Personal Responsability and The Story of Jesus

reply to post by onequestion


Your pretty close;

Jesus said:

"And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these." Mark 12:30-31 NLV

Why did Jesus say the second one is "equally" important? Or some other translations say "The second commandment is like the first one." What we understand by this, is that by showing your love to others, is showing your love to God. So no your not actually Jesus or God to someone, but your are an ambassador of Him. Honestly from what I read on your OP, I got the sense that you didn't really think you are God, if you really do then you have a fundamental doctrinal error, but if your looking in the direction I think you are [the one this post is pointing at], then your spot on!

reply to post by honested3


I think people get mixed messages and believe that they are god. I dont think thats right. I think god is, i dont know, unimaginable. But on the other hand, being this sort of proxy like, umm, this thing that is so, i guess encapsulated by the love of this unimagineable god that we kind of take on his nature by proxy. Love isnt really it either its almost like its something else.

This may sound tinfioly.....but seeing the life of Jesus as if it were mine in the past makes me ashamed of how little I am today...but encouraged to know the greatness I could be part of again....that theres a way to share and make current the experiential relationship between Creator and me...in a timeless way.. as part of an immortal being thats been made available since the death and resurrection of Jesus....actually living as the Christ today but also in some way living 2000 plus years ago.

reply to post by onequestion

No, it's not fear for most people, because they might appreciate Jesus, or they might try to be like Him in certain respects, but they don't literally want to be Jesus, or imagine they could ever be Jesus.

Now a central part of what Jesus experienced is an early and an horrifically slow death.
At least the Biblical Jesus.

If one one literally wants to be like Jesus then one has to face that consequence and experience.
Either that, or one just knit-picks aspects of Jesus like everybody else.

I also can't see how that part could have been smuggled in from elsewhere, since it's the crucial part, or memorable crux of the narratives.

So are you talking about what is called Christ conscious aka the I AM presence? These seem similar to what you are talking about. You reach these stages at a certain point on the road to enlightenment after you have done away with your ego. When you give up the need to try and control everything and start using your intuition more and more until it becomes natural you enter a state of grace. At that point you start to experience more synchronicity a and manifestations of thought. Is this close to what you are talking about?

I've got some experience with this way of living. I could go into more detail. I think Christ was a blue print of how to live our lives but there are people all around the world who have reached that level of enlightenment I think Gods will is more like a force that permiates all levels of existence (as above so below) which means it can influence things on a microscopic and macroscopic level ( which is why we don't notice it except maybe in retrospect) and the ego blocks that influence/force.

The I AM or Christ conscious is your embodyment of god. Everyone has a unique IAM presence and once you enter it you start to notice Gods influence on every part of reality. I believe this also affects your physical body. Now I don't subscribe to the whole New Age theory (but I do believe the best lies are mostly true) but if you look up Asension symptoms I believe that is what it feels like to begin assuming the I AM presence.

I don't believe in any religion or teachings only than what I have personally experienced (which has been quite a bit). I think many people have followed the right path for the wrong reasons or have completely lost faith and become jaded at the fault of the ego (and I believe this was done on purpose). What ego dose is try to grasp and control a understanding of a greater reality using only a individuals limited perspective so you don't truly see what's going on.

My post was supposed to end at the first paragraph but I started ranting lol. Good thread star and flag. I was having a conversation about this with someone earlier today

hm...me kinda thinks those two terms "jesus" and "personal responsibility" don't go hand in hand.

Jesus proposes only to believe in him, and you shall be saved...Doesn't that take away somewhat this notion of personal responsibility ?

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
hm...me kinda thinks those two terms "jesus" and "personal responsibility" don't go hand in hand.

Jesus proposes only to believe in him, and you shall be saved...Doesn't that take away somewhat this notion of personal responsibility ?

Well Jesus took on the responsibility of everyone's sin. So all the wrong in the world had a personal affect on him. And with that he tried to make the world a better place and show people the way to enlightenment. He thought of this endeavor as his personal mission. I don't think it's enough to simply believe he existed you also have to follow what he was teaching (and that's doesn't mean he is the only way to enlightenment) but if you look at the core of what he says you will find that their are many other teachings that coincide with that. You don't have to want to save the whole world if you don't want to but if you apply the core of his teachings and others to your life then you will find enlightenment.

It seems to me when people think of enlightenment they try to add things to there life. But it's really a striping down of your beliefs to the core and removing all of the unessecary things ( which includes certain beliefs about reality and your ego) so it's really a subtraction of things that weigh you down spiritually so you can more freely experience reality

Originally posted by onequestion

What is personal responsibility?

What i mean by this statement is basically accepting yourself as the Christ.

Why?
Why not be YOU and be the sort of person YOU know is good, decent, honest, forgiving when required and someone others can rely on?

Why be some guy that lived 2000 years ago and said nice things. Be a guy NOW and say nice things.

Why put so much 'faith' in a man that is now only a myth, an idea, and more importantly, wasn't even all that good if you look at the entirety of his life.

