who decides what is Indoctrination?

Just a simple question to people who say that teaching kids about God and Heaven n Hell is Indoctrination and its harmful for them.
If there is an afterlife as even some atheist believe and there is a Hell then how harmful the indoctrination of kids that "there is no Hell" will turn out to be?

So to protect kids from an observable "possible" harm(belief in Heaven n Hell is not harmful if its not abused by power-hungry religious leaders and people don't believe things blindly) "possibly" the eternity of those kids is being put in danger?

I am trying to put things from the perpective of a different but equally possible reality.

Discuss.

who decides what is Indoctrination?,

Those being indoctrinated don't see it ... until they manage to escape indoctrination.
So who decides what is indoctrination? Those who haven't been indoctrinated.

reply to post by logical7


Its harmful because it teaches children to grow up living in fear of "Gods wrath" according to a book written by men thousands of years ago...

Literally forcing them to believe whatever the leaders of that religion tell them...

In my view to teach no that word isn't right...In my view to make children believe in any religion when they have not been given access to all the other possibilities including other religious views etc is abuse.
No child has the capability to make up their own mind on this issue until they are much older.
Children can ask what views parents has about God etc but they should not be forced into any Religion.

You think things like Jesus camp are right?




and this is ok?



Let kids grow up and make up their own minds....If your religion is right they will follow it right?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

who decides what is Indoctrination?,

Those being indoctrinated don't see it ... until they manage to escape indoctrination.
So who decides what is indoctrination? Those who haven't been indoctrinated.

let me give an example to make you understand my point.
Are you unindoctrinated out of a conservative christian belief or indoctrinated into a liberal secular belief?

I think indoctrination in this case is all a question of setting and intent.

In a Catholic or Muslim school? It's not indoctrination. It's religious studies as part of the larger package of learning.

In public school? Either of the above is wildly out of place indoctrination to bring people who didn't choose to be a part of it, into lines of thinking for specific belief systems.

Then again....So are things like the counter-points to religion in Public School when taught beyond the merit of each issue and where it fits there....but with an edge meant to counter the community based Faith side. Evolution taught in Biology class is appropriate. It fits to topic and would be alarming to see left out. In other classes? That subject itself becomes indoctrination, IMO.

All about place and timing, IMO. Everything has it's place.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Its harmful because it teaches children to grow up living in fear of "Gods wrath" according to a book written by men thousands of years ago...

Literally forcing them to believe whatever the leaders of that religion tell them...

i want to clear up that i am not promoting that kids should be forced to believe a specific religion when they are kids.
The should decide when they are old enough.
I am talking above reverse indoctrination that there is no hell leading the kids to discard the idea when they grow up!!

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Its harmful because it teaches children to grow up living in fear of "Gods wrath" according to a book written by men thousands of years ago...

Literally forcing them to believe whatever the leaders of that religion tell them...

i want to clear up that i am not promoting that kids should be forced to believe a specific religion when they are kids.
The should decide when they are old enough.
I am talking above reverse indoctrination that there is no hell leading the kids to discard the idea when they grow up!!

I see that as a positive... Belief in hell is nothing more then a scare tactic used for the very subject you're posting about....

DO you think a belief that hell exists leads one to being a better person?

I do not... That belief leads to fear... superstition, and blindly following the person who claims to know the correct path to salvation from said mythical firey pit

now what did Jesus say about the blind following the blind?

since you know the gospels...

reply to post by boymonkey74

Let kids grow up and make up their own minds....If your religion is right they will follow it right?

sure
i am talking about putting them off from certain ideas in religion (eg. Hell) by teaching them as kids that its not real or a man-made story etc.

What you say about that?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I think indoctrination in this case is all a question of setting and intent.

In a Catholic or Muslim school? It's not indoctrination. It's religious studies as part of the larger package of learning.

In public school? Either of the above is wildly out of place indoctrination to bring people who didn't choose to be a part of it, into lines of thinking for specific belief systems.

Then again....So are things like the counter-points to religion in Public School when taught beyond the merit of each issue and where it fits there....but with an edge meant to counter the community based Faith side. Evolution taught in Biology class is appropriate. It fits to topic and would be alarming to see left out. In other classes? That subject itself becomes indoctrination, IMO.

All about place and timing, IMO. Everything has it's place.

i think you do get what i mean, and i do agree with your reply.

reply to post by Akragon

Belief in hell is nothing more then a scare tactic used for the very subject you're posting about.... DO you think a belief that hell exists leads one to being a better person? I do not... That belief leads to fear... superstition, and blindly following the person who claims to know the correct path to salvation from said mythical firey pit

thats your belief Akragon and i am not going to argue over it. I am talking of a neutral platform.

Are you sure hell does not exist? Are you not imposing you belief if you teach a kid that? isn't that the definition of indoctrination?

