Swiss woman gang-rape: 6 accused awarded life imprisonment

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Ah, so your whole effort was to prove a mute point. Congrats!

The still leaves my original point intact, the whole rape culture is an outcrop of Islam.

And you are welcome to maintain your delusional beliefs. Rape existed long before Islam, but you have your scape goat and I am sure that the two of you are very happy together. That you back track and contradict yourself, repeatedly, renders your point somewhat blunt though, and certainly without any basis in reality.

This is the worst crime in my opinion. If that was my wife I would hunt them down individually and brutally torture then in a mine shaft.

No remorse for those wicked souls.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


You are the one clinging to fairy tales.

Do you want to move forward into a world where women can walk around free and safe?

Or do you prefer the burqa?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

You are the one clinging to fairy tales.

Do you want to move forward into a world where women can walk around free and safe?

Or do you prefer the burqa?

I would love a world where women can work around free and safe, until that time though, I can fully understand why some women choose to wear a burqa, and indeed why some males are so scared of the way that their daughters and wives are perceived by society, that they insist upon them wearing a burqa.

When I was in my late teens I read an autobiography of Noor Inayat Khan, who had served with SOE in France as a radio operator, and was subsequently shot as a spy. Anyway, her father was an Indian Sufi, descended from a noble line, her mother though was an American. Noor's mother left a lasting impression on me, as much as her daughter's incredible bravery did, because despite her husband's protestations, she chose to wear the burqa, not because of religious affiliation, although she did convert to Sufism, but because of how 'free' she felt wearing it. I could relate to that. I had just left school and was battling with anorexia, the last three years of my life I had had to deal with sexual harrassment from two male teachers, and it had left with me with a deep loathing of my appearance and a wish to be invisible. I also had had to deal with similar harrassment from a customer at work, but in that case I was lucky enough to have a female colleague who helped me through it. I could therefore, at that stage in my development, truly appreciate why Noor's mother would enjoy the freedom from that kind of objectification. I didn't have that option though, so I learnt to deal with it, and like many young girls, through other experiences, learnt to be very careful about who I trusted, who I got drunk in the company of, and so and so forth.

After years of paternalistic protection, young Indian women are facing the same difficulties as women in the West experience, and running along the same learning curve, unfortunately for them, they do not have the laws or support networks that young women have here in the UK, and possibly in the US. As I got older, I realised that I didn't have to, and shouldn't have put up with the sexual harrassment that I experienced, however, when you are young, you are open to manipulative techniques that leave you vulnerable, and it is easy to be made to feel as though you are responsible for the actions of those attempting to take advantage of that, but society does too, which is a much wider problem, and if we are to even begin to address the problem of rape in all societies we have to look at that. So while as a teenager I would have welcomed the burqa, as a mature adult, I see it as a cop out that reinforces societies position that rape is women's fault and that is where I personally see the real danger of Islam as existing, because as we in the west continue to objectify and over sexualise women and girls, more of those girls are turning to Islam in order to differentiate themselves from that imagery, and moreover, it is an acceptance that men, are by nature, rapists. All men, not just Islamic men as you would have us believe, and hidden with all that is the beginnings of the transmission of a hypodermic needle model of self-fulfilling prophecy. This needs to be fought against.

So yes in short, I want women to walk about safe and freely, but due to the oppressive nature of the sexual objectification of women in the west, I can fully understand women wishing to seperate themselves from that image by adopting the burqa until such a time as we truly address why women are not safe from rape and sexual assault. However, I wouldn't wear it myself because I know that men can control themselves and are not all rapists by nature, and to cover myself up, is in my opinion an insult to male intelligence and to those who don't make those kind of excuses for their behaviour.







