The Flaw In Your Logic Regarding Homosexuality

reply to post by slowisfast


Listen, old man.

You might be fearful and confused by accepting people who, in your golden years, you didn't have to accept.. But gays are getting their right slowly but surely. And they deserve them. Just as every other minority group from women to hispanics to blacks deserved them. I'm sure you'll recognize the lyrics of that contemptuous and rebellious youth "Bob Dylan" when he sang:

"
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
Don't criticize
What you can't understand

Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is Rapidly agin'

Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend a hand
For your times they are a-changin'
"

Originally posted by HairlessApe
reply to post by slowisfast

 

Listen, old man.

You might be fearful and confused by accepting people who, in your golden years, you didn't have to accept.. But gays are getting their right slowly but surely. And they deserve them. Just as every other minority group from women to hispanics to blacks deserved them. I'm sure you'll recognize the lyrics of that contemptuous and rebellious youth "Bob Dylan" when he sang:

"
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
Don't criticize
What you can't understand

Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is Rapidly agin'

Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend a hand
For your times they are a-changin'
"

edit on 1-7-2013 by HairlessApe because: (no reason given)

Thanks dude.

I certainly hope gays get their rights! They deserve them! I look forward to a day where all this is behind us and folks have the liberty to live how they see fit without bringing harm or imposition to others. Can't wait for it, we're in agreement. Never once did you ask me my opinions on gay rights, or the like. You merely made assumptions about me.

I've only been making one point this entire thread. I've even stated why I believe it to be so. You've stated otherwise, sorry we disagree. I'm sure you think the world would be a much better place if everyone thought the same as you did. How boring.

I'm far from an old man, I just call out a child, acting like a child, when I see it.

Love Dylan, saw him at SXSW a few years ago...Wish I could go back in time and see him playing in the Village.

reply to post by slowisfast


I may have inferred your stance incorrectly, and to some extent I apologize for that; However, I assumed anyone who genuinely cared about LGBT equality would have made that stance apparent sooner than page 5.

I know you're not intending to be bigoted about this... I even know MLK jr. wasn't very keen on gays. But those were different times. And acceptable stances on issues of this variety in the past are unacceptable ones today.

I realize that, in all likeliness, you have more first-hand experience with the civil rights movement than I do.

I realize blacks in America were treated, perhaps, more poorly than gays have been over the past three or so centuries. And that's a big perhaps.

However, the reality is, throughout the sum of recorded human history homosexuals have not had things better than Africans have. There were several era during which they had it worse - as well as several where they had it better. The culmination of their plights, stacked against each other, are not comparable. But both groups are/were the targets of violent crimes. Violent crimes of equal magnitude.

I realize that, for folks to whom the African-American civil rights movement touches a little closer to home, nothing can be compared - and I mean that on a Philosophical level - I mean to say that it's a taboo. I realize that it's touchy subject, and allowing another civil rights movement to be compared, in some people's eyes, is offensive.

But if I were to say "the plight of the Jews during World War II was more legitimate than the Black Civil Rights movement of the 1900's, you'd probably scoff at me and say "you're not looking at the big picture. Hate is hate no matter what the form."

Well, to you sir, I say hate is hate no matter what the form. And I strongly believe that if you'd only look at the bigger picture, and not what is happening only in recent years, and not only in the United States, you'd agree with me.

reply to post by HairlessApe


Well, this is pointless.
You've killed your own thread.

Originally posted by neobludragon
I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

last I heard, heterosexuals aren't beaten or killed because of their sexual identity, they are not disowned and hated by families, looked down upon hated by many in society. heterolsexuals aren't killiing themselves because of their sexuality.

OH THE IRONY!!!!!!!! we wouldn't need the pride parades if it wasn't for all the hate ,beatings ,and killings, by the people who bitch about this THE MOST....oh the irony!

Originally posted by slowisfast
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

Comparing homosexuality to the struggles of people of color is the most intellectually dishonest position a person can take on the matter. It's an insult.

In both cases you have a minority of people, who are born a certain way, and are being denied their civil rights because they were born that way. So it's not really that different after all.

