Individual vs collective meaning of life

Originally posted by sulaw
Could it be that it is both Collective and Individual? That all participants in this game of life as we know it, must collectively be at a certain pinnacle prior to the evolutionary jump?

This is very well put into words. Intuitively it feels close to what might be going on. Even if you are ready for something bigger, you may be placed again into conditions which you seem to have outgrown. That's inexplainable from the individual standpoint, but can be explained from the collective standpoint. You can be in a position when you don't really have any significant personal goals in your life not because you are dumb and indifferent, but because you already reached the next level. Then the only option you have is to participate in what's going on. Again this is just a speculation.

HI,
Thanks,
Good question.

It would seem to me that we are Creations living in Creation and thus are to Create on an individual level...and CO-Create on a collective level.
What these creations and co-creations are and will be, is likely up to the Creator...or...Creators, because my understanding is that there may be an omni-force as the foundation of Creation, permeating and sustaining all lifes existence, and that in a certain term, there forms a hierarchical closeness to this omni-force by ones life-force, revealing this omni-force in ones life and thus accessing its power, and not necessarily used for good.
Thus a purpose would be bringing this omni-force into the realms of experience...but there are some with greater access who wish to advance our own access and others who wish to diminish it for their own advancement.

We Create as one (individual) or we Co-Create as One (collective).

LOVE

Everyone can reach enlightenment or gain more insight than average in life. With average people spending more time on work and play. You spend less on play and more on deep thoughts and answers will come to you.

Otherwise you are like average just spending time, not adding new things to the collective psyche, just learning what your ancestors already learned in the past and living a life within their frame of thinking, not perfecting anything or finding new ways to view reality and interact with it, just do what everybody else did for the past few centuries.

I think individual and collective meaning of life exist alongside of each other, but on different levels of perception. Personally, I have always been a bit of an outsider and am as a result a little uncomfortable with the dynamics of groups and mobs... so for me, individual meaning of life weighs heavier... but I will respect the possibility that a completely different mode of perception may shape meaning of life for individuals who associate strongly with each other. Viva la difference!

There is no "true" collective. The collective is just a bunch of individuals contained in a group to be controlled as "ONE" large group with the same mindset.

Why do people assume there is a "purpose" to existence?

If God exists, life is meaningless because what "purpose" would an eternal God have? Nothing, just to interact with by its creations.

If God doesn't exist, then life is meaningless because everything is just happening.


You can hide behind the word "God", but even then you'll have to admit at some point that there is no meaning to life.

It is not "depressing" unless you choose to look at it in a "depressing" way. I see it as ultimate freedom. Without a purpose we can create our own purpose to life - and that is what we have been doing for thousands of years.

Originally posted by arpgme

 

There is no "true" collective. The collective is just a bunch of individuals contained in a group to be controlled as "ONE" large group with the same mindset.

Why do people assume there is a "purpose" to existence?

If God exists, life is meaningless because what "purpose" would an eternal God have? Nothing, just to interact with by its creations.

If God doesn't exist, then life is meaningless because everything is just happening.

So you can't win either way?

Originally posted by arpgme

Why do people assume there is a "purpose" to existence?

If God exists, life is meaningless because what "purpose" would an eternal God have? Nothing, just to interact with by its creations.

If God doesn't exist, then life is meaningless because everything is just happening.

What if God exists, but needs to sustain his existence? Maybe existence is free, but creation is not free and requires resources. And these resources may be produced on islets such as Earth, in quasars, in galaxy cores, or elsewhere.

It is not "depressing" unless you choose to look at it in a "depressing" way. I see it as ultimate freedom. Without a purpose we can create our own purpose to life - and that is what we have been doing for thousands of years.

I believe that the ultimate freedom is to love what you do and to do what you love. Being in a constant search of a purpose does not constitute freedom in my book. It's more like trying to find a safe passage through a minefield by trial-and-error. If you know the map, you may feel safer, and still remain free. But, on the other hand, it's just an exaggerated metaphor

Originally posted by mrkeen

 

I believe that the ultimate freedom is to love what you do and to do what you love.

Sounds rather selfish to me. Not even "love" a person but a thing or activity.

To answer your own question, is that individual or collective? How does it give your life meaning? I'm not saying that you must have a deep meaning, but this just makes you feel good.

reply to post by mrkeen

Originally posted by mrkeen
What if God exists, but needs to sustain his existence?

If that is the case, it would be God giving himself a purpose (survival). Whether he lives or dies, it is just happening. Unless there is a purpose beyond God; and if there is a purpose beyond God what would that be?

