Predetermination and God's Sovereignty

reply to post by HarryTZ


Well, that's what you're here for. To make that determination for yourself. Good luck.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Evil does NOT NEED to exist. There's going to come a time when it's all done away with forever.

Never said it 'needs' to exist; I said it HAS to exist for change. Otherwise, we would be Rod Taylor in the 'Time Machine' trying to understand why Whina; fruit eating her clan and visa versa had go to the occasion siren blasts, to be eaten by the Morlocks. Evil is intrisic to understand the good, without it what strange corruptions would happen without the concept in place. "Well meaning good neighbors accidently kill recent widower by excessive giving of cassoroles, cakes and pies". Too much to eat (in confusion did not take the extra abundance of foodstuffs to the local mission) and commits suicide with all the confusion of "bounty" (his wife never cooked).

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Evil does NOT NEED to exist. There's going to come a time when it's all done away with forever.

Never said it 'needs' to exist; I said it HAS to exist for change. Otherwise, we would be Rod Taylor in the 'Time Machine' trying to understand why Whina; fruit eating her clan and visa versa had go to the occasion siren blasts, to be eaten by the Morlocks. Evil is intrisic to understand the good, without it what strange corruptions would happen without the concept in place. "Well meaning good neighbors accidently kill recent widower by excessive giving of cassoroles, cakes and pies". Too much to eat (in confusion did not take the extra abundance of foodstuffs to the local mission) and commits suicide with all the confusion of "bounty" (his wife never cooked).

edit on 1-7-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

By God ..... you're right.!!!This song needs to be re-wrote to cearly reflect this reality!!!!!!

What the world needs now
Is evil sweet evil
It's the only thing
That should fill up needles

What the world needs now
Is evil sweet evil
No, not just for some
But for everyone

Lord, we don't need another bundt cake,
There are jelly donuts and struedles enough to dine
There are oceans and rivers enough to crap in
Enough to last 'til the end of time

yeh ...Yeh...YEH!!. I'm feelling the evil already...pass the potato salad please.

Originally posted by HarryTZ
I assume that the Christians in this section believe that every event in the universe, including each and every person's actions, thoughts and feelings (and the consumption of the Forbidden Fruit which allowed for sin to exist), has been predestined by God. This would have to include every sin, every wrongdoing, and every moral infraction of each person. And we know that if you sin and don't repent, you go to Hell.
But if God predetermined every sin that each human will perform, why is it fair to condemn him to everlasting torment? If I have absolutely no choice over anything that I do, than I cannot have ever done anything that would justify my going to Hell. That would mean that every man and woman is innocent, because they had no choice in anything that they ever did, thought, or felt. And none of us deserve eternal punishment (not that we would in any case anyway).

Just something to think about.

Here's a quote I saw, that I think is a great summary that answers your question:

God’s will is immutable; therefore, God’s will is always accomplished. The mistake is to reject free will because of this truth. We have already seen that it is God’s will for all to be saved (2 Pt 3:9, cf. 1 Tm 2:4, 1 Jn 2:1-2). But it is also true that some men will not be saved (cf. Mt 7:13, 25:46; Rv 21:8). This implies the freedom to choose to serve God or not (cf. Dt 28:15, Mt 19:17-22). All of this must be understood within God’s predestined plan. How do we reconcile all of this? We conclude that God’s will has an antecedent and a consequent nature. It is God’s antecedent will that all be saved. However, as a consequence of God’s gift of free will, some reject God’s antecedent will. It then becomes God’s consequent will for that soul to go to hell. God’s will is accomplished and our free will, which is revealed in Scripture, is preserved. It is God’s predestined plan for us to have free will (CCC 600).

Source

Originally posted by Rex282
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Rex282
By God ..... you're right.!!!This song needs to be re-wrote to cearly reflect this reality!!!!!!

What the world needs now
Is evil sweet evil
It's the only thing
That should fill up needles

What the world needs now
Is evil sweet evil
No, not just for some
But for everyone

Lord, we don't need another bundt cake,
There are jelly donuts and struedles enough to dine
There are oceans and rivers enough to crap in
Enough to last 'til the end of time

yeh ...Yeh...YEH!!. I'm feelling the evil already...pass the potato salad please.

