than your middle finger. I have also learned the LEO's up there are a bunch of wussies.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm probably going to blow this all out of proportion, but I feel I have to say it. If any of you feel that my theory doesn't hold water, no harm - no foul.

Let's say I'm a cop. In this day and age I am probably trained to recognize a person's place of origin. In this case, a person from the Middle East. This young man cleared the passengers off the bus. Why? I don't know. Did he plan on taking the bus and crashing it into a highly populated area? I don't know. Did he have a bomb on the bus? I don't know.

Do I want to take a chance that this unstable person might get away with that bus, or set off a bomb right there? Would you take that chance?

edit on 7/29/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

first off you need to remember this was NOT a BUS, it was a STREETCAR, HUGE difference between both vehicles, especially for your "hypothesis". a streetcar is essentially a train that runs on TRACKS, placed in the street. so he could NOT have been " taking the bus and crashing it into a highly populated area". he could only take it where there was not only "tracks" but "overhead" to give it power. it would have been rather simple to "CUT THE POWER" to keep him from moving it, since it relies on the overhead for electric power to run. that is IF he had a clue as to how it worked in the first place like the fact that he would HAVE TO BE SEATED as there is a "dead-man switch" built in that will apply the brakes if the seat is not occupied. even WITH POWER he could only have gone where the tracks took him that could have been manually switched to take him where THEY wanted him to go, cutting off HIS ability to use the "switches" from the streetcar, that is if he had any clue on how to do so in the first place. not only that but chances are because of inexperience even IF he got it going he would have either "taken down the overhead" (something easily done if you have NO CLUE on how to drive one), or at the very least having the "pole" loose contact with the overhead. in both cases stopping the streetcar dead in it's tracks. my father drove every type of TTC vehicle through the years, trolley (an electric bus run off of overhead, gotten rid of long ago ), bus, subway and streetcar, as well as assorted relatives and family friends that worked for the TTC.

i suppose he could have had a bomb. but why would he have gotten all the passengers off? wouldn't he have kept them on to be blown up?

so as you can see he would NOT have been able to "take off" with the streetcar, since there was no one ON the streetcar it seems rather pointless to "blow it up".with only himself to be a victim of the explosion. so sorry your theory does not hold water at all. the cops had all the time in the world to deal with this kid to try almost anything to end it peacefully, like actually negotiating him down, and find out just what the heck was going on.

no harm no foul

reply to post by Hefficide


Yes there were nine shots all together and why the kid didn't just drop the knife I don't understand. Maybe he did but you can't actually see what happened through the street car windows.

My guess to why they had to shoot nine rounds is that the bullets in the cops gun were probably old and their shelf life was about to expire anyway, so I guess they just decided to used them up while they had the chance.

Originally posted by juniperberry
Geez.. after the Polish traveller Dziekanski dies at YVR several years ago, everyone is all up in arms about taser use and they they shouldn't be used, are dangerous, etc.

Now everyone is screaming that the cops should have used a taser instead of a gun..

Get it together people..

Or maybe you'd all like the cops to revert to billy clubs again? Let the criminals have the guns and knives and the cops can just sit back and let anarchy reign...

Good luck with that.

ok get this straight..the fawkin cops tazered dziekanski 5 goddam times even though he went down on the first hit and then refused to remove his cuffs and let emt's treat him..THEY DID NOT DEPLOY THE WEAPON PROPERLY..and are on trial for perjury..part of that charge was the lie that they ALL said claiming only one hit was delivered meanwhile the tazer records the # of times deployed

Even though the guy had a knife, and was obviously dangerous, because....well, someone brandishing a knife on a bus usually means business, cops should've set on the step of the bus with an acoustic guitar and sang a hippy peace song. The guy would've totally gave up and sang along!! yeah. That's how I interpret hippy-liberal thinking. The cops were justified.

Speaking from experience, they should have used less-lethal munitions. I have deployed the bean bag on knife wielders several times and it is completely effective. We also have flash bangs and tear gas as an option. The TASER would be a last resort as it has a 15-21 foot reach and is highly inaccurate and ineffective if both probes do not connect for reasons such as clothing or a miss etc.

Well I anticipate the shooters either get fired or a huge suspension. They really need to train these guys before letting them loose on the streets. They make good cops look bad.

reply to post by Fylgje

yes a man with a 3" knife in one hand and his dick in the other on an empty bus where he told the passengers to get off sounds extremley dangerous, good thing they didnt try reasoning or finding out what his problems were

The local report are saying the knife is less than 3 Inch. and only few media is actually mentioned the knife.

Also here comes some ignorance.... A LOT of people HERE in TORONTO, under the thought that street car was full of passengers...

Just had a conversation with some co-workers... ignorant bunch of fruits.

All they say is "he must be trouble" "something more to it" "no way they would shoot for no reason"... however they agree it was excessive force tho.

This is not the first murder by cop nor will it be the last.

And RCMP has this thing where they police themselves, wink wink, nod nod,

Enough already with the "shoot him in the leg stuff" ... we all know that anyone, anywhere trained to shoot any kind of firearm is taught endlessly to aim for the center body mass. A discharged firearm should only be used to kill, or intend to kill - that's what it was designed to do.

It would be like training a boxer to not knockout their opponent with their knockout punch.

That being said - these police had no reason to discharge at the time they did. This kid died needlessly.

reply to post by RedParrotHead


That is the leading point now in the community.

A trained person, wearing armor... with al the other technique to subdue a 110 pound teenager with a 2.5 inch knife, he decided to shoot? no less than 9x?

From the guy who shot the video.

