Edward Snowden said What about the NSA?

This has got to be the biggest non-story of the 21st Century! Guess what the NSA is an intelligence gathering spy agency. And do you know what spy agencies do? Right! They spy on people. And what has Edward Snowden told the world? That the biggest and probably best paid spy agency in the world is doing a lot of spying. Wow! We have all been enlightened. Don't talk on your telephone as the NSA is listening?!?! I don't give a dam! If I have to transmit information that is threatening the security of people in the USA or elsewhere I would worry. But I don't. But some say they are gathering all sorts of data they shouldn't have. But what information should government not have? - too late! you've been giving them this information for 100 years - on your tax returns, government forms of all types, business agreements, etc. Guess what? Like it or not the 'government' knows all it wants about you and more simply by your existing in this world and if a government agency wants to try a little harder to gain information to stop terrorist who want us dead - I say more power to them! And I don't know about you, but I find mad bombers and
terrorist a lot more threatening then egg head spies whose single greatest crime is incompetence!

reply to post by AlienView


I want you to google two things. The first is:
Tsarnaev
The second is:
Tsar Bomba
The first will bring you to links of a man who made a bomb out of a pressure cooker, killing 4 people. He represents the threats of the modern times our security apparatus is fighting against. The second will being you to links of a Soviet hydrogen bomb so powerful, the shockwave from it circled the world 3 times. This represents the threat out security apparatus was up against 50 years ago.
The difference? 50 years ago, our government could not possibly tap or record the phone calls of all Americans to find KGB spies. The technology simply wasn't there yet. Yet they didn't need to in order to overcome the threat of Tsar Bomba. But 50 years later, they can, and claim they need this power, to overcome the threat of tsarnaev.

The issue is, they will ALWAYS do everything they can, and it has nothing to do with the threat profile they are up against, its always turned up to 11. The difference is technology keeps handing them more and more power to spy deeper and deeper, even with a threat profile that's less and less deadly.

That's what Snowden called the "architecture of oppression.", its a system which is getting more and more power over us to protect us from less and less dangerous threats.

Originally posted by AlienView
And I don't know about you, but I find mad bombers and terrorist a lot more threatening then egg head spies whose single greatest crime is incompetence!

You're more afraid of the rumored boogeyman hiding in the closet than you are of the confirmed serial killer standing in the center of the room? The innocence of that belief system is very quaint.

Me, I've never met one of these "terrorist" or "mad bombers." In fact, from the very news agencies that hype the hell out of these boogeymen I've learned that I have better odds at winning the Powerball lottery than I have odds of ever being victimized in a terror attack on US soil. The odds of me being deemed a threat to some alphabet agency's sense of self worth and having them crush my livelihood, steal my possessions, or make life overall quite a paint in the ass is far, far greater.

reply to post by AlienView



You are familiar with these things called laws right? More specifically the constitution... Nsa, government... breaking laws. Should they not be held accountBle for breaking laws like everyone else would be? It doesn't matter if you're hiding something or not. It's ILLEGAL! Get your head out of the sand.

reply to post by tridentblue

If those people in power want to be oppressive [ie. Nazi Germany, the Communist nations, the USSR, etc] they will
be and they didn't need to monitor all phone calls in Nazi Germany or the USSR to maintain their totalitarian regimes.Sure the data being gathered by US intelligence agencies could be used to oppress civil liberties and rights and we should stay vigilant to this possibility BUT I don't find or believe that the gathering of intelligence data is in itself a threat and in a world of the real threat of terrorists it does have justification.

Did you watch the 911 bombing on TV? The Boston Marathon Bombing? How many more? Should we give up and
let the terrorists have their way? Do you think they will protect your civil liberties?

Just imagine how much easier Hitlers campaign against his political enemies would have been, if he had the technology of the NSA. Would of made rounding up those "undesirables" a lot easier. So its all very well to say if you pose no threat to national security, you are at no risk. History has shown things can change quickly.

Look up the Whithouse Coup of 1933 for evidence.

This technology in the wrong hands could cause all types of abuse. Maybe it already has?

Are you really scared of terrorists?

The point of living in a free society, is the acceptance that there are going to be dangers and risks, not just all the good stuff. Do you need a big brother to hold your hand and keep you safe?

reply to post by AlienView


patience is a virtue.

this is only the beginning.

Originally posted by AlienView
reply to post by tridentblue

 

If those people in power want to be oppressive [ie. Nazi Germany, the Communist nations, the USSR, etc] they will
be and they didn't need to monitor all phone calls in Nazi Germany or the USSR to maintain their totalitarian regimes.Sure the data being gathered by US intelligence agencies could be used to oppress civil liberties and rights and we should stay vigilant to this possibility...

