Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

reply to post by adjensen


Hmm.. So I, as god, create a program and watch it run.

And when the program has a bug, I go and punish myself for it.

And the program is then supposed to go "Oh hang on, that's nice of him!" and that's how the program pays me back for the bugs I introduced with my buggy code.

Eh?

Still illogical, still silly..

reply to post by TheIceQueen


The logic is here that GWB said god told me to invade-iraq after 2000 years.

And no matter how many he kills , your god is always there for Christians to forgive them.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

I don't agree with that whatsoever. God wanted a creature that would freely choose to love and obey Him out of it's free will. The secondary consequence of that is the fact that some creatures would reject that and rebel from Him. God didn't want robots. I would do the same if I were God, create a being the had the choice to love or rebel.

You cannot force or program love.

But he flooded them and only kept 2 of every kind.

So he did intend on 'fixing' things if they went wrong, but instead, after killing them all, decided to send his only son, who then failed also, and now...

now we're left to decode riddles and hidden meaning from a book written by men.

See the problem? Ahh faith... who'd be a sinner eh?

There is no logic to it, that's the honest answer, if you want logic
you cannot find it in the bible, religion is not and cannot be based on
logic because it would be self defeating. Also logic would be
a very destructive thing for just about any religion, here is an example,
god says not to murder people, he then proceeded to murder over
2 million people himself, many for trivial reasons, my favorite is where
he sends a bear after 40 children for the simple act of mocking a man,
think about that logically, 40 children make fun of a man and the punishment
was death for that, god being the end all be all of morality chose that
path amongst the thousands of other ways he could have punished those
children, nah not moral, not special just simple brutal murder.

Morality as the bible paints it is just sick, god murdered the first born
of every parent in Egypt just to punish their parents, so not only
did god let those guilty live, he killed innocents just to make his
point, and remember this is a supposedly omnipotent being who
could have simply tortured those parents with say a hallucination of
their kids all being dead, or pain so immense no human could
ever comprehend it, logically this god makes no sense.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


The writers of the bible got the idea of placing one's sins on another from this (hence, the Jesus crucifixion story):

scape·goat
/ˈskāpˌgōt/
Noun
(in the Bible) A goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).

Originally posted by TheIceQueen

Originally posted by Kreyvic
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

It wasn't just for forgiveness,but to thwart the devil and to release those who were in Hades/ shoals /paradise.

Err, okay.. EVEN BETTER. So, let me rephrase part of my initial question.. Why did god feel the need/desire to send his son to earth to be betrayed, tortured, and then crucified in order to a: forgive us for our sins b: "thwart the devil"

c: "release those who were in hades/ (actually the name of one of greek mythology's 'gods' and where he ruled) "shoals"(?)/paradise ?

HOW would sending his only son to be tortured and then killed on a cross do the above? I just don't understand.. Am I missing something? God + Son ÷ Sending one to be tortured and killed, knowingly= God being able to or having the cause/desire to forgive humans of their sins (which he created them with), the thwarting of the devil, and the release of individuals who are in another mythological god's underworld/shoals/paradise? That equaton just seems a bit... err... inconsequental to me...

..you sound honest TIQ

from what i understood -
once, male and female had a stunning being
- not at áll like this present physical frame we have now.

..but bot 'fell ' into this lower dimension - the apple story -
and thereby fell into this [ingenious, still] but very poor physical frame.

which is ruled by lucifer.
- some proof of that is hypnotism...subliminal things... etc, we are susceptible for,
but even móre, that he, lucifer, devised this hologram, with all its Spelled reality,
to can kéep ruling us - via this frame.

true ?

now.... - hów to get Souls out of this p[hysical frame, this prison,
which is [ and that is important ! ] Legally Owned by lucifer ??

legally: because it was males and females Own Choice to eat that apple ?

...God cannot use Force to undo that: that d infringe the Free Will, which is so, so important in the higher realms

so
there was only 1 way out -
He' [God] took this frame, when incarnated
and let lucifer destroy lucifers own physical type of frame - by the crucifixion
- He let lucifer destroy lucifers own prison - this frame - which lucifer imprisoned human souls by.

The concept of " something higher as you, standing in the gap for you", is massive

hope that helps

..the problem with todays understanding, from too many, of the phrase "..He died for our sins ",

imagine a 2 year old, in his diaper, just having pushed a toy square through a square hole
he s very proud on himself
but he is way, way, way off , still, from being a young, bright, handsome Knight.....true ..