Originally posted by slowisfast
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

Ones sexuality is an innately private matter, unlike the color of ones skin, and the nature of ones sexuality is only known to that person and the people they choose to share it with.

I'm sorry but most of my friends and family know I have a girlfriend, and they know I am straight. Same goes for most people, they are either out of the closet or have been in heterosexual relationships. I don't know where you come from, but here only a small minority of people hide in the closet or keep their sexual orientation a secret from the people around them. It is not private at all when you go telling everyone your getting married to another man, or have a new girlfriend etc.

Considering that's what you're basing your argument on, that the black civil rights struggle and gay civil rights struggle are not related in any way, then you might wanna try again.

reply to post by HairlessApe


How about beastiality, necro sex and pedos?? naturally occuring..

how about marriage to inanimate objects??

people have some very close relationships with pets.... some see them as children.. or a friend.. is it okay to see them as a potential life partner??

I could argue that wanting to marry same sex is retarded as they cannot procreate. science can bridge that.

what if science could bridge marriage with animals...what if science can allow for different species to procreate??

at what point do we draw the line on these things.

what next?? will we have people campaigning about how pedos have been shunned for such a long time?? are we going to have pedo parades?? beastiality parades?


they are sexual disorder. no matter how you slice it.

If homosexualism is all fine and dandy and natural normal whatever.. then that opens the discussion to other abnormal sexual behavior.

do you really want to be having this discussion about pedos and beastility in the future??

Pedophile = Sex with minors and children

Bestiality = Sex with animals

Homosexuality = Sex with humans of consenting age

Heterosexual = Sex with humans of consenting age

Gay does not = anal sex, straight people engage in anal sex likewise and some gays don't.

where and how does allowing Gay people to marry, or to agree or disagree that they are natural bridge a gap into Pedophiles and Bestiality?

Originally posted by Darth_Prime
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

No need to be ashamed for others,

Indeed, i have reiterated to the point of ad nauseum that i will defend anyone's right and freedom to speech, thought, belief and expression, even if it is 'against me', but we are afforded those same freedoms because we are as Human as you, our sexuality doesn't alter that fact

i am not trying to force anyone to think a certain way, i am trying to bring awareness that many things being said are based off misconceptions and misinterpretations,

Yes i am effeminate, Yes i am flamboyant, and yes i am a Drag Queen, but i am still a Human, once we forget that and the compassion for other humans is lost based on Sexuality, Race, Gender, Religion Etc we become more and more divided

Well, i am a proud straight man. Masculine as they come, almost of an alpha male tendency. And I am proud to call you my friend. Drag queen or not.

Screw the rest of the ignorant trolls.

Originally posted by polarwarrior

Originally posted by slowisfast
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

Comparing homosexuality to the struggles of people of color is the most intellectually dishonest position a person can take on the matter. It's an insult.

In both cases you have a minority of people, who are born a certain way, and are being denied their civil rights because they were born that way. So it's not really that different after all.

Originally posted by slowisfast
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

Ones sexuality is an innately private matter, unlike the color of ones skin, and the nature of ones sexuality is only known to that person and the people they choose to share it with.

I'm sorry but most of my friends and family know I have a girlfriend, and they know I am straight. Same goes for most people, they are either out of the closet or have been in heterosexual relationships. I don't know where you come from, but here only a small minority of people hide in the closet or keep their sexual orientation a secret from the people around them. It is not private at all when you go telling everyone your getting married to another man, or have a new girlfriend etc.

Considering that's what you're basing your argument on, that the black civil rights struggle and gay civil rights struggle are not related in any way, then you might wanna try again.

I agree, both groups of people have been denied civil rights and the correcting of our government and societies errors should be rectified quickly, in my opinion. While on the surface they're similar, if you look deeper, it's a different story. While gay rights are about marriages and legal status and changing societies views, at large, the struggle of African Americans was generational(families,communities), personal and stared back at them every time they looked in the mirror. My point is that while both are instances where liberty was withheld from two groups of people, to compare them as some sort of rallying cry is simply not fair to those who lived and died for the rights attained by the civil rights movement from the time human beings were brought over from Africa, against their will, up until the modern era. I don't have any cited data to back up my position, but I have had renough first hand experience to have made an informed opinion. They're not the same, they're different, and that's ok.

