Infrastructure Reform AZP

reply to post by Serdgiam


Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting we have a dictator like Hitler. And I know, just saying the name alone and naming something positive he did is almost sacrilege to most people.

However, I admire the fact that he snubbed the banks and made his country great in a very short span of time. I believe he genuinely cared about his country and the well being of his people even though he ultimately led them down the path to defeat in WWII. I don't think America has had a leader that has really cared for the common man since Kennedy.

I wish I could say that I believe the world could be great using the systems already in place, but I really don't. I believe something very drastic and new must be installed instead of the same societal constructs and greediness that is so pervasive in this day and age.

reply to post by charles1952


After some thought, I think its the perfect opportunity to work within the system.

For whatever reason, they made the decision. However, as long as these threads are still going, the idea can still grow.

Many will be turned off to the idea for various reasons, but as long as it gets started somewhere and with someone, then we can still change the world by changing our approach. I think most will just continue to sit on their hands until the road has been paved for them. Thats ok, someone has to fill those pot holes, and if no one else will then I think it takes some introspection to find our will, and then motivation to find our action.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

I don't think America has had a leader that has really cared for the common man since Kennedy.

Even then, I am not so sure. Ever since McKinley I think that our nations leadership took on a different role. Basically, a face for corporations and large fiscal entities.

That said, I actually think they do care about the common man, but we are viewed as a commodity. Even then though, I propose that it is not being looked at with the highest profitability in mind. This short-sightedness might be a result of having an insular group that drives/hinders all of the progress of the whole of humanity.

Their minds and attitude will not change, however, I think it could be very convincing to appeal to the greed. And that is the poetic part of all of this; In enabling a society, everyone profits. Those who profit from the current system may not see the disparity in their bank account compared to the common person, but their opportunity to live their life at a higher level themselves would be increased exponentially.

I wish I could say that I believe the world could be great using the systems already in place, but I really don't. I believe something very drastic and new must be installed instead of the same societal constructs and greediness that is so pervasive in this day and age.

See, thats the issue is that the societal constructs (cultural story) are what drive us. We can change that and everything else will follow suit. But, I think we need a direction to actually go, and that is why I started these threads.

Do you think it is more of an issue of the actual constructs, or how we approach and use them? Do you feel one could affect the other, if we change it in ourselves and start to live out a different life using the tools available in a different way?

Ok so we have 2 issues that keep coming up. We have corruption in politics and corruption in economics/finance. For the most part at least in a democracy built on capitalism this is another instance of using 2 forces opposing each other that are propping up the system kind of like the 2 party situation in the US. We have a banking system using usury for the most part to inflate their own worth to then buy political influence which then goes to further increasing the power of the financial institutions.

We either have to start with a new system of economics (not really in favor of this as most other systems seem to lack incentive for modern man) or we have to find a way to strengthen the current system and modify it to better function in the peoples favor.

With the religious reference I made earlier I think it can be used as an analogy for the reverence that those in positions of public service should have towards their responsibilities. We essentially would have to create the type of politicians we need either by creating a voluntary auxiliary class tasked with overseeing everything or we have to create a new system of checks and balances that makes corruption impossible.

The auxiliary would be similar to the way a monastic or military system of discipline works. I think private property would be nearly abolished for this class while in their service. They have all of their needs met without them being able to profit from their positions. This class would be elevated in society for their service as it would be seen as a sacrifice. Right now politics is nothing more than a way to sell influence. The auxiliary would be under tight financial scrutiny at all times.

The view of checks and balances could borrow from this as well. If you institute single term limits and complete transparency for politicians financial records. Also how about a non nepotism clause? If you are related to a politician current or past then no dice you have to pass . This keeps power from becoming institutionalized by families. We have a large enough population that the idea that all of the people who have been running things for years are related even if distantly is insane. Another thing would be that if you are a CEO or own a huge company you have to step down for the term of your office. You can profit in no way and if your company is involved in any public funded transactions this will be open to public scrutiny just like personal finances of the politicians. Liberty should remain personal but not when you volunteer for these positions.