Men rape to exercise power over a victim, not because it says it is okay in their religion, but because of a deep seated inadequacy within them, and that is what is to blame for the vast majority of rapes. As I have already acknowledged some rapes are committed by Muslims, that it without doubt, but to suggest that every rape has it's basis in Islamic culture is beyond naive and totally contradicted by the statistics for rape. The entire emphasis on prevention of rape is upon the victim themselves, and this is what creates an atmosphere that is permissive to rape. This is what needs to be addressed, not the way in which Islam perceives women, that is merely a small part of the problem, and in some ways a reaction to it as are most patriarchial structures.

reply to post by Miracula


I disagree.
We need to remove all sexual organs and put them in jail with the general population.
That way they can be everyone's b*tch in the slammer.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Within all populations, there are criminals who would take advantage of others. There are even women who falsely accuse men of rape, in order to punish them.

In societies that recognize the rights of women, where women are allowed to dress the way they desire, and still feel safe most of the time, the rates of rape are fairly low.

It does start with a clearly established cultural attitude that rape is an extremely violent crime, and those who commit this crime should face extremely stiff penalties. Locking up violent rapists permanently might be the only real answer.

As far as men objectifying women, or visa versa, I don't know if wearing a burqa makes any difference.

Some people want to be seen as sex objects, and they are comfortable with it.

Some are clearly very uncomfortable with the whole idea of sex, and that is probably where the many problems exist.

The biggest problem is a sense of self entitlement.

Originally posted by poet1b
Within all populations, there are criminals who would take advantage of others.

Exactly, that is the point that I have been trying to express all along.

Originally posted by poet1b
There are even women who falsely accuse men of rape, in order to punish them.

Yes, this does happen, but often, especially in the case of so-called 'date rapes' it is presumed that the victim 'asked for it' or regretted having sex so made a rape allegation this is prejudicial to full reporting of rape, some victims do not come forward for fear of not being believed, or of being judged. In the UK, treatment of rape victims, and the handling of rape cases has undergone significant improvement, but society as a whole still needs to catch up. It is the role of the Police to ascertain whether a rape took place, not for the media and the public to make assumptions based on the circumstances of the victim and accused.

Originally posted by poet1b
In societies that recognize the rights of women, where women are allowed to dress the way they desire, and still feel safe most of the time, the rates of rape are fairly low.

Indian women are predominantly modest in dress, and yet, as someone has already pointed out, the incidences of rape are much higher in the US. Women may seem safe, but they are safe within certain parametres, that is not to same as 'free'. Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, if women step out of those parametres, they are often adjudged to have 'asked for it'.

Originally posted by poet1b
It does start with a clearly established cultural attitude that rape is an extremely violent crime, and those who commit this crime should face extremely stiff penalties. Locking up violent rapists permanently might be the only real answer.

It is difficult, given the current penal system, certainly in the UK, provisions for the rehabilitation of criminals is very poor, so yes, automatic life sentences do make sense. However, we need to address the attitude that permits some men to think that it is 'okay' to rape, and in that, we have to consider how we are raising boys, and how the sexual objectification of women affects male attitudes to women in general. Prevention is always better than cure.

Originally posted by poet1b
As far as men objectifying women, or visa versa, I don't know if wearing a burqa makes any difference.

It is a grey area, and not one that is necessarily directly associated with rape. Studies have shown that rapist, particularly stranger rapists, tend to target more modestly dressed women, women who dress in a sexually aggressive way are more intimidating to such rapists, they seek 'passive' looking women. However, most rapists are known to their victims, stranger rapes make up a relatively small proportion of all rapes. The burqa therefore is not necessarily preventative of rape, it is more a prevention against unwanted or uninvited male attention because it doesn't draw attention to the female form. Women who wear the burqa report that they are able to go about their business without the harassment of attracting male attention, and indeed, studies show that men are less distracted both in educational and work place settings when women do not wear revealing clothing, so there is some basis on both sides. It is not though the solution, and if anything, in my opinion, it sets a precedent that reinforces the already negative perception of banding women as 'angels' or 'whores', and is all the more worrying because it is women that are helping to reinforce that judgement.

Originally posted by poet1b
Some people want to be seen as sex objects, and they are comfortable with it.

