It's Not Us!

IT’S NOT US!

The world of dreams is an utterly convincing (while we are in it) illusion, an imperfect and often surrealistic reflection of our waking reality. We move through invented scenes, interact with invented people, or characters from our waking lives. We do things, sometimes good, sometimes bad, and suffer no consequences for them after we wake up. We accept these distortions when we are in the dream because we exist there under the Law of Dreaming. While we are under this Law, we think, rarely, if ever, of where we really are. And where is that? Of course! We are usually snug in our beds. When we awaken, we say “Oh, it was only a dream!” and we get on with our lives, under the Law of Waking. We think, if we think about it at all, that we now know where we are – in the here and now – but I cannot help but wonder if “where we really are” is yet another place, still unknown to us.

At some point, we must ask who and what we are. A good start is to know the relationship between body, soul, and spirit. Centuries ago, early anatomists dissected cadavers, looking for the “seat of the soul.” They failed. If you read the story of the creation of Adam/Man in Genesis, and really understand it, you will know that man was not given a soul, but BECAME a living soul when the Breath of Life was breathed into a yet-to-live body. Naturally, by the time the dissectors got their hands on the corpse, the soul was non-existent, and the breath/spirit was long gone – they were left with only the dead body. More recently, the theory was concocted that consciousness is a product of chemical reactions in the brain. As far as I know, this theory has failed, as has the one which postulated that consciousness is produced by electrical activity in the brain. What are we left with, then? Are we looking for something ephemeral or even ineffable? There is a school of thought which speculates that the brain is merely a transducer for the Mind, and that implies that our minds may well be in another place, but the nature of that place we have no knowledge of, being as we are, under the Law of Waking. Be aware that I am Philosophizing, not Scientificating here…

I have come to believe that when we move on into the “far country,” or rather, step beyond the veil between this life and the next, we will awaken and say, “Oh, that too, was just a dream!”

If you've ever watched a DVD movie with Special Features, you have probably seen those "Behind the Scenes" features. In them, we get to see the actors off-camera, and out of character. We see, to our surprise if we have been taken in by their on-screen persona, an actor transition from a good or bad person to his/her true persona when the scene is over and the camera is off. We can see the hero and villain laughing together at some joke, or a complete (apparent) personality change. We then realise that, yes, they're actors, and the characters are not them.

In the same way, when we pass beyond the veil, will we (in a sense) too go off-script and off-camera, as our scene in the Great Drama ends? Will we then not revert to our true nature? Paul wrote that we do not know WHAT we will be, just as in a dream, we forget all about our waking life. A person is not punished for what happens in a dream, in a drama, in make-believe, and maybe not in this life, if as I have wondered, this life is little more than a lucid dream. Reality is on the other side of the veil.


Let's picture God as a Potter, as the Bible also does. Ask yourself if the Potter is proud of His clay, or just the finished pot? If the clay, so to speak, is fine in texture, smooth, has no grit, and molds well in His hands, I think He must like/love the clay as He likes/loves the finished pot. Maybe He takes the "B" clay, and makes pots for a more humble use. It may not be so easy to mold, but it is still useful. It is the Potter's job to dig clay out the ground, prepare it for use, mold it, dry it, glaze it, fire it, and then sell the finished pots. I recall a vision I once had of potsherds scattered across a vast plain, and they represented people, and realize that it's not our fault that we're all broken - it just is. When the very plain potsherd that represented me was pointed out, I felt no sense of blame for being there or being broken – it just was. I don't think we are to blame for our condition of brokenness, sinners that we are - only if we revel in it. I think it's all part of God's plan.

I hope I'm not sounding too obvious at this point, with any readers saying to themselves, "Yeah, Laz, blahdey blah. Yada, Yada, Yada."

