who decides what is Indoctrination?

Originally posted by Rex282
Yahoshua(Jesus) said some very simple and infinitely complex statements.The one that relates to this is...the kingdom of God(Kingdom of the heavens is the same thing..it is a realm) COMES WITHOUT OBSERVATION...it is neither here nor there but is IN you midst.

That sounds like hopeful mysticism and of course hardly anyone believes it.

Amen.

Hopeful mysticism is having faith that there is something better waiting for you if you simply have faith in that which can take you there. There's no work involved. Just faith. It's like driving to Vegas in search of that pot of gold without bothering to look at gas gauge. You're not getting there on fumes and you're not getting to heaven on faith. You have to fill the gas tank up. You have to do good by yourself and other people everyday, and that in turn will give you a more positive outlook and peace of mind. Try it, and then say I'm delusional.

Sorry folks (Not you Rex) but that's the only "heaven" there is.

Originally posted by Akragon
I will not ever tell anyone what they "must" believe... Nor do I offer any threat towards those who agree or disagree with my position on said issue

Which is a lot better behavior than I've seen from a lot of 'religious' people (christian, muslim, whatever).

Would a child who was not brought up religiously ever imagine the notion of a place like hell? Of course not, it's a very unnatural teaching made up by men that is only used to convert people.

To teach someone something so unnatural at an early age to the effect of them being afraid of thinking outside of a certain box their whole life is child abuse. They should be allowed to make their own decisions, not be force fed eternal damnation scenarios until they start believing it.

If a certain religion is the right one, they should find their own way to it, right?

reply to post by tinhattribunal

before indoctrinating any child into any religion, the above should be read and understood.

a question to you.
What if whatever you posted is intelligently designed indoctrination to take people away from religion and ultimately from God?

Btw i have no love for theocrats or mind manipulators. I see them as abusers of the natural need of humans for spirituality. I however don't agree that these people "made" religions, they did try and suceeded to abuse them a lot.

reply to post by maes2

omitting the role of wisdom in monotheistic religions can be dangerous.

couldn't agree enough with that.
Religion is not blind sheep lead to slaughter by a wolf in sheep skin as people assume. People have however stopped "thinking" and let their spirituality in the hands of undeserving leaders believing that they will get salvation if they just blindly follow. Qur'an talks about it and criticizes it intensely.

67:10
And they will say, "If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze."

reply to post by Taupin Desciple

Generic teachings vs.scare tactics using the promise of death. Common sense should tell you which is indoctrination and which isn't.

Yes, i agree.
Just teaching about "hell" is not indoctrination and i did say that in my OP.
But indoctrination can be done in many ways, scare tactics is just one.
What about subliminal indoctrination? What about putting kids in an evironment that is very anti-religious and let time slowly change their minds.

You are talking about very obvious indoctrination but i hope you will agree that it will take much more common sense to identify the almost invisible indoctrination to which people are subjected and which is mostly anti-religion/anti-God.

reply to post by Rex282

No....teaching a child that monsters under the bed are not real is telling them the truth.That is not (invoking) an "untruth".The doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell is the most heinous doctrine man has conceived.It is not only in complete contradiction of the scriptures it is also in opposition to Gods character.

monsters under bed can be verified but nobody knows the reality of hell.
You are just saying your opinion/belief and i am not going to discuss it.
How do you know what God's Character is? The same scriptures also talks about hell so how you can hand pick things you like and discard ones you don't.

reply to post by FlyersFan

That question tells me that you have probably been indoctrinated to believe in hell. (and yes ... I believe there is some kind of hell as well .. but not the fire and brimstone you think of)

how strange that you think that i have been probably indoctrinated when you also believe in hell!
Thats exactly the point of this thread, to question the idea of who can label another as indoctrinated and how odd it is that indoctrination is more used to describe what people in religions do but yet propogating Godlessness is labeled "enlightment"!
I am objecting to the bigotry of use of words which in itself can be used as a tool for indoctrination.

a good example is
1st they were terrorists then they became Islamic terrorists then just Islamists/jihadists and maybe soon the word muslim would be equated with terrorists(for some the indoctrination is actually complete)

Critical thinking
would disprove Muhammads claim of heavenly visions.

Critical thinking would also support that most likely Jesus pbuh survived rather than being dead and alive again.
Lets not go there
i am not questioning your faith and you don't apply critical thinking to other people's faith and spare yours otherwise its called bigotry! Also i don't want this thread to become a repeatitive fruitless debate.

Common sense and critical thinking kill indoctrination.
Unfortunately ... those are things
severely lacking in the world.

i agree completely.

reply to post by luciddream

If a parent teaches their kids all religion and their good/bad i would not call that indoctrination. Thats education. Indoctrination is not only for religion, you can get indoctrinated in many other ways.

yes, kids should get educated about all major religions unbiasedly.

