Circularity of Confidence

reply to post by Taupin Desciple

Those people? Just how much in the minority are they, that they have to be referred to as "those people"? And you used the word "phenomena". You just don't get how some people don't let society overly effect them do you?

"Those" is just a pronoun. We use it all the time to describe a specific group of things. In this case, I wanted to highlight a particular group of people that falls within the category I defined as lacking external sources of confidence.

There is nothing wrong in pointing this out. Height is a thing society likes. Being apart of society ineluctably means that height can give you a sense of favor over others. Same with weight, attractiveness, intelligence, skill.

Additionally, these sort of external factors are all apart of everyone's subconscious toolkit.

Amazing. You're over thinking all of this, you really are. You also might want to start by not stating that your opinions are facts.

You might want to start reading into cognitive science and evolutionary psychology, a large part of my argument rests on research conducted in these areas.

Also, if you're gonna seriously mount a counter-argument you should probably point out where I want wrong in my reasoning instead of saying "I'm over-thinking" it.

Below, you acknowledged that putting yourself in certain social situations where you know you will feel inferior i.e unconfident about yourself, is intrinsically unwise. You acknowledge this because you agree that external factors i.e. attractive face, height, weight, and fitness play into a persons sense of confidence. And why not ponder the implications of that thought, just for the sake of "thinking deeply"? If you're not particularly good looking, etc, and avoid that environment where you know you might feel "out of your comfort zone", you are in effect acknowledging the limits of your confidence.

Likewise, someone who is tall and fit but uneducated would find himself feeling unconfident and inferior in a more intellectual setting. This person is 'limited' as well. Frankly, I would rather be limited physically than intellectually, but that's me.

Finally, using the word "phenomena" can be applied to pretty much anything. Everything that happens is phenomenological. This particular phenomena, confidence that feeds off a sense of confidence, is unique because it relies on something that is essentially its own substance. Having an "external enforcer" i.e. the things named, would seem to expand your sphere of confidence into most areas of human society. Instead of being limited to the computer room and bar, you would be able to feel a sense of confidence in almost any environment.

This may not be something you want to acknowledge, perhaps for personal reasons, but as a scientific fact it seems indisputable that having physical advantages over other people would pump up your sense of self.

reply to post by Bluesma

Perhaps I misunderstood, but it seems that is all you are refering to?

Well, I also said intelligence and skill, which are abstract in their own ways.

But I agree, confidence goes beyond appearances.

All the time I sit and analyze older people who've become quite frankly wrinkly and decrepit in old age. But still, these people carry themselves with a sense of dignity. I think to myself: look at how much confidence they have in themselves. One part reasons, they're confident out of habit; having been young once, they've trained their brains to think and feel this way through out life. While another part thinks: this is the way it should be. Old age shows us how superficial and transitory physical appearance is. Our primer is between puberty and late thirties to late 40s. Few people look in their "prime" i.e. best, beyond that age. After that, life is down hill, physically speaking. But then after, life is lived more spiritually: more intellectually. Some of our greatest thinkers are people who've passed this "physical prime" point in their lives.

It depends upon what those around you value

I don't think I "may" be right about it. It's basic sociology. As for "it depends on what those around you value" that would be one possible etiological explanation for the "confident because I'm confident" circularity that this thread is about. But even then, these people feel the limits of their confidence. The beach scenario I described in an earlier post shows that society still exerts it's power over us even if we've had the privilege of a positive upbringing.

We can't completely escape the powers of sociology, insomuch as sociology derives so much of it's explanations from evolutionary biology.

I've noticed that the deepest values you were conditioned with first in life never really leave you- they are the bedrock you build yourself on

I agree. Our brains swallow up so much information at around 2-6 years old that we never completely outgrow the temperament that our environment helped instill in us.

If you grew up in an environment that taught individual worth is based on intelligence, than no amount of praise for your looks as an adult will give you a sense of worth.