Why? Because god? Because the bible?

That's just sad. It implies that without god or the bible or jesus, you can't be a good person.

reply to post by winofiend


I think that's what she's trying to say. When she says The Christ she doesn't mean to be Jesus literally but to assume responsibility the same way he did

Originally posted by asher

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
hm...me kinda thinks those two terms "jesus" and "personal responsibility" don't go hand in hand.

Jesus proposes only to believe in him, and you shall be saved...Doesn't that take away somewhat this notion of personal responsibility ?

Well Jesus took on the responsibility of everyone's sin. So all the wrong in the world had a personal affect on him. And with that he tried to make the world a better place and show people the way to enlightenment. He thought of this endeavor as his personal mission. I don't think it's enough to simply believe he existed you also have to follow what he was teaching (and that's doesn't mean he is the only way to enlightenment) but if you look at the core of what he says you will find that their are many other teachings that coincide with that. You don't have to want to save the whole world if you don't want to but if you apply the core of his teachings and others to your life then you will find enlightenment.

It seems to me when people think of enlightenment they try to add things to there life. But it's really a striping down of your beliefs to the core and removing all of the unessecary things ( which includes certain beliefs about reality and your ego) so it's really a subtraction of things that weigh you down spiritually so you can more freely experience reality

Well, it's obviously about how you interpret things. If I commit a crime, and somebody else takes on the consequences of my act, than how is that taking responsibility ?

You can perhaps argue that Jesus wanted to show the way...by taking responsibility and the punishment...but it kinda goes against the religious doctrine. The doctrine states..."those that believe in me, shall be saved"...and according to many religious folks...it really is that simple. You can commit crimes, but if you repent and believe in "salvation" (symbolism of crucified Christ), than you are forgiven and can go to "heaven".

Where is personal responsibility in this ?

Our human laws are somewhat more about taking responsibility. Because, if someone commits a crime knowingly, he will probably serve time...even if he repents. Courts don't give you a free pass for murder just because you are repentant. They could give you a free pass perhaps if you're rich, but that's a whole 'nother story. Criminals don't really fear God...they fear the law...well...most of them anyway, because it makes them take responsibility for their actions.

I find this pretty disturbing. People thinking they can do whatever they want...and get away with it...on the basis of them believing in salvation.

For me...not the sole belief in God, but belief in religious doctrine, takes away the personal responsibility. Because I'm sure God didn't nuke Sodom and Gomora, because there were gays there. I'm sure the all forgiving Jesus and his father would have forgiven them for being gay. After all...they are still his creation, aren't they?

Perhaps the OP is right...perhaps Jesus really wanted to lead by example...but I fear...he has been grossly misunderstood about what his sacrifice means. To us, it apparently means...that any deed can be justified or forgiven, because he died for us. I doubt that was his intention.

reply to post by winofiend

That's just sad. It implies that without god or the bible or jesus, you can't be a good person.

Indeed, that's what many religious people claim. I also find it sad...and...lacking in personal responsibility.

It seems many people only do good things if they are threatened. Unless there is a notion of eternal damnation hanging over their heads, you are doomed to be evil. This also negates the stated God's greatest gift to us - FREE WILL.

Isn't it all a case of simple crude translations of the bible that have led us to this point. I'm no theologian but I know that the first translation of the bible wasn't until the early 1600s and who knows what was mistranslated in the version that most western Christians believe in.

Jesus says he is a son of god, but in the King James Bible its translated as the son of god. Big difference.

reply to post by onequestion


My theory is based on new genetic evidence, and the ancient wisdom/historical evidence, found back in our ancient religious books. They evidence explains the where the story of human creation from the book of genesis, and knowledge to be able to pass the information to us ( The ability to at least now how to identify genetic material, passed on from the earliest beginning of human evolution/creation all the way to the people that finally wrote it down. And even add warnings for future generations which they should not be able to be even aware of, according to our ideas about human intelligence and the beginning societies, about 7000 years ago.)
Another thing is that they would have to be present, or born from the same line of man, to be able to tell about the events that happened.
Jesus might be one of this early advanced society, or actually earlier form of man. They ( as in people that live right now ) also talk about Jesus ending up in the Americas and tell the same things to the people there. Or someone just like him.

The evidence is pretty clear about what happened, and in what order and place. The complexity might shock you, but I hope you can find your answers there.

You are always welcome to ask questions. I will answer them to my best understanding, and usually can provide the evidence I found to support what I think happened.

The link I'll post here will guide you to everything I found on the recent identification of the human genome. However I posted it in an earlier thread, and I am trying to get as much people introduced to it. That's why I link to a reply on another member. You can go from there.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What questions do you have ? I might be able to guide you through the information, that might answer your question.

Well, it's obviously about how you interpret things. If I commit a crime, and somebody else takes on the consequences of my act, than how is that taking responsibility ?