Indoctrination is the process of imparting, not teaching, doctrine in an authoritative manner in which the person or people being subjugated to it cannot, or is told should not, question or analyze it. In other words, children or the feeble minded.

To force your body onto someone's else's is rape. To force your ideologies on someone is indoctrination. Mental rape.

So who decides what is indoctrination? Anyone with common sense.

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
Indoctrination is the process of imparting, not teaching, doctrine in an authoritative manner in which the person or people being subjugated to it cannot, or is told should not, question or analyze it. In other words, children or the feeble minded.

To force your body onto someone's else's is rape. To force your ideologies on someone is indoctrination. Mental rape.

So who decides what is indoctrination? Anyone with common sense.

you did put what indoctrination is very umm.. effectively.

No just common sense is not enough, its also the side who is judging.

So a simpler question do you think a non believer in hell teaching kids that hell is just a myth comes under indoctrination?

The methodology of religious mind control is what is known to modern psychologists as "operant conditioning": altering behavior and mental programming by positive and negative reinforcement on the physical and sensory level.
But Theocrats (gangs of disenbodied spirits) strengthen this conditioning by transmitting ideas and emotions directly into people's subconscious minds by telepathy. And they use people's own psychic powers to control other members of the congregation.

So there is a sort of "psychic chain reaction" that occurs, as every member of the congregation influences the emotions and thinking of every other member, like a box of matches catching fire or an atomic chain reaction.
This process creates a "religious group mind."
This state of religious ecstasy generates large amounts of psychic energy. Part of that energy may be directly absorbed by any Theocratic spirits present, but most of it is diverted back into the physical mind of the members of the congregation to indoctrinate them with whatever the Theocrats want them to believe or feel or do. This is the essence of religious mind control.

People being controlled by this method enjoy it more than anything else in life. It is highly addictive.
Theocrats make the religious mind-control process as addictive as possible to enslave believers.
The whole vicious circle of sin, guilt, and forgiveness was deliberately designed to create a cycle of addiction that is almost impossible to break.

,,, now how can this be good?

War in Heaven - summary

War in Heaven - complete book

before indoctrinating any child into any religion,
the above should be read and understood.

reply to post by logical7

I think the problem is that people have always a bad memory of Medieval. they think that there is no relation between monotheistic religions and wisdom. existence of God and the (heaven and hell) and even the concept of prophecy have logical reasons. they are the principles and a religious person can not mimic them.
omitting the role of wisdom in monotheistic religions can be dangerous. Koran is full of logical rebuttals. the first step is wisdom. I think such a bad attitude towards religion is because of bad clerics. those who are not sure about what they are speaking of !
certainly teaching homosexuality is an indoctrination ! they are making a gay army with gay soldiers !!

Originally posted by logical7

So a simpler question do you think a non believer in hell teaching kids that hell is just a myth comes under indoctrination?

No.

Let me clarify what I see as common sense is in this regard. The average church doesn't indoctrinate if they are passive with their message. They teach. Their message, by virtue of their tenets, has to include the part about hell. It's just part of the package. Most churches tell you that you will go to hell if you don't accept Jesus as Lord. Next Sunday, they will turn around and tell you that God forgives all simply out of general principle. That's just what he does. With mixed messages like that, most churches don't have the time to pound home the hell-fire and brimstone.The congregation is confused enough at that point, in-you-face scare tactics would just push them out the door in search of a simpler alternative.

The radicals of Westboro for example indoctrinate. They are very adamant, outspoken and dictatorial about how they get their message across. They instill fear in children and adults. They make it clear to everyone that if you question or disagree with anything said, that if the devil doesn't get you first, the swamp in the Bayou will. And by and large it works because the I.Q. of the average parishioner is nothing to brag about.

Generic teachings vs.scare tactics using the promise of death. Common sense should tell you which is indoctrination and which isn't.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
Indoctrination is the process of imparting, not teaching, doctrine in an authoritative manner in which the person or people being subjugated to it cannot, or is told should not, question or analyze it. In other words, children or the feeble minded.

To force your body onto someone's else's is rape. To force your ideologies on someone is indoctrination. Mental rape.

So who decides what is indoctrination? Anyone with common sense.

you did put what indoctrination is very umm.. effectively.

No just common sense is not enough, its also the side who is judging.

So a simpler question do you think a non believer in hell teaching kids that hell is just a myth comes under indoctrination?

No....teaching a child that monsters under the bed are not real is telling them the truth.That is not (invoking) an "untruth".The doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell is the most heinous doctrine man has conceived.It is not only in complete contradiction of the scriptures it is also in opposition to Gods character.

The core reason anyone believes it is true is because they have been indoctrinated.It is not innate.We don't "intuit" it like the dangers of other things that are harmful....to tell the The truth of its myth would be an inoculation(though not foolproof) because "adults" are the perpetrators of this insidious lie.