I cannot disagree with you, but I would add the caveat that there is a difference in wanting to be perceived as a sexual being, comfortable in their sexuality and being seen as an object of sexual gratification.

Originally posted by poet1b
Some are clearly very uncomfortable with the whole idea of sex, and that is probably where the many problems exist.

Again, it is a matter of perception and how one wants to be seen by others. Many rapists though do have functional or interactional problems that affect them sexually, and this may be why they rape

Originally posted by poet1b
The biggest problem is a sense of self entitlement.

No, I think the biggest problem is a lack of communication about sex in general.

on way to keep tourism up

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


I understand your point, mine is that many groups in Islam teach males that rape is fine, especially when women dress inappropriate. That needs to be changed.

The problem with the date rape issue, is that in non-date rape cases, it is more about power and control, the rape is violent, and not about sex. Their are date rape cases where the date forces himself on the woman, but then there are the cases of he said she said. That is a very different situation.

While the U.S. has a higher rate of reported rape, odds are good that India probably has a higher rate of incidences of rape, that are never reported.

I cannot disagree with you, but I would add the caveat that there is a difference in wanting to be perceived as a sexual being, comfortable in their sexuality and being seen as an object of sexual gratification.

Good point.

As far as unwanted attention goes, there are men who leer at women like leches, and there are women who act like a glance in their direction is a sexual advance. I would say there are problems on both sides of the aisle.

I would agree a lack of communication is a big problem, and that often is due to so many people having sexual hangups. The sense of self entitlement is what is used to commit these types of heinous crimes.

Originally posted by poet1b
I understand your point, mine is that many groups in Islam teach males that rape is fine, especially when women dress inappropriate. That needs to be changed.

I don't disagree, however as I have pointed out, that attitude is not in anyway isolated to Islam, it may not be taught explicitly in other factions, but if we take recent examples of high profile gang rape, such as the Ohio case, there is a certain pack mentality that comes to the fore under certain circumstances where it appears that such activity is considered permissible.

Originally posted by poet1b
The problem with the date rape issue, is that in non-date rape cases, it is more about power and control, the rape is violent, and not about sex. Their are date rape cases where the date forces himself on the woman, but then there are the cases of he said she said. That is a very different situation.

That is what we have juries for, it is not for anyone other than the court to decide or discuss who is culpable in such cases. Although, this is where I do have some difficulty in accepting the appropriateness of blanket life sentences for all rapists.

Originally posted by poet1b
While the U.S. has a higher rate of reported rape, odds are good that India probably has a higher rate of incidences of rape, that are never reported.

I agree, and as I pointed out earlier in the thread, the difference in India seems to be that the majority of reported rapes are stranger rapes which are committed in public places, usually during the day, that makes India somewhat unique. However, that does not detract from the point that I was addressing, that given the still high rate of rape in the US, it can hardly be described as safe, it is merely safe if women restrict their own freedom and behave according to defined and safe parametres.

Originally posted by poet1b
As far as unwanted attention goes, there are men who leer at women like leches, and there are women who act like a glance in their direction is a sexual advance. I would say there are problems on both sides of the aisle.

There are always going to be extremes of behaviour, and over sensitivity in some, the point is though to define what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. Any unwanted/uninvited attention that intrudes upon personal space, and most definately, if that extends to physical contact, are reasonable parametres by which to measure intrusive/aggressive behaviour.

Originally posted by poet1b
I would agree a lack of communication is a big problem, and that often is due to so many people having sexual hangups. The sense of self entitlement is what is used to commit these types of heinous crimes.

Communication about sex needs to begin prior to puberty, parents need to get over their hang ups or risk passing them on, if not intensifying them in their children. Easier said than done. Not everyone has good parents, not everyone has parents at all. Beyond sex education we have the issue of children growing up in an atmosphere of sexual abuse...so many social problems which contribute to adult criminal sexual deviancy, I can understand why so many people turn away from addressing the issue...but it isn't going to go away if we don't confront it.