What does that mean, stay "vigilant". All the programs are completely secret, all their actions are completely secret, and the only way we know about them is if some one like Snowden leaks them. We have no idea what has been done with these powers, and Snowden leaking more is the only hope we have of knowing. So lets not pretend we're boldly staying on the lookout on the wall, when we all have blindfolds on. They could be systematically murdering people and we wouldn't know, especially with our current MSM, which is indistinguishable from government controlled media:
current.com...
Recently, a once agent of the terribly feared Soviet East German Stasi Secret police came out, saying the current NSA program is what his totalitarian group what have called a "dream". They never had such power:
www.rawstory.com...
The totalitarian states of history have all come down, but they've never had an instrument of control like what's currently being built in the US, and that contributed to their downfall. "Architecture of Oppression" means a system so absolute in its control, that it will never be overcome.

I hate the words ‘terrorist’ and ‘terrorism’. These clowns think they can do whatever they like as long as they justify it by saying it’s to fight terrorism. I don’t buy any of it. They’re the real terrorists. Spying on Joe Blow isn’t going to stop terrorism. It’s just creating another form of it - terror of one’s own government.

Life is so short. It’s hugely disappointing and somewhat loathsome that a very very tiny minority are so hell bent on making the majority’s life so hard, only through their blatant greed and want for power and control. They need to take a long, hard look at themselves and get a grip. Damn cretins.

Originally posted by AlienView
Should we give up and
let the terrorists have their way? Do you think they will protect your civil liberties?

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

I'd say not having every conversation recorded, every move tracked, and every typed thought surveyed is an essential liberty... The terrorists are having their way. Americans are terrorized into believing they should hand over all their freedoms and liberties to the government to keep them safe. We've been told for quite some time it's those freedoms that make the terrorists hate us, correct? Seems like eliminating the same freedoms is a pretty solid way of forfeiting the game to Al Qaida.

I would feel a great deal safer if this data gathering was done by a more reputable organization, in a more reputable country.
I put it somewhere on par with the KGB knowing your every move for easy extortion.

Originally posted by AlienView
Guess what the NSA is an intelligence gathering spy agency. And do you know what spy agencies do? Right! They spy on people. And what has Edward Snowden told the world? That the biggest and probably best paid spy agency in the world is doing a lot of spying.

A valid viewpoint. Although I don't support Civil Rights violations.

I'm honestly surprised at how fast we recovered from this. I'm glad the program got out in the open and under scrutiny. I originally thought Snowden had grabbed some good intel on bankers or politicians, but we'll see.

China does a lot of spying as well, I bet.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6

Originally posted by AlienView
Should we give up and
let the terrorists have their way? Do you think they will protect your civil liberties?

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

I'd say not having every conversation recorded, every move tracked, and every typed thought surveyed is an essential liberty... The terrorists are having their way. Americans are terrorized into believing they should hand over all their freedoms and liberties to the government to keep them safe. We've been told for quite some time it's those freedoms that make the terrorists hate us, correct? Seems like eliminating the same freedoms is a pretty solid way of forfeiting the game to Al Qaida.

Whether we like if or not, the moment we log-on the internet we are in 'the data trackers world'. If not the NSA
or government we are endlessly and ceaselessly being tracked; Data about you is being gathered unceasingly and it is being used. Mostly this is used for the purpose of manipulation of you for the purpose of marketing;
They want your dollars and if the manipulation requires changing your opinion, do you think they care?

Does this interfere with personal liberty - most would probably say no it is part of the business game. Now when it comes to the NSA and other government agencies I would agree if the data is being misused it is a threat to
our liberties and they too should be monitored. However for these intelligence agencies to 'stick their heads in
the sand' and pretend there is no threat is also a violation of government responsibility and the next bomb that goes off in defense of Islam from getting rich and corrupted by Yankee dollars is whose responsibility?
And I still can't see how the gathering of intelligence is necessarily a threat to our freedoms but will admit it can be. I had an augment once with a radio talk show jock about his fear of cities using surveillance cameras in high crime areas. He said this is a violation of civil liberties - I disagreed. In some areas in this country you can't walk
in or out of your home or vehicle at night for fear of attack. Do those police surveillance cameras or the criminal gangs represent the greater threat to civil liberties?

Originally posted by darkbake
China does a lot of spying as well, I bet.

The difference being that China doesn't have access to data from all the major US companies, such as Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Apple, Skype, Facebook...

China doesn't need to mass monitor millions of innocent people, because it is not an out of control regime terrified of its own public.

