The government is not the problem

Originally posted by neo96

In a Republic you can't rob from a minority to benefit the majority that is the basic fundamental foundation.

They're not robbing from a minority. As a country we collectively agree that taxation is necessary to prop up the sort of system we have.

Originally posted by neo96
Right now 100 million Ameircans ARE DEPENDENT on GOVERNMENT via forced taxation of redistrubitive wealth so they can go out and buy CORPORATE PRODUCTS.

No, they are given money because some people are disabled and can't hope that anyone will hire them. Due to automation and offshoring there are fewer jobs in this country than people and this means that millions of people have no choice but to swallow their pride and accept welfare. The only other option for these people is to be taken in by family or to live in a homeless shelter or on the street.

Only so many people can be cashiers and the more jobs that are replaced by robots, self checkout lines and more efficient automation technologies the more people will be permanently unemployed. What else are you going to do aside from give them government money? It really works out for the wealthy's benefit as well since if they were hungry and on the street the rich would have to fear their wrath and shut themselves into heavily guarded gated communities.

Private and corporate entities spend billions upon billions of dollars every year persuading government to pass legislation that favors their interests. Yet they are not the problem? Furthermore, they are actually the solution? I hope people realize that the argument that private interests are not a large part of the problem sounds absolutely absurd.

I'm inclined to think that the OP is only partially right. The problem does not originate in the government it originates in a variety of places. We have a bunch of waste originating from communities trying to stimulate growth when it is not needed. We have a lot of businesses saying to the government that their services are necessary when in fact they aren't. It is everyone trying to get a piece of the buck and nobody wanting to pay any taxes in anymore. We have a messed up country. On top of that, a lot of money is being wasted on not so honest defense contractors. Some big corporations are trying to get control of everything but that only amounts to about ten percent of them. Most companies know that they need to be represented but everything is going overboard. I would put a lot of the blame on the stock markets and the banks also, but I am not sure that these bad policy makers are a major contributer. It is all screwed up. I can't see a way of fixing it. When government cuts are made, they cut the budgets on thing that have the most impact on society and the least impact on wasted money.

My thinking is a little scattered today, too much junk food today.

reply to post by lampsalot


The government is always the problem. That's why the founding fathers went to such extraordinary lengths to limit it's size and power.

reply to post by Dianec


There are only two ways anyone is ever going to get rid of 'corporate' influence' in government:

1. Shrink the size and power of it

2. Nirbu hitting Washington DC.

Neither one is going to happen because those politicians know the more laws they write the more they get paid.

Rinsed and repeated for over 200 years.

Originally posted by lampsalot
Do you think electorial democracy is inherently flawed and that consumerism guarantees people's rights better than democracy?

First of all America is not and never was designed to be a Democracy, it is a Representative Republic and they are no where even remotely near the same. Our founding fathers wrote many papers and letters showing their distain for democracies, and many of those are available with a simple internet search.

The reason that the republic has failed is not because of the private sector it is because the elected representatives have failed to honor their sacred oaths to the people and have instead been corrupted by greed and power.

Or is the problem that private interest is so powerful that the public system is crushed under the weight of it and is essentially powerless?

It has nothing to do with the private interests being so powerful, it does however have everything to do with the elected representatives being too weak and lacking the virtue and moral fortitude to resist the bought off corruption that is brought by greed and lust for power.

reply to post by lampsalot

They're not robbing from a minority. As a country we collectively agree that taxation is necessary to prop up the sort of system we have.

Yes they are the more someone makes they more they pay last time I checked less than 10 million 'millionaires' 400 billionaires. and the majority using more money than they return in to that system,

reply to post by lampsalot

No, they are given money because some people are disabled and can't hope that anyone will hire them. Due to automation and offshoring there are fewer jobs in this country than people and this means that millions of people have no choice but to swallow their pride and accept welfare. The only other option for these people is to be taken in by family or to live in a homeless shelter or on the street.

Things people used to do on their own long before government ever came along passing the buck on to someone else is not the same thing via Goverment Domination.

No, they are given money because some people are disabled and can't hope that anyone will hire them. Due to automation and offshoring there are fewer jobs in this country than people and this means that millions of people have no choice but to swallow their pride and accept welfare. The only other option for these people is to be taken in by family or to live in a homeless shelter or on the street.

They are offshoring because of that 'Government help' have anything other than 'emotional arguments' ?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Dianec

 

There are only two ways anyone is ever going to get rid of 'corporate' influence' in government:

1. Shrink the size and power of it

2. Nirbu hitting Washington DC.

Neither one is going to happen because those politicians know the more laws they write the more they get paid.