I would agree, insofar the negative has overtaken the positive for the last 2000 years; if its not equal there is no viable change to the course of human enlightenment. Without balanced forced--that would be destruction of both to create a "new thing" what is the point. The de-evolution of force concentrated creates new matter and intent. One cannot override the other, as then it becomes a warped 'thing'. It has to be perfect in the destruction of each and the birth of 'new'. Creation involves destruction, this is the great problem with fission type detonations, there is no love aspect to the random (through WAR) destruction of civilization. Its childsplay compared to what it really is and entails; the moral responsibility has been lost on the human, the taking of this power always ends with an eventual bad result, humans 0 - the universe constabulatory 1/won and always will. Where does that leave us; in a contstant state of confusion, looking for the Creator that will not give its secrets away, as much as we flail at finding the answers.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Originally posted by Rex282
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Rex282
By God ..... you're right.!!!This song needs to be re-wrote to cearly reflect this reality!!!!!!

What the world needs now
Is evil sweet evil
It's the only thing
That should fill up needles

What the world needs now
Is evil sweet evil
No, not just for some
But for everyone

Lord, we don't need another bundt cake,
There are jelly donuts and struedles enough to dine
There are oceans and rivers enough to crap in
Enough to last 'til the end of time

yeh ...Yeh...YEH!!. I'm feelling the evil already...pass the potato salad please.

I would agree, insofar the negative has overtaken the positive for the last 2000 years; if its not equal there is no viable change to the course of human enlightenment. Without balanced forced--that would be destruction of both to create a "new thing" what is the point. The de-evolution of force concentrated creates new matter and intent. One cannot override the other, as then it becomes a warped 'thing'. It has to be perfect in the destruction of each and the birth of 'new'. Creation involves destruction, this is the great problem with fission type detonations, there is no love aspect to the random (through WAR) destruction of civilization. Its childsplay compared to what it really is and entails; the moral responsibility has been lost on the human, the taking of this power always ends with an eventual bad result, humans 0 - the universe constabulatory 1/won and always will. Where does that leave us; in a contstant state of confusion, looking for the Creator that will not give its secrets away, as much as we flail at finding the answers.

edit on 2-7-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I apologize I was only kidding around and I thought you were also and this thread was in dire need of some levity....so thank you.

However, I don't agree that the dualism of good and evil is a necessary evil.Good ..I'll call it perfection for lack of a precise term...does not need evil..imperfection ...to exist.It is not dualistic.Our experience can only perceive both as non exclusive because it is colored in imperfection.Therefore it leads us to the false conclusion of dualism.However just because we've never "experienced" pigs fly doesn't mean they won't or can't...it may well just be out of our realm of experience but lack of that proof or perception does not prove dualism.

The double slit experiment of quantum physics is as close as we can come to perceiving a non dualistic realm where there are infinite possibilities governed by properties that aren't perceived as dualism.The electrons can be observed as either particles or waves with no fixed formula except the experience of observation.

So can good exist without evil ....I have no doubt it can but the realm of observation we are in doesn't reveal what or how.In one sense... it's best not to look either.So to speak...don't tell the left hand what the right is doing just BE(not to be metaphysical ) however that's just one way I can explain my perception of it I can't help anyone with their perception..Einstein was right .There is only Now..no past nor future all perception is now.Which again leads away from dualism.

Yes I am aware of the evil (imperfection) of this realm.My neck isn't long enough to bury in the sand nor has that inclination HOWEVER.I glory in neither good nor evil.I know that both exists but they are not mutually dependent on each other to exist. HOWEVER evil(imperfection) DOES "need"(not the best word..) good(perfection) to be perceived....the opposite is not true.

The bottom line to dwell on observing with our left hand what the right is doing makes the electron particle appear.The waves observation has different properties that can't be predicted.Einstein had his spooky ...this has a bit of good spooky to it.... but for the present now..it is still a mystery...and very well could always be.My suggestion ..don't observe it ... particles will abound and dualism ugly head will be reared and be painted mostly with evil....not MY preferred nowness...

Originally posted by Rex282
Originally posted by Rex282
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Rex282
I apologize I was only kidding around and I thought you were also and this thread was in dire need of some levity....so thank you.However, I don't agree that the dualism of good and evil is a necessary evil.Good ..I'll call it perfection for lack of a precise term...does not need evil..imperfection ...to exist.It is not dualistic.Our experience can only perceive both as non exclusive because it is colored in imperfection.Therefore it leads us to the false conclusion of dualism.However just because we've never "experienced" pigs fly doesn't mean they won't or can't...it may well just be out of our realm of experience but lack of that proof or perception does not prove dualism.

