Personal Responsability and The Story of Jesus

Be back on to respond later typing this from iPhone.

reply to post by winofiend


Ok, but what if that implies being as in that i am the Christ, while being myself? How would that change me if i realized that, what kind of affect would that realization have on me?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Why do we need to be something special in order to make a difference? Why can't we forge a utopia with the creative power of these human hands? We don't need to be gods. We don't need to be Christs. Just need to believe that we, as human beings, can do it. Not enough people do believe it, however. It's a shame.

I dont think its about being special or making a difference. If i become more then the world then making a difference is nullified by that. We probably can forge a utopia but what if utopia was all about a choice? The choice of acceptance and accepting that you are it?

Great thread. Until recently, preachers, pastors, the Catholic Church, and Christians in general took The Bible to be a moral guide, nothing more.

It's only relatively recently (last 20-30 years or so) that Christians have suddenly switched to accepting The Bible as a literal book of what needs to happen.

This trend seemed to pick up steam once archaeologists started to discover locations metioned in The Bible and digging up cities and towns that the stories are based in.

However, people neglect to realize that the best stories told are the ones that use known landmarks and towns within them to give a good focal point, and just because a known place is mentioned in a story doesn't make the story true.

After all, many movies and stories are set in well known locations - we don't think that just because we know where New York is that "The Avengers" or any other movie or book set there is real, do we?

reply to post by babybunnies


I look at it like computer programmers look at an algorithm.

Im not saying im a christian, lets be clear and its not because i stand against Christianity in any way. What i'm saying is that each person hold the power to realize in a true form that they are christ. With that im not claiming to be christ i am saying that if i had a true realization of being the christ then i would be.


I dont if that can be related to Christianity or a denial or not denial i dont know about that or what the implications are im open for discussion about that. I am kind looking at it more objectively. I may be wrong however but its still a fun discussion.

reply to post by onequestion

The story of Jesus is a story of personal responsibility and it is not meant to be anything but a guide. It is to guide you to the path of understanding that we are all the Jesus figure inherently. I am the one who has to take personal responsibility over everything. I must represent god. I must be god. I am Jesus.

Wouldn't it help if you had actually read the whole story of Jesus first before you made that claim?

There's too much detail and prophecy that's been fulfilled in the Bible to brush it off as a simple philosophy.

reply to post by babybunnies

It's only relatively recently (last 20-30 years or so) that Christians have suddenly switched to accepting The Bible as a literal book of what needs to happen.

Where do some of you come up with such silly notions?

This type of thinking that you should take on the weight of the world on your shoulders and accept yourself as Christ and take on full responsibility, is what leads to the "blaming the victim" and "self-pity" mentality.

If something messed up happens to you it's "YOUR" fault, you did it to yourself, take responsibility and fix it no matter how hard it is. If someone causes you to suffer, it's your fault for allowing it to happen.

I guess that is somewhat true, but keeping the victim with such thoughts will bring about self-loathing.


It is better to promote freedom by looking at the possibilities and potentials, saying for example:

"Yeah , what happened to you was bad, but instead of focusing on what you CAN'T do, what CAN you do?"

reply to post by onequestion


Why do you feel that you think God is making you Jesus or that you are becoming Jesus? Why not Mohammed or Buddah?

Originally posted by Akragon


That's actually correct as well to an extent...

this life is a test... more like a school...

Though Jesus was the one who set the standard... he wasn't a student like the rest of us...

he was the teacher...

My life is not a test it is a gift.
I am learning but there is no test.
I agree with the OP on personal responsibility and think SELF reform comes before world reform.
No test leave the testing for testing those Canadian Chicago pizza pies.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by onequestion

 

Ok, this is heresy according to mainstream religion in any case, but quite interesting.

Christ was crucified and died a brutal death aged 33.

I don't understand why anyone would want to become Christ (even if was possible for a single human to perform mythological acts, or assume omnipotent responsibilities like the Biblical Jesus).

