The Issue of Misandry – 21st Century Social Conspiracy

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee
Not having a care for man and misandry are completely different.

WHAT?

Misandry /mɪˈsændri/ is the dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex).

en.wikipedia.org...

What would your definition be?

I notice that the definition that you have cited doesn't include apathy, which is what "not having a care" means.

That's it?

Semantics? I expected better.

\

It -isn't- semantics. Its logic.

Not caring about the plight of men and actively passing legislation en masse against men in a way that is different than what is being done to women are incredibly different concepts.

sigh. All I see are men who want war, and women who want to die.

If you listen to comedians(male) they dis their own gender that women are smarter. If you are married your stuff is regulated to the garage. Your stuff is no good and is thrown out. Less closet space. who is the one who gets the honey do list. You have fight this to save your sanity. why do men want a man cave to have peace. Men are conditioned to take this without a word.

Originally posted by celticdog
If you listen to comedians(male) they dis their own gender that women are smarter. If you are married your stuff is regulated to the garage. Your stuff is no good and is thrown out. Less closet space. who is the one who gets the honey do list. You have fight this to save your sanity. why do men want a man cave to have peace. Men are conditioned to take this without a word.

It seems that you have been conditioned to take this without a word. I don't really know anyone that lives like that.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

Yes well the reason they cant do that is because its wrong.

Absolute NONSENSE!

Let's take a look at this situation.

Me and my wife decide we are going to try and have children. We both agree that's what we want.


~Tenth

I was going to wait to weigh in on this thread but feel compelled to jump in here (I weigh in on the topic of misandry later).

I would say that 85% of pregnancies are not planned and/or not wanted. The example you give is specific and donesn't apply. The facts (facts) are that women carry the child and are RESPONSIBLE for it for twenty years into the future. Not that men shouldn't have the same level of responsiblitity - the fact is they don't.

Throughout history - men have 'sown their seed' and then just left the woman to fend for herself and her child on her own and our modern society is no different. Marriage (for the upper classes) was supposed to address this issue through complex kinship resonsiblity rules and more but it never was meant for everyday people.

When it comes to day-to-day life - women always have to make the decisions about having and caring for a child. It an ideal world both parents would be involved throughout the life of a child but it is not the case for the majority and thinking it is does a huge disservice to children everywhere.

reply to post by celticdog


Don't even get me started one the whole "man cave" thing. That drives me insane. Buy a house and have all your stuff relegated to one single room cause you think your wife is more important than you are.

Pathetic.

~Tenth

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee

 

So which is it, there is systematic cultural misandry, or men and women are equally represented in both the public and private sectors and within those two areas men and women have certain (mostly archaic) laws skewed either in favor of or against a certain demographic of your choosing?

It's neither. The point I was making is that women don't have it as bad as the media claims they do in 1st world nations like ours. Things are quickly becoming very equal in employment, political influence and wages.

So the argument that men still control everything isn't really true now is it? Which is why it's not a good argument to use against the idea that Misandry exists in our culture and nobody wants to talk about it.

~Tenth

But not pay - don't forget that. Jobs of equal value to a company - the man is usually paid more and sometimes considerably.

Great thread Tenth. As a straight white male I usually can't say anything on this subject without being called a "sexist pig" or a chauvinist, but I'm going to say something anyway.

When did equality become "some are more equal than others"?

I am all for equal rights, be it on issues or race, sex, religion, or sexual preference. I don't care what category you fall into, if you are the most qualified and most professional, you deserve to be hired. Any kind of affirmative action is wrong. None of those things should matter in the workforce.

Why can't people understand that it's not sexist or racist to choose the most qualified candidate. Why do the hardcore feminists see us as the enemy? What have I done to be discriminated against? I will support anyone's fight against discrimination, if that discrimination exists.

I had a friend who I served in the Navy with. He was a good husband and father. His wife left him while we were on deployment. His shore rotation was coming up, so once he got a shore duty job, he tried to get custody of his daughter, which he was denied. His wife was an alcoholic, and her boyfriend was abusive to her and my friend's daughter. She still retained custody. He will be going back to court to try and receive custody of his daughter soon (for the third time) and I hope that this time he has enough evidence of the mother's unfitness to be a parent.

Well, Star and Flag for you, Op.