“This is what was weird. He looked like he was frozen, in shock. He was standing with the knife up at shoulder height beside his head. The whole time I saw him, I didn’t see him move. He really looked like he was just frozen,” Baron said.

reply to post by alonzo730

Everybody seems to be waiting for the inquiry.

I'll correct that for you:
Everyone SHOULD be waiting for the inquiry.

I have seen the term "presumption of innocence" used quite often on this site. Unfortunately, most of those who like to spout it, don't like to apply the term equally, or even accurately.

As I see it, the last person that could have prevented this incident is now dead, and it was, mostly, his own fault that he died.

See ya,
Milt

Well, obviously I don't know the full story, but from what I see on the video, its pretty damning overall.
6 guys with guns verses 1 guy with a knife, about 20 feet, stairs, and other such obstacles separating them. they were not in jeopardy.
I also didn't see any hostages

Again, not knowing the full story (will let facts come out in court), but from first view, I am thinking at least one cop should be going to the big house for manslaughter at minimum. Its hard to say though. I think not just forensics need be involved here, but also psychotherapists to figure out the mindset of the shooter in question. He may have felt legitimately threatened for some absurd reason (not that he was, but in his mind sort of thing), or he may have simply seen a brown person and..well, you get the point.

But best to sit back and see what comes of it. Will stay on the side for now same as I did in zimmey and see what facts unfold.
but initial reaction is that there is no immediate threat that warranted deadly force.

6 officers with guns vs 1 man with a knife and this is the best solution they could muster.
Anyone with problem solving skills above a potato could have managed a better outcome.

New security video has been posted. In the stills below, you see the police still firing after Yatim is already down:



You can see the entire video here:

news.nationalpost.com...

Could have just dropped the knife, didn't.

Could have used less than lethal means to take the offender down, didn't.

Looks ridiculous on both ends.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
reply to post by defcon5

 

If we're going to be nitpicky, it's not actually a rule, it's more of a guideline. The point is, if you are pointing your gun at someone already, it doesn't matter how fast they are, if they are more than arm's length away, your bullet will reach them before they reach you, and if you also have the luxury of being able to move backwards or away from the threat, all the better. By rights, if you are worthy of owning a gun and already have it pointed at a threat, nobody should be able to get near enough to you with a blade to cause any damage before you have shot them. This is all assuming you are able-bodied, which police supposedly are.

And by this post you have proven that you are not qualified to comment on the matter.
I am a student of self defense. I have attended many classes taught by top tier personal defense instructors. Your assertion that no one should get near enough to harm you with a blade before you shoot them is making a large number of assumptions.
1. That the distance is sufficent enough for you to get shots off. Despite what you say you really dont have to be that fast to get off the line of fire and attack someone who has a gun. Distance does matter and the larger the distance the greater the chance the shooter can catch up to him and make shots. We are talking from about 3 to 7 yards.
2. That you have sufficent awareness to react. If you have never trained for an attacker to suddenly rush you while making erratic angle changes you may completely freeze up and never pull the trigger.
3. That a single shot will stop the attacker. Hollywood is not reality. The entertainment industry has completely warped the public mind about gunshots and there effects. Why is it that heros can sustain multiple gunshot wounds and continue to fight off the bad guys but the bad guys leap through the air with fountains of blood if a bullet even grazes their sholder? The effects of gunshot wounds on the body are unpredictable. One round may be sufficent to bring an attack to an end but it may take many more even on someone who is not "hyped up on PCP". You just dont know. You shoot until the threat stops. That is proper training.

Winning a fight is not easy. Thats why those of us who actually own and carry weapons daily do what we can to avoid fights. People need to divorce themselves from these movie visions that an attacker can just be shot in the leg or intentionally wounded to stop them. That is complete BS. They also need to abandon the notion that someone with a knife is helpless against someone with a gun. That is garbage as well. For those who think a 3 inch blade is somehow less deadly understand that your heart is less than 3 inches from the surface of your chest. Stabbed into you that 3 inch blade is deadly.
I do not fault police officers from shooting someone 9 times or being defensive about someone in close proximity with a knife even a 3 inch one.

NOW that being said. I do not think the police needed to result to shooting this young man. It appeared to me that he was alone on the bus and could be contained with little risk to the officers or public. Given his age I think they should have immediately considered this a mentle health situation and quickly contained the area and the young man until special personnel could arrive to de-escalate the situation. I dont think he presented a sufficent level of danger to the officers while he was on the bus. Had he left the bus then the conditions would have changed an be more in line with what I described above.

They obviously didn't need to shoot the kid 9 times for waving a knife around, in contrast a soldier gets beheaded in the uk and the police managed to subdue the killers non lethally by using 8 bullets between the two of them.

Trigger happy/excessive/murderous take your pick but it wasn't right and anyone who thinks otherwise I'm happy for you that this kind of thing isn't terrifying to you, how fortunate you are.

It really chills me to the bone to see people who are supposed to be enforcing the law and protecing people committing murder because that is what happened. If you think a teenager waving a small knife around making no immediate threat warrants being shot to peices let alone deserves it then there's clearly something wrong with you.

Cops in Toronto are HARD UP TO KILL. Fact. They fight internally for the most dangerous areas of the city to patrol. Every possible opportunity for them to use their gun and they're on it like flies on turd. NINE shots and THEN a taser - within 2 minutes of arriving on scene - while other cops can be seen standing around with their arms crossed and seemingly bored.

Originally posted by Theprimevoyager
Could have just dropped the knife, didn't.

Could have used less than lethal means to take the offender down, didn't.

Looks ridiculous on both ends.

The difference being one end is a disturbed young man/child and the other end is a bunch of professional law enforcers.