Isn't it suicidal?

If you want to be Jesus, then where would you like to be whipped, tortured and willingly nailed to a cross, with a crown of nasty thorns?


Must it be Jerusalem, or is the local park OK?

Perhaps this is all meant more mystical and metaphorical, although so far it seems like it is possible to be like Jesus, either as a religious or historical figure.

edit on 19-6-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

jesus was the persona..
christ was the individual's state of consciousness.
jesus died on the cross.
christ certainly did not die on the cross
christ (which is non physical) consciousness will be achieved and be natural to all individuals when this earth's woes are ended and a "new earth" appears.
terms/words are difficult, hope you get my drift. the usual interpretation of the bible as most churches follow, differ little from the propagandized version of centuries past.
jesus saying "if you have seen me you have seen the father" and "you must overcome as i have overcome" are interesting and bare studying.

reply to post by onequestion


the story of jesus is one of the scapegoat.

you steal a car, and an innocent man takes the blame and goes to jail for you. you were saved from punishment.

you sin, so you place that sin on an innocent man and he is killed. you are saved from punishment.

a mass killer (pick your favorite) can be in heaven with you so long as they "repent" and "accept jesus" before they die. however, a holy man like the dalai lama will go to hell because he rejects jesus and christianity.

you dont have to pay for you sins in christianity. you dont have to stand up and defend yourself.

at least with the old gods you are judged based on your life and actions, not your devotion.

Originally posted by BDBinc

Originally posted by Akragon


That's actually correct as well to an extent...

this life is a test... more like a school...

Though Jesus was the one who set the standard... he wasn't a student like the rest of us...

he was the teacher...

My life is not a test it is a gift.
I am learning but there is no test.
I agree with the OP on personal responsibility and think SELF reform comes before world reform.
No test leave the testing for testing those Canadian Chicago pizza pies.

Can't a test be a gift... or vice versa?

Originally posted by onequestion
Hi, first let me start by saying these few bits. I don't have much to substantiate this claim but my own observation and experience. Secondly, it is short and to the point.

After many many many many hours of reading and study and lecture, after many many many spiritual experiences from that which we do not speak of to meditation, sweat lodge ceremony, wicca ritual, satanic ritual, church, and i dont even know what else im missing i have come to a point where i hold firm to one belief and here it is in a nutshell...

(when i say "i am" anything what i mean is i am speaking as if i were you not myself, im not making any claims here im just presenting a theory)

The story of Jesus is a story of personal responsibility and it is not meant to be anything but a guide. It is to guide you to the path of understanding that we are all the Jesus figure inherently. I am the one who has to take personal responsibility over everything. I must represent god. I must be god. I am Jesus.

Now, take this into consideration as if you believe it and see if you can handle that responsibility. I know for sure im not fully explaining my theory. If you ask the right questions and get into a legitimate conversation maybe we can take this thread further then what it is right now. If not, your loss not mine, pearls before swine.

..it seems to me, friend, that after your 'many many ' time spent trying,
you should see that what you actually have tried, is to get rid of ego -
but you cóuldnt: and now, you re " giving up "

because the ' personal responsibility thing ' is in fact that giving up.

i state to you,
that nothing or no one in or above this world, can frée you from ego : but He.

you live within a jar - the ego - floating in an endless Consciousness

and though Evil / ascended masters / witchcraft / churchianity may prómise you that
they can free you, they cant do nothing but 'enlarge your jar a little '
by inflating it with some non-dualistic consciousness

...but you will *always* stay their slave they Feed upon.

*only He * can break that jar.

- if you d wánt to.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by onequestion

 

Well I think one would need some scriptural evidence for such a stance, and not just a background of having experimented with a lot of other faiths.