Although intelligence is foremost, it's hyperbolic to say that a handsome or beautiful woman who is also intelligent wouldn't want to be handsome or beautiful. Just simply imagine a fairy god mother coming to you and giving you the option: would you like to become ugly? If they truly don't care, it wouldn't matter. Yes, or No. But I think most good looking people would be opposed to having themselves transform into an ugly person.

To state it bluntly, It's a good thing being good looking. But it's certainly not important enough to derive your whole sense of self from.

reply to post by Astrocyte



Confidence would seem circular if you neglected all the other things that objectively bring value to a human being other than physical traits.

For example:
1. Intelligence
2. Sense of humor
3. Curiosity
4. Ability to see potential instead of the obstacles
5. Resourcefulness
6. Adaptability

-rrr

reply to post by Astrocyte


You are obsessed with yourself. You walk around with an image of yourself in mind and compare that image with what you see. You assume that others do the same.
Give up this habit. It is you who is putting you down. You also judge that some people are ugly and some attractive - so you assume you too are being judged.
Mathew 7.2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The glory of God is right in front of your eyes - see what there is to see and stop imagining yourself - do not make an idol of me and you will not put any 'other' idol above or below you.. If you make an idol of yourself in mind and carry it around it will make you miserable because you will be constantly comparing and judging yourself.

When at the beach why do you see 'you' (only appearing in mind) when there is such beauty to behold? Can you not just see and hear what there is to see and hear? The light is obscured by the judgment you have of yourself, the ideas you have of you is what holds one back from fully living. Confidence is freedom from all judgment.

I think confidence often comes from within, based on what we place importance on. A small change in perspective can really make a situation go from almost frightening to upbuilding, a learning experience. In my case I used to be one of those guys who avoided talking to the 10's out there because of the fear of rejection. Once I realized what did I really have to lose, and decided to make it more of a game/learning experience then all fear melted away. I no longer put importance on her reception but rather on the actual interaction, my perspective changed and my confidence increased. "You will never hit a homerun unless you take a swing." - Unknown

reply to post by Astrocyte


It seems to me, this person you describe is only just........happy.
I cannot offhand count 2 experiences in my life just now, when I was truly happy,
It's been a hell...of a life,
but if I was feeling very happy just now, I'm certain I would be feeling alot of confidence
and self esteem too.

reply to post by Astrocyte


The appearance of confidence which you see in others may not always be what it seems.

For example, I am told fairly often that others regard me as being self-confident, and yet I have rarely regarded myself as person with confidence, the only exceptions being when I have been in love or in a spiritually heightened state.

What I have done is try to recognise the reality of who I am and avoid placing unrealistic expectations on myself. In this way, I appear to others as being equal to the task at hand, not because I am actually confident in my abilities or appearance, but because I accept my limitations (well, most of the time).

I find it interesting that the OPs examples of reasons for being confident are based on what they think is visually appealing.

Why can't a person know how great they are? Regardless of how they look hair color of height wise, why can't that greatness equate to something that others find appealing? And if we must focus on outward appearances, why does the stereotype good looks have to be what everyone thinks looks good?

Not hacking on the OP but this really bothers me. It bothers me more when it's hidden than when someone gives it a chance to air.

I have noticed that people tend to carry pre conceived notions about what I would like, when it seems they have no idea... but they often seem to be certain they have the ability to decide these things for me. Just a personal observation.

I can tell you right now... the stereotypical image of a man like you describe... or any man that probably most woman would find attractive or that you would see on a magazine.... I guarantee you that I would not be sexually attracted to that person. This has only intensified over the years. It has only come to cover a broader range of guys.