Rinsed and repeated for over 200 years.

I understand but its unethical as it gets. The two should be separate and any evidence they aren't should be treated like inside trading would be (of course they still do that too). Ideal versus reality. So the solution may only lie in reducing the size of governments reach, also unlikely to happen.

Originally posted by neo96
Things people used to do on their own long before government ever came along passing the buck on to someone else is not the same thing via Goverment Domination.

So you would rather be ruled by Bentonville and Palo Alto than by Washington? I mean I'm not a huge fan of our government or anything but I like to think I'm wise enough to realise that if they disappeared overnight we would lose rather than gain rights.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by lampsalot

 

They're not robbing from a minority. As a country we collectively agree that taxation is necessary to prop up the sort of system we have.

Yes they are the more someone makes they more they pay last time I checked less than 10 million 'millionaires' 400 billionaires. and the majority using more money than they return in to that system,

I don't agree that direct income taxation is necessary. We can get by with tarriff, import, and sales taxes just like we did for a long time when this nation was founded. Unconstitutional spending has made this mess.

Originally posted by Nucleardiver

It has nothing to do with the private interests being so powerful, it does however have everything to do with the elected representatives being too weak and lacking the virtue and moral fortitude to resist the bought off corruption that is brought by greed and lust for power.

I agree that you can't hold the governments (or the citizenry, for that matter) blameless. The fact that not only do we tolerate it, we actually expect bribery to go on behind the scenes is downright disgraceful.

It doesn't change the fact that private enterprise is incredibly powerful. If government officials did not accept these bribes there would be sanctions for them and for the military.

reply to post by Dianec

I understand but its unethical as it gets. T

It is nothing government does is for the benefit of the people it is for the benefit of themselves they want power, they want control and they will never stop using us to get it..

reply to post by lampsalot

So you would rather be ruled by Bentonville and Palo Alto than by Washington?

Here is the thing.

We weren't never meant to be ruled over WE ARE THE RULERS of GOVERNMENT.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

I don't agree that direct income taxation is necessary. We can get by with tarriff, import, and sales taxes just like we did for a long time when this nation was founded. Unconstitutional spending has made this mess.

I never said direct income taxation is necessary, I just said taxation is. At least for the mass society we have now. When open source green energy grids and decentralised three dimensional printing are widespread there won't be as much of a need for governments and taxation systems nor for corporations. But that's generations off.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I don't agree that direct income taxation is necessary. We can get by with tarriff, import, and sales taxes just like we did for a long time when this nation was founded. Unconstitutional spending has made this mess.

Absolute not income taxation should be abolished and it stop being used as wedge issues for government to divide and conquer us so it can maintain it's control.

I can agree with what the OP is trying to say.
Corporations pay government officials to make things easier so that they can control the consumers, and so on. Thus providing both with more money. This may not be the case for everything, but money is an alluring tool. This is absolutely, one of the biggest problems causing some of the issues today.

I for one, am not against the government
- and with all of the hype surrounding it, I won't be led astray by the sensationalist 'the government is out to get you' rhetoric that is so common these days.

It's the same old story.

I agree,
many issues plague the politics of the era. Politics in general, is somewhat - retarded.

I do have my own political views.
And I do have my own ideologies for how I think things should be run.

But the process in which decisions are made in the current system is flawed.
People spend too much time complaining and debating, rather then fixing what's wrong in the first place. Most of the time, causing and contributing to the very problems they are trying to solve.

reply to post by lampsalot


I don't want to be ruled by either. The reason our country is so screwed up is because the paradigm in which our political system exists represents a false choice... much like the one you give here. I don't want Government to go away, I just want Government to operate within the small box that it is designed to operate in by the Constitution... which by the way guarantees us a REPUBLICAN form of Government. The word Democracy is not found once in the Constitution, therefore your argument is already based on a false premise.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by lampsalot

 

So you would rather be ruled by Bentonville and Palo Alto than by Washington?

Here is the thing.

We weren't never meant to be ruled over WE ARE THE RULERS of GOVERNMENT.

And we were never meant to be ruled over by DC, that was the entire purpose of the 10th Amendment, states rights.

The power of the federal government was very very limited, only to provide for national defense, regulating commerce between the individual states, and coinage of money. DC however has warped the commerce clause to include everything and anything they want. The commerce clause was instituted to prevent port states from charging tariffs and such to landlocked states, not to give the federal government the authority to make laws on anything that travelled between states.