Dear Tenth,

I've thought all night about this thread. At first I went away with a heavy sigh thinking - "there is really no way to communicate through these perceptions, is there?" The 'perceptions' being that of 'who is the greater victim - men or women.' What I see, through my limited eyes, is pain. Men hurt. Women hurt. People who are hurt are reacting to that in less than perfect ways - that is what I see.

In my life, I've experienced plenty of put-downs and outright sexism towards myself as a female. I know how that feels. I have those wounds. I know the disempowerment that can happen, at work, at school, on dates, when buying a car, in relationships - yes, I have overtly seen it and it is still part of our culture. It still exists today. When I hear your thoughts on misandry, I wonder if you see that misogyny is still alive and well?

Does that give me a right to turn it around and do the reverse? No. That does nothing for me or anyone else except create a society of backlash against backlash ad infinitum, with neither side ever feeling heard, understood or experiencing healing.

I would say that women are in a time of struggle with this issue. There is a rebellion against the images we have been taught we need to live up to - airbrushed superwomen who never grow old, who are never not beautiful, who are both capable of full time work and raising perfect families with well-adjusted and empowered children, who bounce back immediately after pregnancy with no scars or bodily changes to show for it...blah...blah...blah.

When I was growing up, it was all about attraction = women's power. That was what I learned. That was really all we had, or so we were taught. So now women are struggling to be fully empowered beings without trying to live up to impossible standards, sometimes creating more impossible standards for themselves and men in the process. (i.e. "We can do it all on our own! We don't need men!" "Men need to turn over all the power to us!")

I went to the Jezebel site you mentioned. I invite you to consider that Jezebel may not be the best place to talk to women about misandry. The women there are processing their anger - you are simply making a target out of yourself. I'm not saying it's right, but an analogy would be an extreme liberal or extreme conservative going into the chat room of their political opposite - they are not going to be welcomed with open arms. And I'm guessing I would have just as much luck trying to get men in a locker-room to not call each other a certain identifying female body-part whenever they weren't performing their best in sports?? Why is that a put-down with men in our culture?

As our culture goes through the right v. left, liberal v. conservative, religious v. secular polarizations which have so stalemated our ability to move in any real and substantive direction, so do men and women have their polarizations. There are many in the middle, working for equality of the sexes - fully acknowledging that it is a real thing, fully empowering both men and women and simply creating something better than the arm-wrestling of "who is Right and who is Wrong."

Are we better off clinging to misandry and misogyny and the wounds we feel from them? If not - why carry them with us? I'm not saying they don't exist - I know they do - but do we need to hold on to them and make them part of who we are?

My advice, given with all my heart, is to look to the creation of that "something better" - to not get caught up in the battle but consciously extract yourself from it, rise above it and perceive all the good work being done by men and women of good heart and conscience to create a new world of mutual respect, understanding and care. Why give your time to stupid sit-coms (I don't!) that portray life in ways that hurt? Why focus on what you see as wounds coming from anonymous women on forum boards? - you can't change them or their pain in that moment - instead I would invite you to try to work towards perceiving the good, the balanced, the life-affirming and harmonizing forces that DO actually exist in the world. This is the advice I give myself, as well ;-) and what I hope to live up to. I am the mother of two boys - I want this world for them.

I challenge you (as I challenge myself) to build something better while letting other people be where they are at. How can we do that? How can we let go of perceived wounds and simply create what we want to be in the world? Why not start that movement and see who joins you? I believe that is the way out of the pain. That is the way better laws are created for both men and women. That is the way to better relationships, less divorce, happier families. That is the way out of the crazy for all of us.

most sincere peace to you, Tenth,

AB

Originally posted by okayimhere

Originally posted by smyleegrl
Men tend to be physically stronger, while women tend to be more nurturing.

I emphatically disagree that women tend to be more nurturing. That is an archaic stereotype, a particularly irritating one, that has been promoted in mass media for as long as I can remember. In reality, however, it is rarely -- RARELY -- the case that women are the more nurturing, caring, or sensitive gender.

And just where have you gotten this information? Or have you just decided on it based on your personal experience? Do you think your personal experience is everyone's elses experience? Grow up a bit please. The facts are that woman tend (not always) but tend to be more nuturing and it is largely do to hormones.

reply to post by FyreByrd


Actually equal pay for equal work already exists. When you factor in things like length of time in the workforce, positions etc, women make the same as men do now.

The stats about gender gap in pay is very overblown.

ETA:

Myth 1: Women get less pay for equal work. The spurious assertion that women are paid 77 cents for a man’s wage dollar comes from comparing the earnings of all full-time men with those of all full-time women.