Even if there were a purpose beyond God, there would have to be another purpose to give that purpose meaning, and another purpose to give that purpose meaning, and another purpose to give that purpose meaning.

At some point, we will have to admit that things just exist and purpose is just a perspective - how one chooses to value something.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
Sounds rather selfish to me. Not even "love" a person but a thing or activity.

To answer your own question, is that individual or collective? How does it give your life meaning? I'm not saying that you must have a deep meaning, but this just makes you feel good.

All individuals are 'specialized'. If you are not special, you have no meaning aside from your existence. We can speak about the 'function' or the multiverse of possible functions of an individual. That's what the individual would be happy to do--i.e. be himself/herself in all possible projections. This is like a fractal unfolding. Loving what you do is not selfish if that includes loving to love other people. And loving other people does not mean that you have to give up your individuality. In many situations you don't quite understand what other people need or you are not supposed to intrude in their lives. In other situations your help can be needed and acceptable.

Originally posted by arpgme

Even if there were a purpose beyond God, there would have to be another purpose to give that purpose meaning, and another purpose to give that purpose meaning, and another purpose to give that purpose meaning.

At some point, we will have to admit that things just exist and purpose is just a perspective - how one chooses to value something.

If you find yourself on a level in a hierarchy of purposes, then somebody else's free will becomes an imperative for you. If, by executing your free will, you decide to drink a glass of water, your hand must obey. In order to exercise the freedom of the Nth level you need subordination on all the levels below it. Or at least a willing cooperation. Thus, the initial relativity of the free will is converted (or translated) into more specific meanings for certain parts of the creation. This must apply to the Universe/Creation in general, unless we believe that we are the ultimate authority in everything. I don't believe we are. I think it is not far fetched to say that right now some billion people would exchange their life for something different had they been given any chance. So they are not free to change the circumstances/context, but are free to find solutions and their individual manifestations within those circumstances/context.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by mrkeen

 

I believe that the ultimate freedom is to love what you do and to do what you love.

Sounds rather selfish to me. Not even "love" a person but a thing or activity.

To answer your own question, is that individual or collective? How does it give your life meaning? I'm not saying that you must have a deep meaning, but this just makes you feel good.

I have found that the rewards of collective thinking, collective getting along, finding meaning and purpose in the collective are seductive and dangerous. Collective certainly presents the individual with the first line of resistance against.... so many things. The collective always seeks to bring the individual under subjection which has been shown time and again through out history not to be a good thing even for the collective. Even the collective has had to relay on the individual for its salvation.

Originally posted by Logarock
I have found that the rewards of collective thinking, collective getting along, finding meaning and purpose in the collective are seductive and dangerous. Collective certainly presents the individual with the first line of resistance against.... so many things. The collective always seeks to bring the individual under subjection which has been shown time and again through out history not to be a good thing even for the collective. Even the collective has had to relay on the individual for its salvation.

Thanks for making this point, but my original question has a slightly different focus. I was talking about collective 'phases' on the spiritual path and the fate of an individual on this path. I came to the conclusion that even if you try to learn your lessons faster and move along, you are bound by the limitations of your time. It is not about individuality or protection of individuality. It is about some sort of 'grade' or 'vision' that people acquire as they progress. For example, many agree that Da Vinci and Tesla were scientists ahead of their time. But the only option they had was to live in their historical time just as everyone else. There was no VIP 'elevator' for them where they would just press a button and move to another age and place. And many things they tried to convey were not understood back then. Could they give any reasonable assessment of their purpose in life if they had not enough feedback? This not only regards recognition, but more importantly the results and effects of one's activity. Human beings want to see the results of their efforts within the scope of their life. But the actual role of a person seems to transcend individual meaning, because even the brightest minds are not given the opportunity to witness the actual effects of their participation. At least as long as the person stays on this 'plane of existence' as a human being on Earth.

reply to post by mrkeen


Tesla seemed to be more at the mercy of the Westinghouses of the world than he was with his time. Westinghouse made sure Tesla never saw the inside of the VIP elevator. The fact that he died broke in his little hotel room, while others flourished financially from his ideas, says just about all we need to know about men born out of time.

Originally posted by mrkeen
I think it is not far fetched to say that right now some billion people would exchange their life for something different had they been given any chance. So they are not free to change the circumstances/context, but are free to find solutions and their individual manifestations within those circumstances/context.

There are some out there whose purpose and goal seems to be that such remains the case.