I never said they weren't related in any way, I've made it perfectly clear that on a level they are.

Of course people in your sphere would know your sexual orientation, that's normal. I never said anything to the contrary. But the fact is they are two different experiences and to compare the two outside of the obvious similarities is foolish. Two different experiences.

Ridiculous Example:

Don't Ask Don't Tell - Stupid, but law of the land, and kind of worked for a while.
Don't Be Black Don't Tell - ?

reply to post by slowisfast


The similarities are that both gays and blacks were discriminated for who they are (job-wise), they were both tortured (I'm not talking about suicide - I'm talking about actual murder for those who were gay). There was no don't ask don't tell for black people, that is true, but BOTH black and gay people were discriminated against.

Not only does racism continue to exist towards black people today (although to a lesser extent), there is much more hate towards gays currently.

So, if someone is comparing gays to black people I can definitely see the comparison.

Originally posted by slowisfast
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

Comparing homosexuality to the struggles of people of color is the most intellectually dishonest position a person can take on the matter. It's an insult. Ones sexuality is an innately private matter, unlike the color of ones skin, and the nature of ones sexuality is only known to that person and the people they choose to share it with.

Stop comparing gay rights to the civil rights movement, every time you do, you do people like Dr. King and Rosa Parks a great disservice.

edit on 1-7-2013 by slowisfast because: (no reason given)

Yes, but sexuality and race do have one thing in common. People don't get to choose either. They are born with it, and shouldn't have to deal with insults and hatred because of something they didn't choose.

reply to post by HairlessApe


The OP of the other thread tried to initially justify homosexuality because it occurs in other species and is therefore "natural." When it was pointed out that many other bad forms of behavior are also "natural", OP changed his tune to claim that homosexuality is justified because it is "victimless"--this was then shot down by posters who mentioned that many folks attempt to justify other behaviors---drug use and prostitution and beastiality ---because they are "victimless"--when with a little thought, one realizes there are victims of those actions also. That was the last I looked at that less-than-thoughtful thread. Now we have a resurrection of the same specious argument.


In addition, I would like to say that most people object to seeing overtly sexually suggestive conduct in public--whether a prostitute with too short hot-pants, or two homosexuals wrapped around each other. It has been labeled a sin by many cultures and religions, in the West we call it 'Lasciviousness."

And that type of obnoxious behavior seems very common amongst the LGBT club.

reply to post by MuzzleBreak

The OP of the other thread tried to initially justify homosexuality because it occurs in other species and is therefore "natural."

While I understand what you are saying, I believe that thread was primarily a response to those who are against homosexuality and use the argument that it isn't natural, therefore is bad. A common argument against homosexuality actually.

When it was pointed out that many other bad forms of behavior are also "natural", OP changed his tune to claim that homosexuality is justified because it is "victimless"

It was pretty much universally acknowledged that the argument against homosexuality, that it isn't natural, is an incorrect one, hence the discussion progressed towards other areas. I don't see any problem here. Discussions don't stand still, the fact that they change doesn't mean that what was initially said was incorrect. Also I fail to see there the OP in that thread said, "Let's be gay, after all it's natural". Accepting gays doesn't mean forcing everyone to become gay, or to "justify" people to become gay.

OP changed his tune to claim that homosexuality is justified because it is "victimless"--this was then shot down by posters who mentioned that many folks attempt to justify other behaviors---drug use and prostitution and beastiality ---because they are "victimless"--when with a little though

Neither drug use, prostitution or bestiality (spell it right) are necessarily victimless like homosexuality is. Your argument is stupid.

In addition, I would like to say that most people object to seeing overtly sexually suggestive conduct in public--whether a prostitute with too short hot-pants, or two homosexuals wrapped around each other. It has been labeled a sin by many cultures and religions, in the West we call it 'Lasciviousness."