The comparison is bogus, for two reasons. First, it lumps together men and women who work different numbers of hours — any hours above 35 hours per week. On average, full-time women work fewer hours than full-time men, often because they prefer it.

When comparisons are made between men and women who work 40 hours per week, women make 87% of men’s earnings, according to the Labor Department. For men and women who work 30 to 34 hours a week, women make more, 109% of men’s earnings.

Second, the gap claim averages for each gender earnings from many and disparate vocations. For example, it averages women who work as social workers with men who work as investment bankers; female elementary school teachers with male engineers; and male loggers with female administrative assistants.

Source

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I wish people could understand that, Tenth. I always hear people going on about how women are paid less, when it just isn't true.

reply to post by dave_welch


It's just so aggravating.

Women are fighting over something they got like 10 years ago. I don't even know how this propaganda still exists.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Don't even get me started one the whole "man cave" thing. That drives me insane. Buy a house and have all your stuff relegated to one single room cause you think your wife is more important than you are.

Pathetic.

That's ONE way to view a man cave, I suppose. For me, it is different. My wife has her one room where I have little say on the decor. It's her scrap/craft room. Then, I have one room where she has little say, and that is the man cave. (Can you guess which one of these is done, and which one is "in progress"?)

Yep, we did hers first. Happy wife = happy life. Lucky for me, we're both pretty nerdy, so our home kind of reflects that, but in a tasteful way. We agreed on most rooms, some are more her idea, some are more mine, others are simply born out of finding one or two things to build the room theme around. Our living room has a medieval theme, for example, but in a classy way. My man cave, on the other hand, will have black walls, red accents, some red rope lighting, some Star Wars and Star Trek ships on the wall, and some hanging models over the bar, etc. Her scrap/craft room, on the other hand, looks like something out of Wisteria Lane.

Men are really the last thing left that is socially ok to pick on, it seems though. The shows in the OP are great examples, as are numerous commercials. Why? Because we let them. We don't write angry letters. We simply don't bother. Should we? I don't know. It doesn't really affect me all that much, so far. The double standard with the Twilight pic is funny, but yeah, pretty weird when you think about it. I mean, I can think that a 17yr old Britney Spears in a schoolgirl outfit is hot, but if I voice it before she's 18, I'm creepy? Yet a forty-something mom can ogle a 17yr old guy with his shirt off and it's somehow cool? Weird.

Maybe many men are like me. On the job, I can be confrontational, get the job done, etc. At home, I don't want to be like that, so I'm not. So I'm more willing to simply avoid the confrontations.... Until my stepson moved in, I lived with two women, so was used to being outnumbered, and being the fall guy. My step-daughter will move in soon, so I guess I will be outnumbered again, hehe...

I think it has to do with the way we view arguments.

Women - They have to WIN the argument by having their point agreed with
Men - We WIN the argument when it is over, and we're back to the status quo

We'll eat a little crow if it means a quick return to the status quo.

Originally posted by celticdog
If you listen to comedians(male) they dis their own gender that women are smarter. If you are married your stuff is regulated to the garage. Your stuff is no good and is thrown out. Less closet space. who is the one who gets the honey do list. You have fight this to save your sanity. why do men want a man cave to have peace. Men are conditioned to take this without a word.

That is wierd. In our family, it is I who have no possessions, or almost. My husband collects stuff and hoards, he also has a way of spreading his stuff around which sort of claims the area as his own. He throws out other peoples things- no matter what they are- even important looking letters for others, he throws it out without thinking twice.
I have one fifth of our closet, as he slowly took over the rest- much of that is for his huge shoe collection (I own exactly three pairs of shoes). I am a woman. Luckily, I am not very materialistic, I am happy to have a roof over my head and not go to bed at night with an empty stomach.

I have never given my husband a list of things to do, I do not tell him what to do and he does not tell me what to do. We are both adults.

Are you sure you weren't talking about moms with their adult sons clinging to home?

reply to post by Gazrok


I think an important lesson I take from your experience with your wife is that you both are very happy with each other. You both have very similar likes and that the spirit of compromise seems strong within both of you.

So much like my relationship, yours has the ability to define those normal gender roles or relationship specific stereotypes because it's a well nurtured and healthy relationship.

Part of the problem is that a lot of relationships today aren't like that. They are cookie cutter type relationships where the social norms and expectations given through the media re rigidly followed.