The economic problems could really be solved in some ways by eliminating usury and reevaluating the way work and value are determined. Right now the people who produce the least value to society are paid the most. Lawyers, Bankers, Celebrities etc. I am not sure how to change this though unless we agreed that certain positions in the economy are not to be viewed in a profit incentive light but perhaps in one of honor or prestige? Intellectual rights need to be reevaluated as well and should be limited to something like 5 years you can hold a patent or similar. Again this prevents monopolies and encourages innovation. As it is now people want a certain product they get it from company X but company X has created or addressed a need that is now vital, this keeps us supporting them even when they perform anti-patriotic moves like off shoring their production or buying up any competition.

This is a bit off from infrastructure but I kept coming back to these issues and realized a new system should be organic but have a rigid framework. America is great because of the framework of liberty that was used and our culture developed rather organically from that as opposed to being created by any one institution like religion or some such but too much liberty was allotted to the public servants which the financial institutions used to insert themselves into the government system.

Sorry for the long post and it may be a bit scattered as I am running low on energy and am very tired. Mull some of this over a bit it's nothing new some of this stuff people like Plato have addressed but perhaps we can start from there.

Yes I know that commas are my enemy.

reply to post by Serdgiam

See, thats the issue is that the societal constructs (cultural story) are what drive us. We can change that and everything else will follow suit. But, I think we need a direction to actually go, and that is why I started these threads.

Do you think it is more of an issue of the actual constructs, or how we approach and use them? Do you feel one could affect the other, if we change it in ourselves and start to live out a different life using the tools available in a different way?

These are not simple questions you ask, and I feel like to give them a simple answer would trivialize them.

I believe that if you take an honest, ethical human being and put him in some kind of political office that he would be corrupted within a year.

That's how the system in place is, you have to be a "snake in the grass" to play ball these days. Honest hard working people have no place in it. It's perfect for you if you are narcissistic or a sociopath though.

I guess it is possible to achieve the things you mention with the systems already in place. It will never work without honest people at the top though. And that's something that I don't think we will see here in America anytime soon. The financial and political entities in Washington hardly bother to make up decent lies anymore, they do as they please with no repurcussions.

I think that until moral human beings are at the top, working for the greater good of all, there really can be no improvements to anything and the system is going to keep perpetuating itself until it finally implodes.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


Before I reply in depth (which you know I will ), do you feel that humans are corrupted by the political system or that humans are generally corrupt, and so any system built by them will be the same?

I lean more towards the latter, as I have seen massive corruption personally in everything from a truly small business to humane societies.

What is the source of the corruption?

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

These are not simple questions you ask, and I feel like to give them a simple answer would trivialize them.

They arent simple answers, I agree. However, I think they are questions that we all need to ask ourselves in some way or another.

I guess it is possible to achieve the things you mention with the systems already in place. It will never work without honest people at the top though. And that's something that I don't think we will see here in America anytime soon. The financial and political entities in Washington hardly bother to make up decent lies anymore, they do as they please with no repurcussions.

I think that until moral human beings are at the top, working for the greater good of all, there really can be no improvements to anything and the system is going to keep perpetuating itself until it finally implodes.

So, Ill ask you roughly the same question as Santa; Do you feel the corruption at the top is representative of society as a whole? What is the source of the corruption? We just need to figure that out if we are to stem the flow!

To understand my perspective a bit better, know that I would answer this question with a "yes!" So, in waiting for those at the top to change without actually changing where those people come from (general corrupted society), then nothing will ever change. When those in power are replaced, they will be replaced by people who are just as corrupt since they all come from the same place.

I think its interesting that both of you are coming up with this. I think its incredibly important too, because how can we expect government-supported and maintained infrastructure to be properly acted upon if those people who make the decisions are corrupt? That would bring us to one of my main points, and that is that while they think they are doing the best thing to satisfy the greedy and corrupt heart, they are completely mistaken. While their individual bank account may grow, it is at personal and societal cost. Their public perception becomes tarnished, but more importantly, they directly contribute to themselves having a much, much lower quality of life than they could have. I am not sure I am making this point very well, so I would definitely appreciate help on how you are seeing it!

Where else could we have a conversation with "some guy" named "Chuck," Santa, and a Squid Hillbilly?

Oh, ATS.