I look at them and look at their skin and think how it would feel... warm and fleshy... and I think about their man boobs and I'm like "what is this... I already have a pillow... this is not supposed to be there...I'm in the bosom of a man HELPPP"... and then I look at there sculpted faces and I wonder "Is there really anybody in there... or this just a mannequin"

I'm not saying they're ugly... They might even be nice, especially if it is indeed a confident man because then he wouldn't have reasons to be playing all those silly insecurity games... and I might even like talking to a man like that but to be in BED with a man like that??? I would run away. Not because it's scary but because it would just be totally weird and wrong. I can't even describe how weird it is. I haven't dated models but I've been with some attractive guys.

I have a totally different perspective of what I find attractive than what seems to be typical, but I really don't think I'm different. I think there are a lot of people who have different perspectives on what is attractive so you never really know. You can't really judge what kind of confidence you think a person should have simply because they are not your type. If they are not your type, you probably shouldn't focus on it at all and concentrate on what YOU like... because not everyone thinks the same and it would really suck if we all looked and acted the same.

Why try to ruin the confidence of others just because you aren't feeling their vibe?

Originally posted by Astrocyte

Although intelligence is foremost, it's hyperbolic to say that a handsome or beautiful woman who is also intelligent wouldn't want to be handsome or beautiful. Just simply imagine a fairy god mother coming to you and giving you the option: would you like to become ugly? If they truly don't care, it wouldn't matter. Yes, or No. But I think most good looking people would be opposed to having themselves transform into an ugly person.

To state it bluntly, It's a good thing being good looking. But it's certainly not important enough to derive your whole sense of self from.

Okay, as a person who is one of those getting old and wrinkly, and gaining in the self confidence I exude,
as I lose the looks that once were exceptional in most others' judgements....

I did NOT like being good looking in the eyes of others! I have found it a blessing to be losing that. At last, people stop staring at my face and answering me with "Gee, yer pretty."

As a child, adolescent, young adult- "Look what I just made (wrote, drew, built, did...)"
Other- "You are so pretty."

I had a mother who was jealous, hurt and cruel as she judged me good looking. In order to soothe her, I had to play upon the idea that I am stupid. I had to do that with most female friends in fact.
The dumb blond stereotype has some real reason for being- not that pretty blondes are dumb, but that they learn to pretend they are.

With a handicapped sister who felt overwhelmed and inferior next to me, I needed to give her some space to shine and grow too- that meant hiding intelligence and looks.

Yes, with looks, if you are up for a job opportunity, against someone of equal skill and experience, but less attractive, you are more likely to get the job. But on the other hand, if you got it because your skills and experience were superior, no one will recognize that- the assumption will always be that you got it because of your face.
Everything you succeed in, in fact, will be suspected as just having happened because of your looks.

Well, now? People listen when I speak! They are not staring dreamily at my face!

Now? They acknowledge that what I say, what I know, has merit and is worth consideration!

The real me that has been eclipsed because of appearence can finally be acknowledged by the exterior world and others! (it also helps that I am in a country that does not worship youth, like the states. )
Men don't harrass me anymore, women don't feel threatened. I can just relax and be myself.

I still get angry when people make comments about me being pretty. I recently had a big debate with my husband and his mom about that. There are little sayings others like to get (like being called a "Miss" in french- as in a beauty pagent winner) that make me blow a fuse when they are used towards me. It seems few people understand how a person can be bothered by having their worth as a human determined by their appearence.

I will agree that the reflection of others around you influences your own self confidence, no doubt.
But insist that if what they reflect back is not what YOU value personally, than that will not give you confidence.

-But about what you are calling a "circularity of confidence", I simply call that "narcissism".
Their lack of recognition of others' blocks them from being influenced by the judgements of others about their person. Like being in a bubble.
I have a half brother who is a pathological narcissist, and it is a truly strange phenomenon.

Originally posted by Bluesma
-But about what you are calling a "circularity of confidence", I simply call that "narcissism".
Their lack of recognition of others' blocks them from being influenced by the judgements of others about their person. Like being in a bubble.
I have a half brother who is a pathological narcissist, and it is a truly strange phenomenon.

Perhaps being in a confidence bubble is indeed strange, but at least he didn't feel the need to pretend to be dumb because he knew he was too pretty.