What is personal responsibility?
How much of life is fated by God, if He knows and controls everything?
How much is life then guided by circumstance and experience?
How much do the gods (in the ancient Greek version of the puzzle) or God enable us to make equal moral and ethical decisions based on our backgrounds?
If we are born in other countries with other religions, is that our responsibility?
If you're a Muslim in Saudi Arabia, is it your responsibility if you don't know the currently fashionable Jesus?
Really?

At least according to the "reborn" US Christianity, Jesus teaches responsibility only as far as accepting Him as your Savior.
If you accept Jesus, and you're a serial killer moments before your execution, you will be saved.
If you repent before death, no matter what you've done, you will be saved.
On the other hand, a good Hindu saint that has only performed good deeds will burn in hell.

Now how does such a philosophy talk about personal responsibility?
It's all about faith in a blood sacrifice that took the price for our sins.
This is the furthest thing from personal responsibility.

It may be very nice in some ways, but personal responsibility it is not.

edit on 19-6-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

It seems to me,from this post that your understanding of Christianity is every bit as superficial and misguided as that faction of Christianity commonly known as "born again" Christians. I'm not sire whether your post was directed at that "faction", or if the "pushy", "loud" nature of certain "born again Christians" h.as you believing that what they believe. I think its safe to say, most all U.S. Christians feel those who follow that version of Christianity might as well be following a completely different religion. Ask any of the majority of Christians in the US or elsewhere, and we actually have a hard time believing there are people who think the intent is as you and the "born agains" understand it. Your questions about being born in Saudi Arabia, for example, make sense if discussing with a fire& brimstone, believe-as-i-do-or-else style Christian, but don't really fit the OP's idea at all. OP is basically referring to Jesus' "story" being that of an archetype for us to follow. That doesn't mean the same lesson isn't contained, or to be found elsewhere. Maybe the twngent was just lost on me, but the response, IMO, seemed more like an argument (a valid one at that, don't get me wrong) against that minority of Christendom primarily within the US, typically thought of as the furthest thing from true Christianity by most Christians, and the rest of the world in general.

Who knows, maybe they're right, and a highly superficial, literal, and extremely-selective interpretation of the Bible is accurate, but, such a belief system seems not to be at all what the OP is referring to.

Sorry if my response came off snippy at all, it just bugs me that because the type of "Christians" you're referring to seem to be loudest in terms of lambasting all others, most hateful, most anti-Christian people most people have ever come across, there is this growing belief that their belief system (which is totally out of whack with that of most Christians) is what Christianity really is about. It is unfortunate, because only a very smallercentage of people could ever get any spiritual value out of such a (IMO) kindergarten-level understanding of the Bible.

reply to post by dogstar23

I think those are good points, and of course I cannot say what is right or wrong to believe.
It seems to me that people have highly personalized interpretations of Jesus.
Even one couple I know that goes to the same church seems to me like the wife has a totally different image of Jesus than her husband.

The OP is based on a personal theory, and it is not labelled or rooted in any tradition, Biblical scripture or even Gnostic or New Age versions of Jesus.
This does allow for very broad responses.
More conservative and literal groups would say their version is based on scripture, such as John 14: 6.
Even here personal responsibility is not very clear-cut, and hovers somewhere between repentance and supernatural power through prayer to do so, or constantly telling everyone "Don't Judge".
One can also say that everything in the Bible about Jesus is wrong or mistranslated (and somehow generally untranslatable), but then why bother with Jesus and the Bible in the first place?
Why not then follow something like LaVeyan Satanism, which is very focused on personal responsibility?
That's not to say that fundamentalism is correct, because it is always selective in the texts it wants to apply to society.
I'd just like to hear more of the alternative readings, rather than to simply say it is totally wrong, or not the "real" Christianity.
At least Biblically the responsibility is the great commission to spread salvation, even through martyrdom, and giving to the poor, arguably to the point of giving away everything (which neither literalistic nor metaphorical streams do in any case).