Originally posted by Serdgiam
reply to post by NihilistSanta

 

Before I reply in depth (which you know I will

), do you feel that humans are corrupted by the political system or that humans are generally corrupt, and so any system built by them will be the same?

I lean more towards the latter, as I have seen massive corruption personally in everything from a truly small business to humane societies.

What is the source of the corruption?

edit on 13-7-2013 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

I am in the latter camp as well. I think communist/socialist ideas stem from an assumption based on the former. A utopia would require having a system/institutions in place before the citizens which would be practically impossible. The elite work from this basis which is why I believe massive depopulation is on their agenda.

reply to post by Serdgiam

So, Ill ask you roughly the same question as Santa; Do you feel the corruption at the top is representative of society as a whole? What is the source of the corruption? We just need to figure that out if we are to stem the flow!

To understand my perspective a bit better, know that I would answer this question with a "yes!" So, in waiting for those at the top to change without actually changing where those people come from (general corrupted society), then nothing will ever change. When those in power are replaced, they will be replaced by people who are just as corrupt since they all come from the same place.

I wonder if people really stop and consider what you just said here.

The Bereaucrats and Politicians that we elect don't get off a spaceship from some distant galaxy. They come from American homes, schools, churches, universities, etc. etc. So when folks say things like "Everyone in Washington is so corrupt, they need to go!" I wonder if they consider that whoever replaces them will do pretty much the same thing. Thats why you always see the Senate, the House and the executive branch go from Democrat majority to Republican majority, back and forth all the time but nothing ever really changes or gets done. All just more of the same.

You know the hundred dollar toilet seat you were talking about earlier? I was in the US Army as a tanker for 8 years. I got out in 2005 and I can tell you, the fraud, waste and abuse is rampant. They will spend money on weapon systems and projects that won't even work in theory. And I know for a fact none of it really costs that much. I'm sure quite a bit of it lines the pockets of Raytheon, General Dynamics, KBR, Halliburton and the like. So I'm sure any domestic projects are the same way. I've never worked on a road crew personally, but I'm sure they get contracted out just like government military contractors and aren't in a hurry to finish because the longer it takes the longer they get paid. That's why you'll see eight guys watching one do all the work when you pass by them.

As long as money and personal gain are involved with the system, its not going to work. So what do we replace it with?

I'm not sure. I do think though that maybe changing what money is might be a better start than trying to change people. Thats why I mentioned Hitler cutting off the banks and making money tied to direct output/work in his countries economy. Today that would'nt happen because elections in the U.S. are Billions of dollars and the only people that can finance candidates campaigns are the big wealthy corporations and special interest groups.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


Depopulation may be on their agenda, or not. I am not personally privy to their plans, so I just work on my own that may be better solutions for even them.

Ok, so we are both on the same page (at least roughly) that it is the society itself that creates the issues we have. In that, I think that fixing it by approaching problems in the exact same way as always will just lead to all of the same issues just with different faces.

That is exactly what I have been thinking about for many years. How do we actually fix this? Is it truly "the heart of man" and unavoidable as many religious suggest?

I dont think it is. I think that we have had a cultural story that grew naturally according to cultural needs. But, much like science, I think that these things need to grow in accordance with current needs. So, the first step was to define the part of our cultural story that so many of these issue may arise from. That is where the "greed over need" came in.

Then, we need to address the systems that operate almost exclusively under this quality. Not only that (since that applies to all systems in society), but the ones that have an active part to play in how people build their perception of the world. This is what created the education thread. I could go down the line in the inspiration for each individual topic, but in the end, they were what I felt are the "core issues" that are a good place to start.

But all of it starts at "home," in the power that we all have as individuals. It has been said that the true power lies within the power of the people together, but this tends to come with the psychological caveat that we are powerless as individuals. I do not agree. I think that we are strong individually, and stronger when working together.

So, I present ideas that people can get involved with, individually, so that we can come together and put our ideas into action. The next step is the tools to be enable individuals to contribute to an even greater degree, which is the next step. I dont think many have any interest whatsoever until everything has been done for them and they can just step into a pre-made benefit with no effort on their part. From what I see, most would rather just complain than actually come up with working and feasible ideas. I cant deny that it is extremely frustrating. Especially since I have so many serious health issues, and doing as much work as I am (with breaks every 10-20 minutes) has exhausted me. I need help. And while not many have responded to these threads (despite being an open forum for ALL ideas), several have! You have no idea how much this encourages me. Most of the time, the interactions are not nearly as productive. They will mostly result in insults, miscommunication, shadenfruede, etc.