No, seriously... a very well analyzed post.

Hilarious, but very enlightening.

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by Bluesma
-But about what you are calling a "circularity of confidence", I simply call that "narcissism".
Their lack of recognition of others' blocks them from being influenced by the judgements of others about their person. Like being in a bubble.
I have a half brother who is a pathological narcissist, and it is a truly strange phenomenon.

Perhaps being in a confidence bubble is indeed strange, but at least he didn't feel the need to pretend to be dumb because he knew he was too pretty.

No, seriously... a very well analyzed post.

Hilarious, but very enlightening.

Well, I don't know what you find so hilarious- my experience is a fairly common one, his is more rare, and isn't very funny for those near him who have to watch him go in and out of rehabs and prisons, living on the streets, unhealthy...


I guess I call it "strange" because impractical. If a way of thinking or behaving has a negative effect upon your ability to survive. My tactic was uncomfortable, but effective for survival and interaction with others,
his is destructive both to self and others. Well... at least he doesn't notice that.

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Originally posted by Bluesma
-But about what you are calling a "circularity of confidence", I simply call that "narcissism".
Their lack of recognition of others' blocks them from being influenced by the judgements of others about their person. Like being in a bubble.
I have a half brother who is a pathological narcissist, and it is a truly strange phenomenon.

Perhaps being in a confidence bubble is indeed strange, but at least he didn't feel the need to pretend to be dumb because he knew he was too pretty.

No, seriously... a very well analyzed post.

Hilarious, but very enlightening.

Well, I don't know what you find so hilarious- my experience is a fairly common one, his is more rare, and isn't very funny for those near him who have to watch him go in and out of rehabs and prisons, living on the streets, unhealthy...


I guess I call it "strange" because impractical. If a way of thinking or behaving has a negative effect upon your ability to survive. My tactic was uncomfortable, but effective for survival and interaction with others,
his is destructive both to self and others. Well... at least he doesn't notice that.

edit on 21-7-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Well from what you are saying now it seems his issue is much more serious than being in a confidence bubble.

I know someone who is negatively effected by others... for a very long time and no one should have to suffer the superficial opinions of others. If a person blocks the opinions of others out so that they do not pollute their sanity, then I see nothing wrong with that. It all depends on individual circumstance and that comment is not directed to you or your brother.

As for you, I agree it is probably very common that people will react to external opinions and sometimes at a detriment to themselves, which is not healthy either... but yes, it's probably typical and I wasn't laughing at your upbringing but just at how your post was worded. I don't think you intended it with a grave tone but at certain points a playful reflection so surely you can't blame someone for laughing.

I believe in self examination and giving yourself an area in which others cannot effect you to an extent because egotism based on what society thinks is acceptable is a big problem in our world. People loose the ability to be who they are.

I feel the need to stick up for that reaction of self preservation... and what I found funny... you have to admit, is that you made a pretty good sized post talking about how pretty you were and did put somewhat of a comical spin on it.

Then you mention the unhealthy confidence of your brother and I thought some objectiveness could inspire you to some further reflection and elaboration of the point you were wanting to make about him... because all we really have at this point is this negative thing you speak of, minus any understanding of what it entails.
How is being in a bubble and not reacting to certain things from others landing him in prison? It sounds to me that he is indeed reacting to something external... so now I'm curious as to how this works exactly... in your opinion.

A lot of confident people are actually very insecure, try to ignore the opinions of others but are actually constantly reacting to things because of an unhealthy ego based on desperately seeking reasons to be confident, not true confidence. I'm not trying to pretend to know the guy... just throwing that out there as a possibility because the people close to someone who has a personality issue are generally the ones who effect them the most and to try looking at it from different perspectives could be helpful... if you find it strange and can't understand why he does it.

I'd like to hear your analysis of this.

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

Well from what you are saying now it seems his issue is much more serious than being in a confidence bubble.