Of course "personal responsibility" goes beyond religion, or issues where religion has answers.
If an impoverished person poaches in a game park, then is he as guilty as a rich person?
Should land that was possibly taken during colonialism as productive farmland be returned, even if it endangers food security for an entire country?

People have to make ethical choices between lesser and greater evils all the time, or choices between immediate survival and long term consequences.
No human can simply take "responsibility for everything".

So today I can say I'm a "little Jesus" and I take responsibility for everything.
Apart from then having a little God complex, what does that mean?
If there's an earthquake in China, is that my fault?
So that's where I'm unclear on what is practically meant in the OP.
If it's "responsibility" as in if you want something to happen don't just pray, but get off your butt and do something about it; or if you don't want cancer then quit smoking or eat better; or if you don't want HIV then have responsible sex then I'd agree with that view. Although, I'd never judge because I don't know the circumstances and not all misfortune is knowingly or deliberately self-inflicted, and luck or genes also play a role.
However, if it goes into theories where thoughts attract misfortune and people and natural disasters are blamed on negative feelings, then one has a more repressive world-view than the divine command theory.
In that case one would constantly have to check oneself for negative feelings, which sounds worse than staunch Calvinism.

Without a scriptural debate one first needs to ask: responsibility for what?
For example, if I want responsibility for spreading good in the world (apart from my survival) then that brings further moral and ethical questions.
What is good?
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, buy him a trawler and he may eat for longer, but if more people do that the fish-stocks will collapse (which they already are in our waters).
Considered responsibility about everything can also be so abstract that it ends up doing as little as possible.
Unfortunately that does pave the way for very rigid groups to assume power, who are convinced they are good, even when evidence often suggests otherwise.

To say "take responsibility" is a very Enlightenment thought, that not only views humans as essentially good, but also that they can be educated into doing good.
It can be very correct in one sense in religion (take responsibility for your sin) or very misguided (ultimately view yourself as God).

While I may have responded through the prism of what I consider "mainstream Christianity", responsibility is a question going back to ancient Greece and is also found in many other religions.

In some Eastern sects there are also gurus who teach they are gods or the next best thing to God, however judging by the behavior they often don't take this responsibility very seriously, although some might argue that a god or prophet can do and command whatever he likes.
If a god-man wants to sleep with all the good-looking women and men, and squirrel all the cash into his personal bank account then I suppose it's his right as a god.
In that sense - be your own prophet or god.
At least you'll know where the cash goes.

reply to post by Akragon


"Can't a test be a gift... or vice versa? "

How?

( can I have the thick crust judgmental deity watching with extra sauce?).

reply to post by onequestion


I am using the "unity consciousness" model of existence currently, and what you say is true. But it is also true that you are Josef Stalin. No worry, there is no judgment for one whose eyes are open. That said, Jesus gave us a much better example, don't you think? I am responsible. It's been in my sig for years.

reply to post by seamus


I can appreciate the unity consciousness model. I see us as more of a breeding ground then an actual unity consciousness. Kind of like if you do choose the path in this life you will die and come back as another person on another path. Everyone once in a while the earth happens to create and pass on an aware soul. Thats the creative process i see happening here. Although at the same token i see that everyone also becomes an aware soul. I see this happening on a scale of infinity where the world cycles back to the point where each life is lived perfectly through an infinite number of probabilities that express themselves untill 1 works out. I think you can see where i take that.

This would end with everything and everybody forming a unique consciousness aware of its core being molded and developed by the universe through the creative process that we currently are observing here on earth.

reply to post by halfoldman


When i say responsibility im talking about the fact that if you can accept that you are the exact entity that is represented by the christ figure. Im not talking about sin or any of this. My premise is that i am the christ and the christ is a representation of the figure Jesus or Bhudda or any of that but its representative of the fact that i am the spirit embodiment of the christ consciousness. At the very core of my being i am christ.

I am taking the responsibility to accept this as me true nature im not talking about responsibility in its more commonly used form.