Yes, Indoctrination is a very broad term.

reply to post by Akragon

Nope... Im stating my belief which
comes from simple logic... A loving Father would not torture his
child... Im not even a parent and i
know this... Yet i do not force anyone to take my
stance on the issue... People will
believe whatever they will... I will not ever tell anyone what they
"must" believe... Nor do I offer any
threat towards those who agree or
disagree with my position on said
issue

NO.. you belief comes from some assumptions and simple logic.
You are assuming a certain Character for God. Its faith there. Faith in a scripture that gives you certain information that you believe to be true.

You cannot threaten people because it would be conflicting your own belief and you are a person with integrity

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Would a child who was not brought up religiously ever imagine the notion of a place like hell? Of course not, it's a very unnatural teaching made up by men that is only used to convert people.

To teach someone something so unnatural at an early age to the effect of them being afraid of thinking outside of a certain box their whole life is child abuse. They should be allowed to make their own decisions, not be force fed eternal damnation scenarios until they start believing it.

If a certain religion is the right one, they should find their own way to it, right?

hell is actually a very logical teaching, its basically an exagerated consequence of bad deeds. I guess you believe in karma. Hell is just extreme karma.
Kids understand that actions have consequence, the idea that bad actions in life will have no consequence in afterlife is an unnatural and illogical teaching.
So educating kids about heaven and hell is not indoctrination as many posters have pointed out however hammering the idea that hell is a man made belief in their heads is indoctrination.

The ability or inability to imagine a certain thing does not constitute a proof for or against it.

I have agreed that kids should be allowed to make up their own mind when they are old enough, not really at 18 as its just an arbitary age limit but when they are capable of thinking critically.
I am just objecting to scaring them away from certain religions because they have an idea of hell in them and in effect limiting the choices of the kids to hell-less religions.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Rex282

 

No....teaching a child that monsters under the bed are not real is telling them the truth.That is not (invoking) an "untruth".The doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell is the most heinous doctrine man has conceived.It is not only in complete contradiction of the scriptures it is also in opposition to Gods character.

monsters under bed can be verified but nobody knows the reality of hell.
You are just saying your opinion/belief and i am not going to discuss it.
How do you know what God's Character is? The same scriptures also talks about hell so how you can hand pick things you like and discard ones you don't.

edit on 27-6-2013 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

It's good to see you have exposed your agenda .You are not asking an honest question to seek the Truth you are just pushing your agenda.

As for how do I know the character of God..very easily ...I know God.

As for your indoctrination in the belief of hell.You are very wrong, it is not in the Scriptures .First hell is translated from a few words in the OT the Hebrew Sheol and in the NT the Greek hades,Gehenna and Tartaros.Hades is the most common word to translate into hell.It means the grave, the realm of the dead,the realm of imperception.
It IS NOT a place and especially a place of eternal torture and punishment by God.That is blasphemous.You may believe that the "fear of Hell" is the Love of God but again you are very ,very wrong because you know neither the scriptures nor God if you do.

The scriptures Clearly write what is the Truth for those with ears to hear.Yahoshua(who you call Jesus) is the savior of ALL mankind.His name(in the name of) means... Yahweh IS salvation.He isn't saving a few religious indoctrinated people he is saving ALL.Here are just a few of the many scriptures that completely contradict the false doctrine of men of the mythical pagan hell.

1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Philp 2:9 Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a NAME [Yahoshua... Gods salvation] which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus[Yahoshua] EVERY knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL will come to repentance."

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN."

Luke 2:10..Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people."

1 John 4:14 We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior[Yahoshua] of the WORLD."

1 John 2:2 He [Yahoshua] "is" the sacrifice for our sins, and NOT for ours only but ALSO for the WHOLE world

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him NOT: for I came NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to SAVE the world

1 Tim. 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

2 Cor. 5:14 Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for ALL, and therefore ALL died."

Please show how these scriptures support the doctrine of hell.Yahoshua is the GOOD news of salvation (deliverance from the valley of the shadow of death) not HELL.....that is the foolishness of men.

reply to post by logical7

NO.. you belief comes from some assumptions and simple logic.
You are assuming a certain Character for God. Its faith there. Faith in a scripture that gives you certain information that you believe to be true.

I got some news for ya brother... that belief does not come from scripture...

It comes from the heart... which is where God resides within the temple of man...

One can not consider a parent who would torture his child to be loving... that's not an assumption...

That's a fact...

Originally posted by logical7
What about putting kids in an evironment that is very anti-religious and let time slowly change their minds.

What about putting kids in an environment that is very pro-religion, and that religion is absurd?

You know ... like putting them in an environment that teaches that God supposedly sent an angel
to a murdering thief and told him vast cosmic secrets and wanted him to start a religion and spread
it at the point of a sword.