Well, I did say from the start "pathological narcissist"- key word pathological, which is beyond a simple description of personal traits within limits that allow for a normal life. He has other pathologies as well though.

Notions of grandeur that cannot be shaken, no matter who or how many would point out there is just no substance or reasoning behind it. He is sure he is one of the most amazing individuals ever to walk this earth, and cannot perceive anything about his person or acts that could be criticized. He is delusional. The problem is that ethics and morals are impossible for him to grasp. If it is he who desires to do something it must be good then- no matter if it hurts others, no matter if a whole society judges it wrong and puts him in jail.

The bubble is a huge problem, because it blocks all acknowledgement of others, their rights, their value... everything outside of it are objects for his enjoyment.

I feel the need to stick up for that reaction of self preservation... and what I found funny... you have to admit, is that you made a pretty good sized post talking about how pretty you were and did put somewhat of a comical spin on it.

I didn't mean to put a comical spin on it. But I guess people will always recieve it as funny because so many have the idea that all women WANT to be seen this way, so it can only be humor to suggest otherwise.
For me it was a source of much pain, and much of that is precisely because it cannot be spoken of or understood by others.

How is being in a bubble and not reacting to certain things from others landing him in prison? It sounds to me that he is indeed reacting to something external... so now I'm curious as to how this works exactly... in your opinion.

He sees no reason not aggress strangers if it serves his purpose, to take their possessions or money, to use whatever drugs or other recreational tools he desires (meth and oxycotin addict).... he doesn't feel the need to keep a job, if it doesn't please him each day, nor even to tell the truth to anyone if he doesn't feel like it, nor keep a roof over his head- he assumes that like Jesus, doors will open for him wherever he goes because his awesomeness shines wherever he goes.

So he lands in jail for all kinds of things, and if he finds a friend or girlfriend with low self esteem for a while, they eventually leave when drained too far. No matter how many loved ones, judges, lawyers, shrinks counselors might try to point out that what he has done is not good , for others nor himself, it doesn't get in. There is no hope that he will not do it again. It is all good because it came from him.

He was the closest example I could think of "circularity of confidence" as the OP described.

Originally posted by NotAnAspie

A lot of confident people are actually very insecure, try to ignore the opinions of others but are actually constantly reacting to things because of an unhealthy ego based on desperately seeking reasons to be confident, not true confidence. I'm not trying to pretend to know the guy... just throwing that out there as a possibility because the people close to someone who has a personality issue are generally the ones who effect them the most and to try looking at it from different perspectives could be helpful... if you find it strange and can't understand why he does it.

I'd like to hear your analysis of this.

I didn't get to answering this.

It is hard for me to delve too far into the psychology there, because this is a half brother, born when I was already 15, to my mother and her second husband. He grew up in a different household, and with methods completely opposite those I did. My mother carried a lot of guilt about the way she had abandoned her first brood of children at a young age, so was over-compensating somewhat with this one. He was spoiled in simple terms. He was never punished, all negative enforcement was avoided, and only constant positive reinforcement applied, with the theory that telling a child they are a genius and wonderful would, in fact, make them become so.

Besides that, he was conceived purposely, in order to force his father to marry my mother. They'd been dating for nine years and he would not commit, nor accept my mothers first kids (us) to come live with them. So in a sense his birth was treated pretty close to that of a savior by mother, and probably by me and my siblings too.

Our being let into the house and having a normal family was all due to his presence- it would not have happened otherwise.

So... he was treated as if he was a Savior and exceptional, just in existing- not linked to anything he did or didn't do, and that formed his self concept.

I suppose it is possible that at this point, a part of his conscience is aware that all earthly facts involved would point to a different possibility... but SO different, the fall is too hard to face! From the Second coming of Christ to a addict and criminal (who smells bad and nobody can stand to be around) is such a steep fall.. he may have so much invested in that bubble now, he is purposely nurturing it to protect himself.