No apologies needed, Humor, YES ALWAYS GOOD. I love irreverence, as much as I love Chaos within threads, (makes them expand/grow or contract disapear). The point of perfection is in the achevieving of it correct? Does that not continually change, as in the quality of it becomes more and more refined? What if that ultimate perfection is a God Concept (not that I am in the fan club, as I am more of a booster). The only reason for duality to exist is to refine the intent, whether for the perfection or the opposite; you are saying the same thing with your statement 'experience can percieve both as non-exclusive'. Personal experience that is individualized "I WILL SEE PIGS FLY" once I can get them winged and feathered.

Rex282
The double slit experiment of quantum physics is as close as we can come to perceiving a non dualistic realm where there are infinite possibilities governed by properties that aren't perceived as dualism.The electrons can be observed as either particles or waves with no fixed formula except the experience of observation.
So can good exist without evil ....I have no doubt it can but the realm of observation we are in doesn't reveal what or how.In one sense... it's best not to look either.So to speak...don't tell the left hand what the right is doing just BE(not to be metaphysical ) however that's just one way I can explain my perception of it I can't help anyone with their perception..Einstein was right .There is only Now..no past nor future all perception is now.Which again leads away from dualism.

I percieve all subatomic matter as waves, and charged particals can be in more than one place at the same time. Without evil there is no definition of good. There is only now, but as soon as you recognise it before you can grasp it, its the past, taking only nanoseconds. Time is only linear upon this planet. Its nonexistant in the nonmaterial dimensions as everything happens at the same moment, past present, future all happening at the same 'time'.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Originally posted by Rex282
Originally posted by Rex282
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Rex282
I apologize I was only kidding around and I thought you were also and this thread was in dire need of some levity....so thank you.However, I don't agree that the dualism of good and evil is a necessary evil.Good ..I'll call it perfection for lack of a precise term...does not need evil..imperfection ...to exist.It is not dualistic.Our experience can only perceive both as non exclusive because it is colored in imperfection.Therefore it leads us to the false conclusion of dualism.However just because we've never "experienced" pigs fly doesn't mean they won't or can't...it may well just be out of our realm of experience but lack of that proof or perception does not prove dualism.

No apologies needed, Humor, YES ALWAYS GOOD. I love irreverence, as much as I love Chaos within threads, (makes them expand/grow or contract disapear). The point of perfection is in the achevieving of it correct? Does that not continually change, as in the quality of it becomes more and more refined? What if that ultimate perfection is a God Concept (not that I am in the fan club, as I am more of a booster). The only reason for duality to exist is to refine the intent, whether for the perfection or the opposite; you are saying the same thing with your statement 'experience can percieve both as non-exclusive'. Personal experience that is individualized "I WILL SEE PIGS FLY" once I can get them winged and feathered.

Rex282
The double slit experiment of quantum physics is as close as we can come to perceiving a non dualistic realm where there are infinite possibilities governed by properties that aren't perceived as dualism.The electrons can be observed as either particles or waves with no fixed formula except the experience of observation.
So can good exist without evil ....I have no doubt it can but the realm of observation we are in doesn't reveal what or how.In one sense... it's best not to look either.So to speak...don't tell the left hand what the right is doing just BE(not to be metaphysical ) however that's just one way I can explain my perception of it I can't help anyone with their perception..Einstein was right .There is only Now..no past nor future all perception is now.Which again leads away from dualism.

Humor on Garth!!

I percieve all subatomic matter as waves, and charged particals can be in more than one place at the same time. Without evil there is no definition of good. There is only now, but as soon as you recognise it before you can grasp it, its the past, taking only nanoseconds. Time is only linear upon this planet. Its nonexistant in the nonmaterial dimensions as everything happens at the same moment, past present, future all happening at the same 'time'.

edit on 3-7-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Humor on Garth!!

My basic point is ...The Truth is not at the mercy of dualism to exist.That for perfection to exist there MUST NOT be imperfection. That is putting the slit before the electron.Perception doesn't cause the electron to become a particle or a wave ....perfection did....The designer.The creator of all is the cause behind all causes.Our perception of those causes is very ,very limited and dualism is the brown colored glasses it looks through.

Conjecture has it's valid points just as a blind man pointed in the general direction of an object shooting a billion bullets at it one has a chance of hitting it.However it would not be a perception of dualism choice but of causation.The reality is we have no way of knowing what something is going to happen 100%.It just has higher odds.The double slit experiment shows they are pretty low in general.

If someone believes they live in a dualistic world who am I to convince them otherwise.It will just solidify the argument to them and make them slip further into darkness...which of course is the reason for that perspective.To blind not illuminate.To cause a delusion.Anesthesia does something similar.I think most would prefer to be under when having open heart surgery.Dualism is more like that.A way to reconcile the chaos and entropy so they can sleep at night.Hey ... whatever gets them through the night.But morning will come.And dualism will disappear into the misty cloud it came in on.It is an impossible concept to objectify to those that believe it.It is in the cogs of their machine.