What I am thinking is this: I have been reading a book about the Exodus, so that has been on my mind. In my mind's eye, I saw the Sinai area laid out before me, and I thought about the Israelites escaping Egypt and reaching the Mountain of God, which was (and is) in Midian, the same place where Moses met the Burning Bush, at the "backside of the desert." God's Plan was for them to go on into Canaan very soon after He formally made them His people, but they rebelled in various ways, and refused to believe the good news of the good land of Canaan. The basic problem was that they were carnal, and since Canaan symbolized the New Earth, Paradise, Heaven, the life to come, and since carnal flesh can not inherit or enter such a place, God amended His Plan. The Israelites had to wait the probationary forty years to enter, until all the carnal generation had died off, and a new spiritual generation came to maturity. When that happened, they marched north, and crossed the Jordan into Canaan. Well, not all, as some stayed behind in Gilead, as it was nice enough. Given the symbolism, this may mean that some will not fully enter the Heavenly realms in the next life. I see the Jordan crossing as the passage from this life to the next, with the Ark (Christ?) making the passage possible. A new life opened to them, and the old life of life in the wilderness, or in Egypt, became a memory or a dream.

What does it mean? Just as God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, He made one generation in the Exodus to symbolize carnality, and the next to symbolize spirituality. It was all a grand illustration of life, death, salvation, redemption, and the life to come. The Israelites participated, but in a sense, they were like brush strokes in a great painting. It seems to me that they were not really at fault, as God used them to make up a grand teaching tool, an instruction for the ages. If the generation leaving Egypt had been confident and faithful and obedient, the teaching tool might not have taught so well. It was not by their will or choice, but by God's Will and Plan, it seems to me, so it was not their fault. The lesson is still posted, but finished. We have the advantage today of learning the easy way, and maybe that is why God "winked" at some things in the times BC, but now in times AD, He expects us to apply our lessons. Remember, people paid with their lives so that we could have these lessons today. We need to do better than they did, but the Will and the Plan is still in place, and we remain details in a grand Plan. We see ourselves as important, but it's a matter of perspective, and from God's end, I think He knows that it is Himself running things, and it's not us. If true, punishment and retribution tend to be excluded, and we can see correction instead of punishment, and mercy instead of retribution. The Potter is pleased with the clay, after all.

THANK YOU!! For the most sensible thread Ever at ATS!!!!

Thank YOU Rex - I was wondering if my essay would ever elicit a comment.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The basic problem was that they were carnal, and since Canaan symbolized the New Earth, Paradise, Heaven, the life to come, and since carnal flesh can not inherit or enter such a place, God amended His Plan. The Israelites had to wait the probationary forty years to enter, until all the carnal generation had died off, and a new spiritual generation came to maturity.

I don't think that the Exodus happened in order to have something to symbolize going to heaven.
I don't know why "carnal flesh" cannot enter the kingdom. The kingdom exists now but you enter it spiritually, while you are flesh.
I don't think that Israel entered Canaan a generation later in order to have more spiritual people, it was, according to the story, to punish the earlier generation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't think...
I don't know why...
I don't think...

Tell me, jmdewey, do you preface with these phrases feigning ignorance, as a prelude to a long drawn-out argument? If so, I will not accommodate you. Be certain that I will not reply to you again in this thread. You either got the gist of what I said, or you did not. Sobeit.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I don't think...
I don't know why...
I don't think...

Tell me, jmdewey, do you preface with these phrases feigning ignorance, as a prelude to a long drawn-out argument? If so, I will not accommodate you. Be certain that I will not reply to you again in this thread. You either got the gist of what I said, or you did not. Sobeit.

It's good to see someone else standing against the ignorance of the religious carnal mind.They cannot be convinced of the Truth however they must be presented the evidence.They argue over the meaning of words and interpretations of the scripture yet cannot come to the knowledge of the Truth of God.They worship the words not the creator...and yes I am very aware I have said this many times because it bears much repetition.My suggestion is to continue doing what you are doing by keep hearing and writing the truth.

reply to post by Rex282


Too many people here have a Spirit of Religion. So many expound on doctrines, creeds, confessions of faith, theology (systematic and otherwise), and ear-tickling, instead of the overriding theme of their Bibles: Love. My debunking of the Hell concept serves to eliminate one of the biggest barriers in Christendom to Love. God is Love, and being so, He would not relegate someone to everlasting torment in Hellfire. He said as much concerning sons and daughters sent through the fire to (that pagan deity who I won't name, as God forbade it), mentioning that such a thing had never entered His own mind.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Yes.
This is the crux of EVERYTHING.Religion(belief) is not KNOWING God.We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith.There is MUCH MUCH more.Religion is the wide path faith is the wide gate that lead to destruction.Man must be cleansed before they can know God.They have to be "knocked off" the throne of the abomination of desolation that proclaims THEMSELVES God.That THEY are the master of their own destiny by their FREE WILL! ..and of course all of this is caused by God for Gods purposes.God is the sovereign..
Then God leads to the narrow path of communion through the gate of knowing God into the green pastures because"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments ARE NOT burdensome."