So, thank you for participating actively. All of us participate, but so few are willing to acknowledge it. Fewer still make the decision to consciously approach it. And when our base story is "greed over need," that results in what we see in the world today.

Sorry for the little mini rant. But, I think it might help to understand how I have approached all of these things. I see that the issue is not in the government, or even extremist groups, but that it is in our cultural story which fosters us to use all of our tools for greed over need. What do you think is the best way to actually approach this, and in time, fix it?

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

I wonder if people really stop and consider what you just said here.

Most wont, and I think both of us know that. However, it seems you did. For me, I see that it all has to start somewhere. It will take a long time.. perhaps even generations to see change on a world wide scale. But it has to start somewhere.

The Bereaucrats and Politicians that we elect don't get off a spaceship from some distant galaxy. They come from American homes, schools, churches, universities, etc. etc. So when folks say things like "Everyone in Washington is so corrupt, they need to go!" I wonder if they consider that whoever replaces them will do pretty much the same thing. Thats why you always see the Senate, the House and the executive branch go from Democrat majority to Republican majority, back and forth all the time but nothing ever really changes or gets done. All just more of the same.

I think this is the profound thing behind all of this. This isnt random! These people are *direct* results of the cultural story that we all take part in and contribute towards. Without changing the "garden" that these things grow, we will continue to get exactly the same results. There is no way around it, imo.

You know the hundred dollar toilet seat you were talking about earlier? I was in the US Army as a tanker for 8 years. I got out in 2005 and I can tell you, the fraud, waste and abuse is rampant. They will spend money on weapon systems and projects that won't even work in theory. And I know for a fact none of it really costs that much. I'm sure quite a bit of it lines the pockets of Raytheon, General Dynamics, KBR, Halliburton and the like. So I'm sure any domestic projects are the same way. I've never worked on a road crew personally, but I'm sure they get contracted out just like government military contractors and aren't in a hurry to finish because the longer it takes the longer they get paid. That's why you'll see eight guys watching one do all the work when you pass by them.

I have not been able to find hard numbers (and I didnt try all that hard, tbh), but the total cost of assembly for a NASA space toilet seat seems to sit right around $10,000.00us. Ten thousand dollars!!. You will have a difficult time convincing me that it actually costs that much. I think it is more likely, by a significant margin, that that cost is arbitrary and fake to maintain budget, which likely goes directly into corporate profit.

As long as money and personal gain are involved with the system, its not going to work. So what do we replace it with?

I am not sure that the money and personal gain are the core issue. After much thought, I think it is like so many other things that it is in the way we see them that affects it. Meaning that short-sighted personal gain seems to be viewed as the most profitable way to carry something out. However, even with money and personal gain in the equation, they are not satisfying that greed to the greatest extent possible. I actually dont think it needs to be replaced, just used differently! Our personal gain would greatly exceed what it is now if we looked at trying to create a society where enabling individuals, rather than controlling them, is a core principle. As it stands though, it is viewed to be market domination, control of ideas and actions, and profit through exploitation that yields the greatest reward. My argument is that there is a better way, and that numbers in a bank account are NOT the only way to quantify how "rich" one truly is. The quality of life is more pertinent, and by encouraging this to increase, all of us benefit even with all of the systems of control in place. Am I communicating this clearly? What do you think?

I'm not sure. I do think though that maybe changing what money is might be a better start than trying to change people. Thats why I mentioned Hitler cutting off the banks and making money tied to direct output/work in his countries economy. Today that would'nt happen because elections in the U.S. are Billions of dollars and the only people that can finance candidates campaigns are the big wealthy corporations and special interest groups

I refer to most governments as "Corporatocracies." Its probably some official word that I spelled wrong, but you probably still get the idea. I also feel that fiat money directly leads to a slow, but inevitable, collapse of an economy.

All that said, I think the issue is how we use it, and not what we use. Do you think its possible to create a new way of life using the current tools at our disposal, just used to enable rather than control?