Currently, in that circumstance, society currently leads towards having the woman have the final say and men, as I said earlier are more likely to be made out as fools, procrastinators, near sighted and all the other qualities that make it difficult for you to trust them with anything.

This leads to a situation where men's culture is marginalized and put down and on the other side women's culture celebrated and encouraged.

Of course, what's on TV is almost more exaggerated than real life. However TV never makes that distinction. If you are exposed to something long enough, and see it done without any sort of repercussion, than you accept is as being the norm.

Much like the domestic spying of our citizens that's come up recently.

~Tenth

I want to thank the OP, awesome and dedicated post! Kudos and Bravo as well as ENCORE!

So my thoughts on this subject matter can be summed up simply, but followed up in depth.
This is a real occurrence, if you don't think so look around and see it happen right in front of your eyes. Not only are women looked over in situations that don't hold much concern, they are being looked over in situations that well could become an issue of national security and maybe all this sexual advertisement wasn't just a means to attract more consumers but a means to stimulate a society of people into behaving a certain way.

I mean what does any leader / idea starter try to do, get others to follow them by action. Best way to do that is to make it popular to act the way you want them to act. Question is, why would one extreme be replaced by another and be thought it would turn out different, that's the definition of stupid.

It's about time women get a bigger place in the workplace, as well in general but that also means they have to stop expecting all the other things that used to define them as women that they expected from men. Since some of those actions would prove to be subservient and almost pet like. Certain gotta stop expecting men to talk to women if the women is going to be making more, honestly think about that for a sec, are we heading to a huge issue of population decrease through mental manipulation on the very aspect of making babes? Even wanting too?

I am about equality, I am about justice, I am also about balance, and to take one thing from one side of the boat you better be adding something back to the side you have taken from. Balance goes both ways.

There is such a double standard between men and women that it is ridiculous. And it is not just a battle of the sexes. This same double standard exists between members of different races as well. To describe what I mean, do you think it would be okay for a white person to create a white entertainment channel, or form a group focused on the advancement of white people? The same philosophy is present between the two sexes as well. And what has happened to society is described well. I have always called it the nanny-state, and it is the result of women complaining about every little thing.

Have you noticed that when something happens that men would simply shrug off, there will be some woman out there who MUST make a big deal about it. Always. And this is exactly why masculinity has disappeared to a great degree in our society. I really enjoyed reading your post, and it is in line with what I myself believe. I even learned a great deal. Good job.

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
There is such a double standard between men and women that it is ridiculous. And it is not just a battle of the sexes. This same double standard exists between members of different races as well. To describe what I mean, do you think it would be okay for a white person to create a white entertainment channel, or form a group focused on the advancement of white people? The same philosophy is present between the two sexes as well. And what has happened to society is described well. I have always called it the nanny-state, and it is the result of women complaining about every little thing.

Have you noticed that when something happens that men would simply shrug off, there will be some woman out there who MUST make a big deal about it. Always. And this is exactly why masculinity has disappeared to a great degree in our society. I really enjoyed reading your post, and it is in line with what I myself believe. I even learned a great deal. Good job.

Would it be okay if a white person owned Black Entertainment Television, because Sumner Redstone has been the owner of BET for years.

Well, I have taken part in many discussions on the subject of predjudice against men in current american society- I think I even started a thread on it once!

But this is becoming such a flame fest against women, I am feeling provoked. The false characterizations of what women are and how they are are becoming more and more outragious in each page!

This is what led to the problem- people who were oppressed focused so much on their oppressors that they became them. Now they are the oppressors.

And if I continue to follow and focus on this fest of hatred, I will become the same. I'll be pushed to the other side of the extreme.

But I leave with this thought-
Men and women symbolize and personify different aspects of being to me, both equally important. Partly, women channel the energy of socialization, of togetherness and collective force... of the collective consciousness and culture, of the experience of love which melds separate into one- integration.

Men channel the energy of self consciousness, of being whole unto self, separate from other, the force of the individual, and of boundries and hierarchies between individuals.

Frankly, the best way for a person to develop self consciousness and boundry is through adversity and opposition. Opposition with others, opposition with the collective society.

The guys that are whining and complaining that society isn't making it easier on them? That women are so darn scary and dominating? That they are being brainwashed to believe they are not very intelligent or valuable?

THAT is not being very masculine. Maybe the dominating female is just your own female side, not anyone outside. The real men are perfectly able to face this culture and affirm who they are and what they are, and live it and be recognized as such.