Of course those commandments are not the "law of Moses" those are for constraining the lawless man.They are the commandments of the Law of the Spirit which is LIFE.There is no "belief" in that only knowing and doing and being in communion(at one) WITH the creator God.THAT is Love..not an emotion.It is state of being that encompasses everything.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

At some point, we must ask who and what we are. A good start is to know the relationship between body, soul, and spirit.

Ugh! Why is that a good start? We have a body, but cannot prove the soul or the spirit. Everything you propose after this statement is based on faith with a complete lack of evidence. If we look around us, the only people that see souls and spirits are the mentally damaged. What everyone else sees is nature - things living and dying (never to rise again). I'm not even saying that souls don't exist, but that we haven't proven it yet. A few people have a near death experience and see weird things because of oxygen depletion in the brain. This is not proof, nor is it worth basing our entire existence on.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The Potter is pleased with the clay, after all.

And the potter looked down upon his creation, of the snot-nosed, pooping, peeing, bleeding, gassy, sweaty, self-centered, greedy, violent, masturbating monkeys, and was pleased? Oh, please.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

The Potter is pleased with the clay, after all.

And the potter looked down upon his creation, of the snot-nosed, pooping, peeing, bleeding, gassy, sweaty, self-centered, greedy, violent, masturbating monkeys, and was pleased? Oh, please.

The original creation was of a much higher form than what we are today.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm not even saying that souls don't exist, but that we haven't proven it yet.

Of course souls exist, the living, breathing you or me is a soul - that was a key part of my argument. The real meaning of the word "soul" has been largely lost through sloppy language use. The spirit, now that is harder to pin down.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm not even saying that souls don't exist, but that we haven't proven it yet.

Of course souls exist, the living, breathing you or me is a soul - that was a key part of my argument. The real meaning of the word "soul" has been largely lost through sloppy language use. The spirit, now that is harder to pin down.

Yes .... babel has done it's job well.As you said it is very basic though..... a soul is a living thing.Living things don't have souls they "are" souls.When a soul dies it is ..dead...void of spirit..LIFE....and yes spirit is impossible to define accurately while in the valley of the shadow of death.

The closest analogy I understand is dimensions.Mickey Mouse is in a 2 dimensional "realm"(no matter how advanced the animation).Mickeys creator is in 3 dimensions which includes the 2 Mickey is in.Mickey can only perceive "his soul life" in 2 dimensions....but he gets his "life" from the 3rd dimension..the creator.

Mickey cannot completely perceive of the 3rd dimension in 2 dimensions.However that does not mean the 3rd doesn't exist but in one sense it doesn't for Mickey because he does not live there.His creator can communicate to Mickey but the translation is very poor because of Mickeys perception.He can only understand in part.So the creator only communicates in Mickeys dimensions"language"..thought bubbles..which he creates ... not Mickey.

Mickeys world is only a 2 dimensional illusion ..shadows...of the 3 dimension reality.Mickey doesn't understand death because...he lives in it.His perception is skewered.When Mickey gets erased the 2 dimensional Mickey is dead.But life can be given to him because it comes from the creator in the higher dimension and no this isn't what is known as reincarnation.That is cartoon world 2 dimensional shadows also.

The bottom line is we can't perceive of the "real" life(spirit) because we are in the valley of the shadow of death.Only the creator can"redraw" us to Life.The pencil is in The creators hand.It is futile to second guess the whys and how..it is only IS...

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The Israelites participated, but in a sense, they were like brush strokes in a great painting. It seems to me that they were not really at fault, as God used them to make up a grand teaching tool, an instruction for the ages. If the generation leaving Egypt had been confident and faithful and obedient, the teaching tool might not have taught so well. It was not by their will or choice, but by God's Will and Plan, it seems to me, so it was not their fault.

God didn't make them sin. He didn't make them burn their children in the fire to Molech, he didn't make them commit adultery or fornicate or engage in drunkenness, or tell lies, or be deceitful, or abuse the law, or rob widows of their homes, or commit murder or worship stone dollies crafted top depict imaginary gods. All these things they did on their own by their individual choices. The moral of the story of the entire OT is that your sins not only destroy you, they destroy your children too, because children learn from their parents.

