Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

a reply to: TheIceQueen

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

This entire concept of modern Christianity has been distorted. The first century Christians had a different understanding than most do today. Let me start with before the death of Jesus. It was the doctrine of Jesus that all people would enter Sheol at the time of their death. As the soul would die the spirit of that soul would still retain its consciousness and enter one of many divisions of Sheol. The spirits were separated in Sheol as to their worth. The bad from the good but regardless all were prisoners in Sheol. At this point no one had entered the celestial third heaven.

The salvation message now comes into play. When Christians say that Jesus came to save them it is looked at in two forms. Foremost is the fact that Christians should understand that Jesus came to deliver the worthy spirits from Sheol and into the kingdom of heaven (God). This is the kingdom that He preached and yet never revealed during His ministry. This was to become His new covenant. This new covenant was to be shown after he shed His blood. All blood covenants were understood as being life giving because life was in the blood.

As Christ Jesus then died He reveled His Kingdom of God as being the heavenly celestial city of New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is located in the third heaven and is not of this world. As Jesus and His two companions were dieing Jesus promised the one companion that he would be in paradise with Him the same day that both of them would die. This promise was that both would be in paradise that same day they died. Most bibles show paradise as mentioned three time. This explains that paradise is in the third heaven, has the water and tree of life, and is located in New Jerusalem. The first Christians believed that death was not an unconscious state of existence.

The entire message of Christ Jesus was to revels His kingdom, bring the captives out of captivity with a new covenant. In effect He became the governor that pardoned those who were in Sheol and gave them celestial life. Thus the word save or salvation. The message became twisted by religion as to have an altogether different approach which left out the kingdom of God (heaven). This was to satisfy the pagan practices of the Roman world.

The doctrine of Jesus is not the same doctrine as rabbinic doctrine. The doctrine of Jesus is that as a soul dies, that spirit of the dead soul is judged immediately. The soul can only die the one physical death and its elements return to its source. The spirit is immediately judged and sentenced to either Sheol or New Jerusalem. The spirit in Sheol is a naked spirit while the spirit in heaven is a clothed spirit. The clothed spirit in heaven is believed to be the Shekinah glory of a new celestial body or garment of purity. It was the belief of the first Christians that this heavenly body would sustain life from the tree of life and water of life and live forever in New Jerusalem.

This only touches on the doctrine of Jesus but is shown here only to explain that the Christian salvation message of today is far different than that of the first century Christians. In true Christianity they do not understand that everyone in graves will rise up in the last day. That is rabbinical teaching. The first Christians understanding is that as each one of us dies, that one is immediately rewarded or punished as a fully conscious spirit. The spirit is sentenced and the judgment is then carried out immediately. We then have a future tradition as to one world wide gathering and judgment, a one thousand years return of the Christ, and then the final gathering of all people who are alive at that time of the end.

You are correct in that it does not make sense the hundreds of teachings of today. The NT is quite confusing in that it actually contains much rabbinic theology and Christ Jesus' theology combined. It is actually a transition from rabbinic to Christian philosophy. Most seminaries today will teach an altogether different approach as to the meaning of salvation as compared to first century Christianity.

It's what happens when you reverse-engineer badly cobbled together material.
Hedge - 'Gods ways are not our ways'.

This character died for all our sins, past-present and future...sins that were committed, were being committed, and were (into perpetuity) going to be commited. That's called a stacked deck.
Intelligence in dealing with your 'children/issue/splinters of yourself', is not displayed by threats - but Intelligence...and given the superior intelligence of an Almighty, the logic of threats, scapegoats (satan, characters offering themselves for the gamut of human (blue marble species) sins - into the future)...does not follow any logic...why wasn't it done at the very beginning? Would've given the all the little children the time between the GofE and the placement of the son upon the cross of the material experience, to work things out...but having worked things out sooner, there would be no need for the armageddon Episode, with the fireworks and dirge/fanfare...an episode with main character inserted at the beginning of the story, who presumably (is allowed?) is some considerable challenge to its creator - that's what I call origami of the finest sort...

A cobbled story looks like a cobbled story.

Å99

Personally it gives me strength when I'm about to do something dangerous. Usually a risky Skateboarding trick.

I say, "Lord, if you were willing to be tortured to death for me, than I will attempt this with faith and no fear of injury, in your name".........something to that effect.

Crazy thing is, whenever I do this, what I call the vow, I always land the maneuver and ride away stoked and unscathed.

But ya, your OP is great, thought provoking, and well written. I also do not see the logic, it baffles me and causes me much spiritual turmoil. I still choose to believe though.

He is bigger than us, his plans, his ways, this life is but a blip in the grand scale, it's all very mysterious.

a reply to: dollukka

but how did he 'put everyones sins ''on'' Jesus?' is it some kind of magical cloak of sins? thought he was nacked when he died. haha. no im joking, i know he is supposed to be able to make anything happen (God) but i just think theres no fact to it? why should we just believe that God stuck everyone sins on Jesus when he died. so random.

a reply to: GoShredAK

people say this about rubbing a certain charm or crystal in their hand a few times before they do something, some people say this about thinking of a loved one before they do something, four leaf clovers, charm braclets, lucky trainers, lucky hats... the list goes on.

when you think about it, its like when you first learnt how to ride a bike without stabilisers and your parents tell you their still holding on and supporting you even if they have infact let go - you THINKING their there (or God's there) guiding you / protecting you will automatically make you think about failing less, and of course a positive mind = positive outcome.

If i was you i'd feel better taking credit for my own achievements then putting it down to 'god'

a reply to: endot

but how did he 'put everyones sins ''on'' Jesus?' is it some kind of magical cloak of sins? . . . why should we just believe that God stuck everyone sins on Jesus when he died. so random.

Good question. That is a thing that some people believe in, that somehow our sins are transferred onto Jesus like a scapegoat, and that does away with our "sin guilt", being "paid for", so we do not have to be punished for them.

The actual biblical teaching is a lot more ordinary, which is someone who was free of his own personal sin was "made sin for us", meaning that he became the embodiment of sin, as a spectacle to the world, hanging on the cross as the most vile of sinners.
The idea being, that here was someone who to all appearances was cursed of God, but instead, he was vindicated by God by being raised from the dead in a glorified body and eventually taken to heaven and given the highest of honors.

Jesus, a man, and by all appearances, a man like us, and condemned by the world, having such a good outcome, should give us hope that if we do our best and become as good as is possible for us, we will also be accepted in the name of Jesus and be in heaven with him.