- Most of us [ and sadly most of christianity is misled that way ] ,
we think "we havent that much sin ? and doing actually pretty well ? " -
while refusing to understand, we have the Consciousness of that two year old laying in a diaper still

ever saw peter pan movie with Hoffmann as capt Hook ?
applauding the young kid , as long that kid was like Hook wanted him to be ?
so is lucifer keeping ús in that 2 year old consciousness

way, way off from that original created stunning being

bless you

reply to post by TheIceQueen


And for those X-stian sects that believe in the Trinity, it is even more wacky because Jesus is god -- I guess his avatar/material form on earth. So he sends down his material form in order for him to put all of humans' sins upon himself, thereby somehow providing absolution to humans for their sins. Wouldn't it have been more straightforward just to come to earth in his jesus form and tell people to forgive each other their sins, and god could just forgive them as well. Why the need for the sturm and drang?

Or better yet, why not put the forgiveness thing into the 10 Commandments, i.e.: these 10 things are really bad and you shouldn't do them, but if you believe in me and acknowledge my earthly, material avatar as your personal savior before you die, then you will be forgiven and saved from hellfire and brimstone.

But hey, this Holy Trinity is an admitted mystery even to X-stians, so us pagans, heathens and heretics shouldn't feel too bad about not getting it.

reply to post by MrInquisitive


Its not necessarily that we don't "get it"

its that we don't agree with it because its illogical from the get go according to their own book

If I were the devil I would have Jesus, the son of God killed in the most barbaric way, perhaps on something like a crucifix. I would then have generations of worshipers and religious leaders perform pagan rituals in front of the symbol of his death offering thanks in memory of his death. I would also teach that humans are all sinners and that you will be forgiven for your sins if you are submissive to my power and obey only me.

Here is a post I did for a similar thread a little while back

The first thing you need to realise is what was the true mission of Jesus. No, it wasn't to start a new religion. It was to tell and show people the truth of themselves. What they were, what life was about and what would happen after death and how death could be defeated.

Jesus came to preach and teach the FACT of immortality. He taught that if people followed his advice he would show them the 'way' the 'truth' and they would have 'life everlasting'. Immortality.

By the time Jesus started his public ministry, he has already changed his human body to an immortal physical body (This transformation was accomplished during the 'missing years' when Jesus travelled and studied in India and various other locations)

Having attained the exalted state of being an immortal, Jesus had gained full control of his body and the nature forces coursing through it. This explains the ability to perform miracles (the ability to control nature forces) but more to the point of this thread it also made Jesus immune to injury, pain or death. Unless Jesus allowed these things to take place.

Jesus taught his disiples and followers that they too could do the things he could do. Now, however there was a slight problem with the teachings of Jesus about immortality. How do you prove to people that you have changed your body to the extent that you have conquered pyhsical death.

You cant just dissapear into the clouds. What does that prove to people about conquering death....nothing.

There had to be a very public death....lots of witnesses. There also had to be a very public reserrection. Jesus appeared to many people after he had risen, including Paul on the road to Damascus.

So the crucifiction and reserrection was the 'proof' of the teachings about immortality. Proof that an ordinary man could by following a certain way of living, change his/her mortal physical body subject to pain,sickness and death, to an immortal physical body, no longer subject to pain sickness or death.

All of the teachings of Jesus have not come down to us. Those that have have been missunderstood, mutilated, mangled and maimed to such an extent they no longer make much sense to those that give them but a cursory glance. However if a careful study is made, it becomes clear of the true purpose and teachings of Jesus.

reply to post by TheIceQueen

Did the planet of jupiter face a castration or something, surely?

Uranus got castrated by Saturn who was overthrown by Jupiter. Saturn is cast into hell, therefore there are 3 heavens. Perfect sense. But where the hell is hell? Hell must be in heaven.

That was the old days though, now we have 7 heavens. That's a relief! See, it all works out.

This is a question I have pondered myself a lot. I respect everyone's beliefs, but this belief structure is one of many in many different religions which I've always strained to see the, for lack of a better term, functional underpinnings of.

I understand that it was custom to assign the sins of the people to a sacrificial entity, generally an animal, in order to expunge the sins of the community. So from a traditional standpoint I can comprehend the conceptualization of the sins of humanity being applied to a man and that man's death expunging them. But I have never seen anyone rationally explain the functional mechanism of such a scenario.

In order for this to work, "sin" would have to be a tangible, ontologically isolated "thing." That is to say, not simply wrongdoing or immorality or error, but its own distinct entity or energy or what have you. It would then somehow have to be taken into or "placed upon" the sacrificial scapegoat and destroyed with their death. How does that work, according to those who hold this belief? That is the question I think is actually being asked. How do believers perceive "sin?" Is it some sort of mystical energy which can be transferred, destroyed, cleansed, etc.? And if so, on what basis is that belief arrived at?