Originally posted by Rex282

The bottom line is we can't perceive of the "real" life(spirit) because we are in the valley of the shadow of death.Only the creator can"redraw" us to Life.The pencil is in The creators hand.It is futile to second guess the whys and how..it is only IS...

OK, I get it! That is why eye has not seen, nor has it entered into the mind of man what God has in store for His people, those who enter His kingdom. That is also why God made us in His image.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

God didn't make them sin. He didn't make them burn their children in the fire to [pagan god-name deleted due to God's command], he didn't make them commit adultery or fornicate or engage in drunkenness, or tell lies, or be deceitful, or abuse the law, or rob widows of their homes, or commit murder or worship stone dollies crafted top depict imaginary gods. All these things they did on their own by their individual choices. The moral of the story of the entire OT is that your sins not only destroy you, they destroy your children too, because children learn from their parents.

Lonewolf, your answer is very thought-provoking! Over at Tentmaker, my "home" on the www, we debate free will versus the sovereignty of God a lot, and most come down against free will. We can balance "The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way," against God railing against sending their children thru the fire to [pagan god-name deleted due to God's command], saying that such a thing had never entered His mind. You turn the light on for me, and I see that those child sacrifices could not have been by the Will or Plan of God. Is it possible that the Bible teaches both free will and the sovereignty of God at the same time? It reminds me of how pastor James Bruggeman, who taught me UR, admitted that the Bible appears to teach eternal torture, eternal destruction, and universal reconciliation. I am coming to suspect more and more that this is a mystery we see into only dimly...

Yes this is a very, very difficult concept to grasp and that is why God can only reveal it to someone.It is not discoverable nor "believed" by the scriptures.The fact is we are not automatons that are programmed to do Gods will.That is not what NOT having free will means.It means all effects are caused by God and none of them are free from Gods original causation and man has a will that makes billions of choices they just aren't free of causation.

That's where our dimensional perspective does not allow us to perceive why or how it works.Of course the cartoon 2 dimension analogy breaks down here.Mickey does not have a will to do anything.He is a cartoon.He does not have a will life..but again we can draw from his limited perception.

Mickey does things that a cartoon character does.That is his nature.They are ridiculous to us but we see ironic humor in them (sometimes).Mickey hits folks on the head with anvils because he is a cartoon character that doesn't know in the 3D world that would cause horrific death.He does it because it is a part of a larger plot which the creator is making a story of for his own purposes that Mickey is completely unaware of.He is simply a plot device character acting upon his nature.The creator knows no one is dying and that the plot device serves his purpose.

And here again the analogy breaks down.God is not creating a story and we are not mere actors on the stage of life being manipulated by a string .We are creatures BEING made,changed(by salvation) in Gods image.We are far from finished and never will be..simply because we will never be God.The point is everyone is "acting "on their nature.God is not forcing anyone to do anything.God is as your said "molding" the raw clay into a being in his image.The clays nature is a blob of dirt.God is altering it into something useful.If not it would be a lump of useless clay.

So what is with all the baby burners and rapist and terrorist etc....They are acting out their nature.This is where everyone balks and is disgusted and want to make God in THEIR image.They cannot conceive of such atrocities going on under a Gods nose tacitly..yet these are the same folks that desire their "free will".You can't have both.

If they think this is bad it is nothing compared to if man truly had free will!There would be no human race at all.Fortunately the creator is infinitely wise.His will and purposes are so far beyond ours we can't perceive of them.And here is one of the many BIG rubs.He is not asking anyone to trust him.He is just doing what he wants and not seeking any approval.He alone knows the purpose and outcome and that is all that matters.

It is absolute futility to question what it is.The answer will not satisfy.That is mans nature to question everything God does....and it is Gods nature to not answer.Eventually the questioning will cease and as the 5 stages of grief ...finally comes acceptance.I don't believe or trust God is right ..l.I know he is.I have no reason to question what he does.The answer will not matter one bit to change it to what "I" want.I no longer want what I want I only accept what Gods wants/wills.It is futility to do otherwise.

Again the point is.....God is sovereign... everything is 100% in his control and everything is going perfectly according to plan.That is impossible to believe..only know.