And this is relevant how?

Also it is taboo for people to even acknowledge that they are gay, to acknowledge that they even have a same-sex partner, it is taboo for them to hold hands, or show any form of affection in public. The only people who seemingly want to bring up things like wild gay sex acts in public are people such as yourself (hardly surprising.). Accepting gays has very little to do with accepting that.

Also had I reached that thread earlier, I would have absolutely destroyed most of the homophobes. I am the god damn lizard king.

reply to post by HairlessApe


Dear HairlessApe,

I'm sure, if confronted, this ATSer, as well as ANY person who thinks in such a logically-flawed manner would argue something along the lines of "I wasn't saying homosexuality is comparable to murder, rape, or cannibalism. I was just saying they're both naturally occuring." But clearly they ARE drawing that ridiculous comparison. If they weren't, they would have no reason to say something so incredibly inflammatory.

You are right, now what? Homosexuality is, it has been around for a long time and it makes straights, like me, uncomfortable. I don't feel uncomfortable around the gays that I preach to. Read my posts and threads before you respond to me. Tell me I am lying or making things up. I still uncomfortable with the thought of being with another man. Should I lie to others about this. I am not correcting you, I am trying to teach you something. People feel uncomfortable with the idea of two men sleeping together, that is reality. You can tell them all the reasons they should not feel uncomfortable; but, they do. Never tell people they don't feel the way they do. It isn't a conversation it is fascism, it is totalitarianism. It goes against free will.

I like free will. I don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me. The moment we start thinking the world can only be right if everyone agrees with us is when we become our own worst enemy. Lets try and figure out how to make things better. The victim always has to forgive first or we are only led by "right thinkers".

reply to post by seabag

Why can't we just be people?

Irony level 9000. Cannot process it. Brain swelling...



The way you describe "normal" reminds me of a movie called Equilibrium where the population was forced to take a pill that took away emotion. They all dressed in suits too!

A world where everyone walked and talked "normal" sounds fabulously boring. I'll take the diversity that is people expressing their true colours over that bleak distopian normalcy.

Not to broadcast it and shove it down your throat but I am bisexual. My dress habits probably meet your standards. Sandals, jeans, plain shirts and baseball hats. Walk and talk "normal". I wouldn't call it normal...I'd call it not very exciting

From my viewpoint it seems like many here are saying flamboyant gay men are loud and obnoxious. This annoys them. What annoys them is wrong and they should stop. Take this to another context and you'd probably tell said person who's annoyed to man up and deal with it. Yet concerning flamboyant gay men you think the manly thing to do is not to man up at all.

Here is my logic.

Some people prefer to have sex with animals.

Why govt is not making it legal ?

Govt should support these partners ,too.

And maybe group partners,who act like kangaroos.That is all natural.Your govt should support them ,too.

I see forward to it.

And one other natural thing I saw on national geographic documentary movie was about king cobra.


national geographic : Secrets Of The King Cobra 2011


A male king cobra killed a female king cobra which was pregnant from another male king cobra.

reply to post by mideast


As I have said more than once on ATS if you want have sex with animals start a movement, arrange a protest, petition your government! And let me add "Good luck on your quest!"

This argument that you put forward is so ridiculous that anyone with more than one brain cell would realise that you're barking mad!

Have fun taking your children to obedience school and training them to jump through hoops!

reply to post by ifeelsohigh


And those people who put stickers on their cars stating they are "NOTW", and the ichtus, and the darwin ichtus, and the proud parents of honor roll students, and, well, you get it.

How bout everyone just be proud of what they want to be proud, and those that don't like it, be proud of not liking it?
Why do we have to argue about what we can and can't be proud of?

I now live in a predominantly mormon community and am not mormon, I don't like it but I don't go around telling everyone I don't like it. Now if someone asks me how I feel about mormonism, I wll gladly spew forth my rhetoric, but I don't make a point of spouting off every time I see an LDS sticker or drive past a ward or see their elders with their awesome nametags riding around.

I guess the whole "live and let live" ideal is just that, an ideal, right?