I can fully expect that China and Russia both have international spying systems, that would make sense and I think most agree that a nation needs such a thing to maintain security and seek an edge over a potential aggressor, but there is a MASSIVE difference in spying on genuine targets for genuine protection of the nation, and spying on millions of innocent people just because you want total control over everyone - not just your enemy nations.

reply to post by Rocker2013


If you remember a few years ago China was attempting to censor the internet - probably still are.

When you accuse American spy agencies of spying on the general public to gain full control I would agree 'IF' you
can prove that is their motive. But in the meantime I'd be more prone to believe Microsoft and an assortment of
computer geeks are trying to take total control - Or maybe it is Microsoft you should be worrying about and not
the NSA - Or is it too late - maybe Microsoft if the real NSA?!?

Originally posted by AlienView
Whether we like if or not, the moment we log-on the internet we are in 'the data trackers world'. If not the NSA
or government we are endlessly and ceaselessly being tracked; Data about you is being gathered unceasingly and it is being used. Mostly this is used for the purpose of manipulation of you for the purpose of marketing;
They want your dollars and if the manipulation requires changing your opinion, do you think they care?

One is a corporation, complying to laws relating to cookies and the information they can gather about you, how it's held, how it's handled, when it's destroyed and what it can be used for. The other is an unelected group without accountability gathering personal information about you without any legal basis and without any public consultation.

Let me break this down for you and explain why a state gathering information on you is completely different to a corporation...

When you visit a site, that is when information gathering begins. There might be a cookie, which identifies your system to that site for future use (such as reminding you of what you looked at before, or offering you ads when you leave and go to other sites using the same ad network).

Note that you also have the opportunity to REFUSE those cookies. This is something you can actively control through the use of cookie blocking.

That corporation or site can see your IP address, the system you might be using (Windows or Mac etc), the device (desktop or mobile), the browser, and then your activity on that site such as time on a certain page or specific pages you visited. Using analytics mining, any site owner can find out the approximate location of a visitor down to city, but this is not even accurate to within five miles or so.

When you buy something, most of the time you are providing your name and address. The encrypted information relating to your credit cards goes through a secure third party and the corp or business doesn't receive that data.

The most a corporation or site can get is your IP, site data, system information and general region, and what you then choose to VOLUNTEER to them.

They are also required to handle that information legally, complying to various domestic and international laws.

Comparing what a corporation is doing with your VOLUNTARILY GIVEN information to what the NSA is doing is like comparing a firecracker to Hiroshima.

The NSA is not collecting volunteered information. It is tapping you from the moment you use any system. It's watching the data flowing through the system whether you are on a corporate/business site or not. It is watching everything flowing from you on the internet to wherever it is going.

It's also listening in to your phone calls, reading your emails, reading your text messages and watching all data whether you have volunteered it or not. It doesn't comply to international or domestic laws (if it did, it wouldn't be secret).

The NSA is then gathering all of this information together, completing a picture of you that no single site or corporation could ever possibly have. The NSA and partners has your name, address, medical history, employment history, tax records, education records, blood type, emails, texts, phone calls, facebook activity, Google search history, Yahoo content, Skype calls, phone book, purchase history, sites you visit, forum posts...

This is NOTHING LIKE a single corporation or website gathering the information on your visit or your system, nothing at all.

The fact that anyone would suggest that this is not really any different shows a complete lack of basic intelligence with regard to technology, and a complete naivete too.

It is impossible to defend the actions of these spying agencies by comparing them to corporate data gathering.

reply to post by tridentblue
I think yo said it perfectly. The threat is much much smaller. These small time terrorists are deadly but, nothing like cold war terror. The government cannot possibly promise your safety. You might get it from a robbery, drunk driver, or any number of thinks before any terrorist event. Please if you want to give away your rights then by all means do so but, don't give away mine or my children or yours.

reply to post by AlienView


If this is a non-story to you, I can imply that there are a myriad of other non-stories related to the executive branch becoming a fascist totalitarian system.

I don't share your trust of fascist totalitarian states.

Originally posted by TheMistro81
reply to post by AlienView

 

You are familiar with these things called laws right? More specifically the constitution... Nsa, government... breaking laws. Should they not be held accountBle for breaking laws like everyone else would be? It doesn't matter if you're hiding something or not. It's ILLEGAL! Get your head out of the sand.

Keep two things in mind here:

1) The Constitution applies to the citizens of the United States and some groups of non-citizens within US borders. You may have a Constitutional complaint when you look at the NSA snooping inside the US, but the NSA does a lot of work out of the US, too.

2) The FISA explicitly permits the the intelligence community in the United States to conduct various forms of intelligence gathering operations outside of the United States.

If you're going to complain about the NSA doing illegal things, clarify what you are talking about. Otherwise you may just be putting your foot in your mouth.