I know you didn't ask however I will say it because it is equally as relative to The Truth.I'd say same thing of the doctrine of"heaven".Though not in the same way as hell.Heaven(more accurately "the heavenS") Is not a place "somewhere out there" people "go" to when their body dies.It is a realm of existence just as the physical realm is.Of course no one in THIS realm knows completely what the "other realm" is even though in one sense we exist in the same "bigger realm.

The closest analogy I can think of is a 2 dimensional cartoon.It is the realm of height and width but lacks depth.It is the creation of someone in the 3 dimensional realm.We can "communicate to it(in sorts) but it cannot perceive us at all(except for Homer Simpson in episode 233... ).We can "give" them hope that one day when holographs will breath life into them they can live in this realm also but until then ...they can't.

Yahoshua(Jesus) said some very simple and infinitely complex statements.The one that relates to this is...the kingdom of God(Kingdom of the heavens is the same thing..it is a realm) COMES WITHOUT OBSERVATION...it is neither here nor there but is IN you midst.

That sounds like hopeful mysticism and of course hardly anyone believes it.They are all waiting to die to "go" to heaven "somewhere out there" because they think(.. through indoctrination) that's what he said.The Truth is he said the basics of the most significant function of quantum physics.It is the double slit experiment that has been performed and anaylized so many times with always the same result.

When they shoot an electron though a slit when it is observed it is a particle.When it IS NOT observed it remains a wave that is neither here nor there in a fixed place in space or time.That is how things work.Particles(matter) exist when observed in 3 dimensions....when unobserved...waves that are neither here nor there in fixed positions of time and space.Will this conundrum ever be solved....in one sense it already has... we know it by evidence.What does not have any evidence at all is somewhere out there heaven.It is neither supported by Yahoshua, the scriptures or science.

Originally posted by logical7
do you think a non believer in hell teaching kids that hell is just a myth comes under indoctrination?

That question tells me that you have probably been indoctrinated to believe in hell.
(and yes ... I believe there is some kind of hell as well .. but not the fire and brimstone you think of)

Originally posted by logical7
Are you unindoctrinated out of a conservative christian belief or indoctrinated into a liberal secular belief?

I"m a liberal secularist according to you? Others on this board think I'm a raging conservative. It's all a matter of how you look at it I suppose.

Pretty much everyone on the planet gets indoctrinated with something.
Indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.

People who think man made global warming is real because Al Gore says so. Indoctrinated.
People who think God hates artificial birth control. Indoctrinated.
People who buy that only Baptists are going to heaven. Indoctrinated.
People who think God wants the world to be all Congregationalist, or Catholic, Or Amish, or Jewish, or Muslim or _____ fill in the blank with a religion. Indoctrinated.
People who are homophobic. Indoctrinated.
People who buy Muhammads unsubstantiated claim of heavenly visions. Indoctrinated.
People who think the left is tolerant. Indoctrinated.
People who think the right are compassionate. Indoctrinated.

If people used CRITICAL THINKING, then they wouldn't be indoctrinated. Critical thinking would kill the notion that God hates artificial birth control. Critical thinking would kill the notion that only Baptists are going to heaven. Critical thinking would kill the idea that God wants the whole world to be Jewish or Muslim. Critical thinking would show that there is no reason to fear homosexuals. Critical thinking would disprove Muhammads claim of heavenly visions. Critical thinking would show that the left is not tolerant and the right isn't compassionate. etc etc etc.

Everyone gets caught up in indoctrination at some point.
Sometimes the indoctrination actually gets it right.
But usually it doesn't.
Common sense and critical thinking kill indoctrination.
Unfortunately ... those are things severely lacking in the world.

reply to post by logical7


If you take out the part of evil punishment and make heaven and hell in a good way..You are still bribing them.

Hey this waits for you if your are good and this waits for you if your are bad.

What is the difference from telling kids to "be good" by saying "ill beat the F**king sh*t out of you if you don't behave"?

You question is kinda confusing OP, you threw a supposition in there too.

By imo, Indoctrination is when someone teaches something without other options and there is no choice but to learn it and live/act by it.

If a parent teaches their kids all religion and their good/bad i would not call that indoctrination. Thats education.

Indoctrination is not only for religion, you can get indoctrinated in many other ways.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

Belief in hell is nothing more then a scare tactic used for the very subject you're posting about.... DO you think a belief that hell exists leads one to being a better person? I do not... That belief leads to fear... superstition, and blindly following the person who claims to know the correct path to salvation from said mythical firey pit

thats your belief Akragon and i am not going to argue over it. I am talking of a neutral platform.

Are you sure hell does not exist? Are you not imposing you belief if you teach a kid that? isn't that the definition of indoctrination?

Nope... Im stating my belief which comes from simple logic...

A loving Father would not torture his child... Im not even a parent and i know this...

Yet i do not force anyone to take my stance on the issue... People will believe whatever they will...

I will not ever tell anyone what they "must" believe... Nor do I offer any threat towards those who agree or disagree with my position on said issue