You can perhaps argue that Jesus wanted to show the way...by taking responsibility and the punishment...but it kinda goes against the religious doctrine. The doctrine states..."those that believe in me, shall be saved"...and according to many religious folks...it really is that simple. You can commit crimes, but if you repent and believe in "salvation" (symbolism of crucified Christ), than you are forgiven and can go to "heaven".

Where is personal responsibility in this ?

Our human laws are somewhat more about taking responsibility. Because, if someone commits a crime knowingly, he will probably serve time...even if he repents. Courts don't give you a free pass for murder just because you are repentant. They could give you a free pass perhaps if you're rich, but that's a whole 'nother story. Criminals don't really fear God...they fear the law...well...most of them anyway, because it makes them take responsibility for their actions.

I find this pretty disturbing. People thinking they can do whatever they want...and get away with it...on the basis of them believing in salvation.

For me...not the sole belief in God, but belief in religious doctrine, takes away the personal responsibility. Because I'm sure God didn't nuke Sodom and Gomora, because there were gays there. I'm sure the all forgiving Jesus and his father would have forgiven them for being gay. After all...they are still his creation, aren't they?

Perhaps the OP is right...perhaps Jesus really wanted to lead by example...but I fear...he has been grossly misunderstood about what his sacrifice means. To us, it apparently means...that any deed can be justified or forgiven, because he died for us. I doubt that was his intention.

I agree. What you said is why religion is so messed up today. But I don't believe he took responsibility for the actions of people. He took it upon himself to show them what they were doing wrong and made it his responsibility to share his knowledge about enlightenment I don't think he died for our sins but he died because of our sins. Just like a parent is responsible for teaching their child but teaches that child that he is responsible for his own actions. I agree that his sacrifice has been misunderstood. Religion is being used as a tool to deceive people and so is the ego.

When I say he took on responsibility for everyone's sin I mean he saw how the world was as a whole and decided it was his responsibility to do something about it not taking responsibility for everyone's actions but for there lack of knowledge. dose that makes sense? I don't really like talking about the Christian aspect of this topic because I'm not a Christian I'm more into metaphysics

reply to post by woodwardjnr


You talk about the first translation from Latin and Greek to English ?

I like to add, that the Greek version had to be translated from Hebrew which was a translation from Aramaic, if I remember right.
The meaning of Hebrew words are often used for multiple meanings. If I remember right.
This means that the Greek translation of the old testament, was based on what they thought, or wanted it to say what they thought it should say, and victim of the interpretation of those that translated it. The problem is that the context of a sentence or text, can be completely misunderstood, or bend to their wishes.

Which I think is the biggest cause, of the numerous different religious ideas and believes for Christians today.
Those numbers of different Christian sects, have been greatly reduced, when The earliest leaders of the Roman Catholic church, by the order of Emperor Constantine If I remember correct, to make up a list of the various religious books, gospels etc.
The reason for this was to have all of Christianity united, and with the same believes and bible as every other Christian. Without this it would not be possible to create a centralized power, that had the ability to influence or manipulate all people in favor of the Imperial common good.

They left out a large number of these. Like for example :

-The book of Enoch
-The gospel of Thomas / Maria Magdalena / Judas.
-The book of jubilees

Etc. I will now provide a link you can find a list of all of them, and they present the option to read them all as well, by linking you to the individual books themselves. Enjoy !

The Apocrypha Index

I can not say that I am completely right about everything. I wrote it as I remember by heart. I did present true information. I might be mistaken on the order of things.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Thanks, for the informative reply. I will have a look at your link. I really know very little about the bibles origins and translation process.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


You are welcome

I'm no scholar either, but I did a lot research, into my personal believes and why they didn't fit the way I was raised and attended a school that was Christian including their ways of teaching.

It made me discover way more then I bargained for...

I've got a talent for processing new information, to fit or rule out my earlier consumption of everything I remember.
Somehow I've seen stuff I imagined explaining a bigger picture... To get proven fact, or have showed great similarities.
This didn't came for free though, I learn best by falling, remember my mistakes and move on.

I guess I have no social life...

God speaks to me directly in my dreams. It's a booming male voice like in the movie "The Greatest Story Ever Told.

He doesn't say much. Mainly, ignore the fiction written by men and those that worship the written fiction.

From time to time, I ask for guidance in life, but he always replies; silence your mind and ask yourself --then you will know what to do. I believe that means I'm on my own in this life. I don't know what God says to other people but I'm 100% positive in the message that has been delivered to me. So far so good.

reply to post by InverseLookingGlass


You can find answers to your problems always in yourself. You may not be in a good position to do that, then you need some guidance.

Eventually it's always you that needs to come up with a solution.

reply to post by onequestion


Why do we need to be something special in order to make a difference? Why can't we forge a utopia with the creative power of these human hands? We don't need to be gods. We don't need to be Christs. Just need to believe that we, as human beings, can do it. Not enough people do believe it, however. It's a shame.

Star and flag for your audacity.