A poster above suggested that all of that is misinterpretation and that the actual reality was one of simple demonstration. E.g. that the death and resurrection did not actually account for "sin," but rather led people to believe in immortality by demonstrating that it was even possible at all to those who had no basis for believing it was previously. But that isn't what traditional Christianity teaches. That's an interesting belief and one, like all beliefs, I respect, but it isn't congruent with the actual teachings of the religion being discussed.

Then there's the question: if the creator deity was willing to simply take people's "sin" from them through an intermediary, why couldn't this all powerful creator simply do so itself? That's another thing I've never understood the rationale behind. Why was the Christ figure even necessary as an intermediary? If his function was to teach, lead by example, and take sin into himself so as to account for the sins of humanity, why couldn't God simply do this himself?

Anyway, it's an interesting scenario to ponder. Personally I'm agnostic and skeptical, but I respect and accept everyone's varied beliefs, and love everyone in my own way.

Peace.

My current opinion is that the message was supposed to be "Love is Life", by giving a live example of the power of love, "Jesus Christ". I believe this is supposed to be the christian way to explain how we are supposed to work toward our evolution process into what we understand (or misunderstand due to our level of knowledge) into what we call,"Heaven".

According to the King James Version of "The Holy Bible", Psalm 82 and John chapter 10, We are all gods made in the likeness of the first (which to me could be translated as the main body as a whole unit being), with no known boundaries, limitations, etc...

My support:

Psalm 82:

mobile.biblegateway.com...

John10:

mobile.biblegateway.com...

The above obtained from biblegateway.com

I believe this to be a way to increase our awareness to strengthen as well as elevate our level of consciousness.



I am not a christian, I'm not saying that this is to be the absolute truth for mankind, I have not read the whole bible and all, I'm not a historian or scientist. That being said I'm just stating my opinion. Thank you for your time and consideration.

reply to post by mideast

The logic is here that GWB said god told me to invade-iraq after 2000 years.

I got kicked out of Sunday school for questioning that.

The teacher was explaining how the U.S. would fulfill prophecy of destroying Babylon the Great because Saddam Hussein once remarked that he would bring the glory back.

When I asked "when the U.S. flag is flying over Babylon wouldn't that make the U.S. Babylon the Great?"; that's when I got kicked out and told that I could only return if I swore never to ask questions.

So I never went back.

reply to post by jeramie

You aren't supposed to quote large blocks of text like that.
Did you think no one would recognize it?

Cite the sources. E.G. White, Great Controversy is one.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So just what was the point of Jesus dying a torturous death as a human sin sacrifice... if animal sin sacrifices are to be restored?

That's the Zionist version of Christianity.

Evidently, Zionists don't care if Jesus died for nothing.

The beyond insane idea of an extremely brutal execution (crucifixion) only to serve as some kind of lightning rod or credit card for others' sins is basically no different from the days when they would throw children into volcanos in order to "appease the gods." Same basic insanity, ignorance.

Oh yeah, that's right, I forgot; we're talking about the sacrifice of THE one and ONLY begotten Son of the alleged "God" or Creator of the ENTIRE infinite, incomprehensible universe. I mean, where else but THIS violent and ignorant Hellhole could POSSIBLY be the center of the universe or Creation??!!

reply to post by bloodreviara

god murdered the first born
of every parent in Egypt just to punish their parents, so not only
did god let those guilty live, he killed innocents just to make his
point, and remember this is a supposedly omnipotent being who
could have simply tortured those parents with say a hallucination of
their kids all being dead,

But that is how he did it.

It didn't really happen, but it was written in a book.
People read the book and hallucinate that it really happened.
That way people are made to fear.
That's the purpose of the story.

God is just and merciful simultaneously. His standard is moral perfection. Through Adam's sin, all of creation was corrupted, hence we all sin (we are slaves to sin). Since God is just, all sin must be punnished. If a judge is lenient or biased in his judgement, he would not be just. He must uphold the law to the letter. The only way The judge could be just and merciful would be if they declared you guilty, and paid your fine for you. As far as the court was concerned, your fine was paid and the law has been satisfied.

The Bible says the wages of sin is death. We have all sinned, even if all we have done is told 1 lie. Remember a just judge cannot overlook any transgression of the law. We all have earned hell, it doesn't matter how good of a person you think you are. The good news is God being merciful sent His son, Jesus Christ (who Is God in the flesh) to suffer and die the penalty we deserve. Therefore, upon acceptance and faith that God paid our fine, we can be forgiven, and inherit eternal life. The only illogical aspect of this, is why God could care so much for people that hate him and mock him continually. Repent and trust in the Savior while there is still time