Originally posted by logical7
how strange that you think that i have been probably indoctrinated when you also believe in hell!

I believe in A hell ... not the hell you are thinking of.

reply to post by Rex282

As for your indoctrination in the belief of hell.You are very wrong, it is not in the Scriptures .First hell is translated from a few words in the OT the Hebrew Sheol and in the NT the Greek hades,Gehenna and Tartaros.Hades is the most common word to translate into hell.It means the grave, the realm of the dead,the realm of imperception. It IS NOT a place and especially a place of eternal torture and punishment by God.That is blasphemous.You may believe that the "fear of Hell" is the Love of God but again you are very ,very wrong because you know neither the scriptures nor God if you do.

we are trying to figure out who among us or maybe both of us are "indoctrinated"
I would again say that i don't want to discuss your "belief" or the scripture you read and what it says or what you interpret from it.
Your religion does not have a hell? Fine. good for you, although i don't think that in your religion people who don't accept your creed are also going to do fine in afterlife. So there must be some kind of hell for them.
I asked a simple question in OP and i think you have given your opinion but now you are pushing your belief, indoctrinated people do that. You may love your belief and you have full right to think it as true but this thread is for what i asked in OP.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

NO.. you belief comes from some assumptions and simple logic.
You are assuming a certain Character for God. Its faith there. Faith in a scripture that gives you certain information that you believe to be true.

I got some news for ya brother... that belief does not come from scripture...

It comes from the heart... which is where God resides within the temple of man...

One can not consider a parent who would torture his child to be loving... that's not an assumption...

That's a fact...

i know the belief comes from the heart Akragon. That belief however is wordless, it does not tell us about How God is or heaven and hell etc.

The problem with assuming God as just a Parent is that you fail to see the whole picture.
Yes, a parent cannot torture his own child but what if that child has kill another child whom the parent loved equally?
Forgiving the 1st is balant injustice to the 2nd. Right?
If the 2nd child shows remorse and repents then sure God is Forgiving but if not..?
God is sure more Merciful that even a parent but isn't God also Absolutely Just? So unless you believe the christian doctrine that God killed Himself for sins of all and in that way took care of His Absolute Justice then you still have to include Absolute Justice in the equation and not just Loving Parent.

reply to post by logical7

That belief however is wordless, it does not tell us about How God is or heaven and hell etc.

IF we've made it this far through out time... what makes you believe anyone could be destined for "hell" this time around?

The problem with assuming God as just a Parent is that you fail to see the whole picture.
Yes, a parent cannot torture his own child but what if that child has kill another child whom the parent loved equally?
Forgiving the 1st is balant injustice to the 2nd. Right?

So an eye for an eye is better then to "turn the other cheek"?

If the 2nd child shows remorse and repents then sure God is Forgiving but if not..?
God is sure more Merciful that even a parent but isn't God also Absolutely Just? So unless you believe the christian doctrine that God killed Himself for sins of all and in that way took care of His Absolute Justice then you still have to include Absolute Justice in the equation and not just Loving Parent.

Im sorry I don't understand what you just said...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

who decides what is Indoctrination?,

Those being indoctrinated don't see it ... until they manage to escape indoctrination.
So who decides what is indoctrination? Those who haven't been indoctrinated.

So , did you see Vietnam , Iraq and Afghanistan war ?

Or

You just insist that all Muslims are indoctrinated ?

Did you see 9/11 , patriot act , Boston bombing , TSA , war on terrorism , .... or you think that other nations are more brainwashed and canalized.

I have studied about education system in your country. It is the best canalizing kind of education system which does not allow people to think integrated and comprehensive.

Your TV popular culture is also unique kind of canalizing minds and hearts of the people.

You can not even stand together for one week to do something you want.

You are the most separated nation and canalized people on the planet.

And whenever you talk about doctrine , I just remember how you are indoctrinated that secular state is the fair state and Islam is evil.

I know that these sentences can wake up a mountain , but you are heavier.

reply to post by FlyersFan

What about putting kids in an environment that is very pro-religion, and that religion is absurd?

i cannot prevent parents/grandparents from taking kids to church or sending them to sunday school!

I believe in A hell ... not the hell you
are thinking of.

so now we will have to discuss which kind of hell is an indoctrination and which is a good one!!
A good Hell!! Interesting!

There many forms of what you call indoctrination. All children are indoctrinated in one form or another by their parents. Who are you or I to say that the way one brings up a child is any of yours or my business? Many would say that religious indoctrination is evil and many would say no religious education is evil. Some would say that teaching a child about what they the parents believes is abuse to what standard should that be measured against? It seems like many people want to make it their business of how other people should raise their children. I find it rather hypocritical when population control advocates have two or three of their own children but want to control how many children other folks should have. And I find it hypocritical when social service people want to control how you bring up your child when they themselves are childless.