Good must have evil ....God must have a Satan...rock must have a roll...on that Note I think I'll listen to some Jeff Beck....His rock rolls.

Predetermination is a tough topic. I'm not going to say it doesn't mean what it means. But this is the way I see it. Maybe things are only predestined because God saw all things before hand. In other words, before God put the final stamp on all creation He saw all possible outcomes of every choice that His creation would make, including the fall of Satan. Now since He saw all possible outcomes He must have concluded that these outcomes are what's best for His glory.

It's like we're in a movie playing the part we are suppose to play. The problem is, none of us know how the movie will end for us as an individual..

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker
Predetermination is a tough topic. I'm not going to say it doesn't mean what it means. But this is the way I see it. Maybe things are only predestined because God saw all things before hand. In other words, before God put the final stamp on all creation He saw all possible outcomes of every choice that His creation would make, including the fall of Satan. Now since He saw all possible outcomes He must have concluded that these outcomes are what's best for His glory.

It's like we're in a movie playing the part we are suppose to play. The problem is, none of us know how the movie will end for us as an individual..

We are in a movie starring ourselves, we just dont realize it even though we pay a premium ticket price to see ourselves acting out the human dream/dramarama. ITS THERE, THE MESSAGE. We are play acting our own scenarios to effect a soul growth particular to our individualization. Pre-destination is up to the individual, and how far and fast you want to grow (you chose to be human--THAT IS THE HARDEST vision quest ever as a developmental tool-75% failure rate, and back to standing in line hoping the show will not have been sold out). Next viewing for you 300 years. Its an impossible situation, but is a real one that no one has considered. You saw all possible outcomes and is why you chose the specific one to suit your soul growth. If it means you are to be murdered in this current lifetime, it progresses your soul/you probably have a contract with someone you murdered in the past. This is how it works; some call it Karmic Payback I call it specific INTENT.

Originally posted by Rex282
Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Originally posted by Rex282
Originally posted by Rex282
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Rex282
Humor on Garth!!
My basic point is ...The Truth is not at the mercy of dualism to exist.That for perfection to exist there MUST NOT be imperfection. That is putting the slit before the electron.Perception doesn't cause the electron to become a particle or a wave ....perfection did....The designer.The creator of all is the cause behind all causes.Our perception of those causes is very ,very limited and dualism is the brown colored glasses it looks through.
Conjecture has it's valid points just as a blind man pointed in the general direction of an object shooting a billion bullets at it one has a chance of hitting it.However it would not be a perception of dualism choice but of causation.The reality is we have no way of knowing what something is going to happen 100%.It just has higher odds.The double slit experiment shows they are pretty low in general.

Still defining truth and it shouldnt be at the mercy of anything. I dont disagree with the relevance of your statement as is beautiful and eloquent in expression. The designer is not blind, not a sharpshooter either; just a hope filled Creator that would like to see something shotgunned at barn door (idea) that might stick and survive through the next winter season, to be recoated in "Barn Red OXIDE" newer better toxic paint idea. No one has any idea about the future or the causation of the past, (I have my suspicions) it is better to listen to some ANY kind of Music Jeff Beck? yes -For me right now "Live".

Rex282
If someone believes they live in a dualistic world who am I to convince them otherwise.It will just solidify the argument to them and make them slip further into darkness...which of course is the reason for that perspective.To blind not illuminate.To cause a delusion.Anesthesia does something similar.I think most would prefer to be under when having open heart surgery.Dualism is more like that.A way to reconcile the chaos and entropy so they can sleep at night.Hey ... whatever gets them through the night.But morning will come.And dualism will disappear into the misty cloud it came in on.It is an impossible concept to objectify to those that believe it.It is in the cogs of their machine.

I was never taught about any fairness of a dualistic world. I think most are taught through scripture, dogma, "there exists good and evil" and it is best to error on the side of good (WITH NO EXPLAINATION) as to why. I wish everyone to exist in light as to be enlightenned. I despise the dark that is blinding, I want to get through nightfall and awaken to the most impossible concept, I have objectified myself as God itself living breathing and therefore can throw the monkey wrench into the outlandish cogs that turn the LIE regarding Mankind its creation, who accomplished it and who God actually is; I might as well say it as far as pre-deterimination exists; once the human accepts itself as THE EXPRESSION OF GOD FINITE/INFINANT the GAME changes the paradym will shift to a positive outcome you can only begin to see outcomes unparalleled.